Why top 14?

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )
User avatar
PDaddy
Posts: 2073
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 4:40 am

Re: Why top 14?

Postby PDaddy » Sat Mar 20, 2010 2:01 am

If I got into UCLA and either Duke, Cornell or GULC, there's no question in my mind which one I would pick...UCLA! The rankings are misleading students into thinking there's a fault line between the bottom T14 schools and the other 6-12 schools that knock on the door. It's not just Vandy, UCLA, USC and Texas that get shafted; GWU, Minnesota, Illinois, N.D., WUSTL, Iowa, Fordham, and Emory could all lay claim to a theoretical T18 if they wanted to. BU and BC also have a gripe. Really, the "T30" would be the best "elite" ranking. It would be much more accurate.

There's little question that the schools ranked in the top 30 belong there. Wisconsin and UC-Hastings have been proud members of the club, and Ohio State has always been close, but a T30 club wrongfully dismisses the fewest schools.
Last edited by PDaddy on Sat Mar 20, 2010 2:06 am, edited 3 times in total.

User avatar
drdolittle
Posts: 628
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2010 4:15 am

Re: Why top 14?

Postby drdolittle » Sat Mar 20, 2010 2:02 am

Well, if Cornell accidentally slips to T15+ you're totally screwed since then it won't be T14.

Torvon
Posts: 352
Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2009 6:09 pm

Re: Why top 14?

Postby Torvon » Sat Mar 20, 2010 2:06 am

soullesswonder wrote:
Torvon wrote:
miamiman wrote:Remind me again how tls converged upon t13?


Any kind of "t#" is rather meaningless and only used by elitist queers. The only numbers that matter are the ones that are directly applicable to your aspirations (ie clerkship, biglaw employment). The t14 thing developed because of the large gap in those numbers between the t14 and everyone else and the t13 thing is primarily used by those who really wanted HYS and didn't get it so they have to put down whatever school is right below them to feel more important.


I'm sure that if you bought a couple drinks for one of the many, many [strike]GT[/strike] 2Ls at any law school who struck out at OCI this year, they'd probably get on board with the whole [strike]T13[/strike] "law school sucks" idea.

User avatar
RVP11
Posts: 2774
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:32 pm

Re: Why top 14?

Postby RVP11 » Sat Mar 20, 2010 2:13 am

PDaddy wrote:If I got into UCLA and either Duke, Cornell or GULC, there's no question in my mind which one I would pick...UCLA! The rankings are misleading students into thinking there's a fault line between the bottom T14 schools and the other 6-12 schools that knock on the door. It's not just Vandy, UCLA, USC and Texas that get shafted; GWU, Minnesota, Illinois, N.D., WUSTL, Iowa, Fordham, and Emory could all lay claim to a theoretical T18 if they wanted to. BU and BC also have a gripe. Really, the "T30" would be the best "elite" ranking. It would be much more accurate.

There's little question that the schools ranked in the top 30 belong there. Wisconsin and UC-Hastings have been proud members of the club, and Ohio State has always been close, but a T30 club wrongfully dismisses the fewest schools.


Go talk to BU/GW/ND/WUSTL/etc. students about how they're doing in the current economy. It's a MASSIVE dropoff from the T14 down to that level of schools in terms of what actually matters - getting a job. A T30 cutoff is meaningless.

User avatar
rayiner
Posts: 6184
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:43 am

Re: Why top 14?

Postby rayiner » Sat Mar 20, 2010 2:27 am

booboo wrote:
rayiner wrote:http://lawfirmaddict.blogspot.com/2007/03/vault-selectivity-placement.html

The gap between the lowest T14 (GULC) and the highest non-T14 (BC) on that list is roughly a factor of 2. That is by far the largest relative gap between any adjacent schools on that list.


You trickster with your 2006 data.


That data is more representative of the relatively good economic period between 1995 and 2005 during which the T14 moniker really took hold than now. I think Vandy has closed the gap in the last couple of years, but that's not really pertinent to explaining how the T14 moniker arose.

RE: PDaddy. T30 is a useless dividing mark. Even prior to the recession, median at T30 was not safe for biglaw, while all of the T14 except maybe GULC was safe down to the bottom quarter of the class. And even those folks were at least getting callbacks.

User avatar
drdolittle
Posts: 628
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2010 4:15 am

Re: Why top 14?

Postby drdolittle » Sat Mar 20, 2010 3:20 am

So rankings are basically an indicator of how low biglaw will dip into class rank. This is good to know, but it certainly does not mean that going to a T30 or just a plain old non-T14 T1 school is disastrous. It just means that to go into biglaw out of lower ranked schools, one will need a higher class rank.

I suppose some might make the argument that going to a T14 also ensures degree portability. But other than Y/H/S, and maybe a select few other schools, it appears that the T14 are really the most dominant regional institutions.

User avatar
flyingpanda
Posts: 824
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 5:32 am

Re: Why top 14?

Postby flyingpanda » Sat Mar 20, 2010 5:29 am

PDaddy wrote:If I got into UCLA and either Duke, Cornell or GULC, there's no question in my mind which one I would pick...UCLA! The rankings are misleading students into thinking there's a fault line between the bottom T14 schools and the other 6-12 schools that knock on the door. It's not just Vandy, UCLA, USC and Texas that get shafted; GWU, Minnesota, Illinois, N.D., WUSTL, Iowa, Fordham, and Emory could all lay claim to a theoretical T18 if they wanted to. BU and BC also have a gripe. Really, the "T30" would be the best "elite" ranking. It would be much more accurate.

There's little question that the schools ranked in the top 30 belong there. Wisconsin and UC-Hastings have been proud members of the club, and Ohio State has always been close, but a T30 club wrongfully dismisses the fewest schools.


As much as I love UCLA, this is just incorrect thinking. There are a VERY very limited number of schools that can truly be called national. These are the t14. Vandy, UCLA, Texas (no USC you don't belong here), do have far reach, but it's not national. Even if students at these schools wanted to go further out, and there is self-selection going on here, they wouldn't be as able to. This is especially true as you get farther out. Let's say I wanted to practice law in California, I wouldn't pick GWU, Minnesota and I sure as hell wouldn't pick Iowa if I wanted this goal.

User avatar
soullesswonder
Posts: 553
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2009 11:36 pm

Re: Why top 14?

Postby soullesswonder » Sat Mar 20, 2010 10:28 am

PDaddy wrote:If I got into UCLA and either Duke, Cornell or GULC, there's no question in my mind which one I would pick...UCLA! The rankings are misleading students into thinking there's a fault line between the bottom T14 schools and the other 6-12 schools that knock on the door. It's not just Vandy, UCLA, USC and Texas that get shafted; GWU, Minnesota, Illinois, N.D., WUSTL, Iowa, Fordham, and Emory could all lay claim to a theoretical T18 if they wanted to. BU and BC also have a gripe. Really, the "T30" would be the best "elite" ranking. It would be much more accurate.

There's little question that the schools ranked in the top 30 belong there. Wisconsin and UC-Hastings have been proud members of the club, and Ohio State has always been close, but a T30 club wrongfully dismisses the fewest schools.


You should be shot, stabbed, and then shot again. Check shownprove's NLJ250 + Federal Clerkships thread. Duke is twenty points up on UCLA (61.5% versus 41.9%).

User avatar
RVP11
Posts: 2774
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:32 pm

Re: Why top 14?

Postby RVP11 » Sat Mar 20, 2010 10:35 am

drdolittle wrote:But other than Y/H/S, and maybe a select few other schools, it appears that the T14 are really the most dominant regional institutions.


Not really. If you look at which schools in the T14 have the most national placement, it's Harvard, Michigan, Virginia, and Duke popping up. The only schools in the T14 who place a substantial majority into one region are Columbia, NYU, and Cornell, and there's obviously a lot of self-selection at play with those schools. If you have the necessary geographic ties, I don't think any T14 will present an obstacle for you going to a different region or even crossing to the opposite coast.

User avatar
rayiner
Posts: 6184
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:43 am

Re: Why top 14?

Postby rayiner » Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:38 am

JSUVA2012 wrote:
drdolittle wrote:But other than Y/H/S, and maybe a select few other schools, it appears that the T14 are really the most dominant regional institutions.


Not really. If you look at which schools in the T14 have the most national placement, it's Harvard, Michigan, Virginia, and Duke popping up. The only schools in the T14 who place a substantial majority into one region are Columbia, NYU, and Cornell, and there's obviously a lot of self-selection at play with those schools. If you have the necessary geographic ties, I don't think any T14 will present an obstacle for you going to a different region or even crossing to the opposite coast.


For my own interest, I looked at callback GPAs for top Atlanta firms from NU. They were very favorable, though those folks probably had ties.

User avatar
scribelaw
Posts: 771
Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2009 3:27 pm

Re: Why top 14?

Postby scribelaw » Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:40 am

rayiner wrote:
JSUVA2012 wrote:
drdolittle wrote:But other than Y/H/S, and maybe a select few other schools, it appears that the T14 are really the most dominant regional institutions.


Not really. If you look at which schools in the T14 have the most national placement, it's Harvard, Michigan, Virginia, and Duke popping up. The only schools in the T14 who place a substantial majority into one region are Columbia, NYU, and Cornell, and there's obviously a lot of self-selection at play with those schools. If you have the necessary geographic ties, I don't think any T14 will present an obstacle for you going to a different region or even crossing to the opposite coast.


For my own interest, I looked at callback GPAs for top Atlanta firms from NU. They were very favorable, though those folks probably had ties.


How do you get such information?

User avatar
rayiner
Posts: 6184
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:43 am

Re: Why top 14?

Postby rayiner » Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:46 am

scribelaw wrote:
rayiner wrote:
JSUVA2012 wrote:
drdolittle wrote:But other than Y/H/S, and maybe a select few other schools, it appears that the T14 are really the most dominant regional institutions.


Not really. If you look at which schools in the T14 have the most national placement, it's Harvard, Michigan, Virginia, and Duke popping up. The only schools in the T14 who place a substantial majority into one region are Columbia, NYU, and Cornell, and there's obviously a lot of self-selection at play with those schools. If you have the necessary geographic ties, I don't think any T14 will present an obstacle for you going to a different region or even crossing to the opposite coast.


For my own interest, I looked at callback GPAs for top Atlanta firms from NU. They were very favorable, though those folks probably had ties.


How do you get such information?


It's given to matriculated students and guarded rather closely.




Return to “Choosing a Law School”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: carlos_danger, Whittie and 6 guests