UPENN or Temple$$$$$$$$$$$$$ Forum

[Marisa5252]

So I want to work in the Philadelphia area and Temple's given me $$$$$$ and UPENN has me on hold (before anyone says it - if I wait to hear from them and hear like the day before Temple's seat deposit is due I'll be wanting to make a FAST decision). Anyone have any insight into what I should do?

[holydonkey]

These are the only options? I'd take any of the T13 over Temple even for Philly.

[Marisa5252]

I've got other T14 options (NYU, UVA, GULC) but the whole "no debt thing" is what's tempting to me. Plus my long-time SO lives/works near here (he's a UPENN Law grad actually - so there's that competition to think about too ) so I'd really like to not move. Also, I've learned from doing some research around here that people in the area don't like hiring from NYU (or other non-penn T14's) as much because they're worried about not being able to keep you around.

[MURPH]

Marisa,
I am similarly situated. I got into Temple and waitlisted at Penn. I really want to live in Philly, even though I haven't lived there in 12 years. I got family and friends there. Unlike you (I assume) I have a GI Bill that can be used at any school. I cannot imagine that Penn is worth $ 120K more than Temple. So no money at Penn vs. free ride at Temple, I would choose Temple.
If you do well at Temple then you can consider transferring after 1L. Penn might be worth $80 K in debt. Since you are on scholarship, and since GPA and LSAT are fairly predictive of how you will do in law school, there is a reasonable chance that you could end up in the top 10% of you class. Since you are in Philly you can go to events where the Penn adcoms will be and stop by the office next year to let them know your plans and how your first semester grades have gone, etc. This is a good plan even if you don't get in this year. Use you scholarship at Temple then get a degree from Penn. It is like getting a 1/3 scholarship to Penn. (even if you don't transfer, you are going to try your best anyway, right? So having this goal in mind might just be some extra motivation.)
OTOH, Penn's employment statistics suggest that their graduates make an average of 160K per year. Temple's make something less, like 105 -115K. It would only take a few years longer to pay off the debt from Penn if you are diligent about paying it off. But you will probably be paying for a mortgage and other stuff and student loans have a way of lingering on and on.

[Marisa5252]

Marisa,
I am similarly situated. I got into Temple and waitlisted at Penn. I really want to live in Philly, even though I haven't lived there in 12 years. I got family and friends there. Unlike you (I assume) I have a GI Bill that can be used at any school. I cannot imagine that Penn is worth $ 120K more than Temple. So no money at Penn vs. free ride at Temple, I would choose Temple.
If you do well at Temple then you can consider transferring after 1L. Penn might be worth $80 K in debt. Since you are on scholarship, and since GPA and LSAT are fairly predictive of how you will do in law school, there is a reasonable chance that you could end up in the top 10% of you class. Since you are in Philly you can go to events where the Penn adcoms will be and stop by the office next year to let them know your plans and how your first semester grades have gone, etc. This is a good plan even if you don't get in this year. Use you scholarship at Temple then get a degree from Penn. It is like getting a 1/3 scholarship to Penn. (even if you don't transfer, you are going to try your best anyway, right? So having this goal in mind might just be some extra motivation.)
OTOH, Penn's employment statistics suggest that their graduates make an average of 160K per year. Temple's make something less, like 105 -115K. It would only take a few years longer to pay off the debt from Penn if you are diligent about paying it off. But you will probably be paying for a mortgage and other stuff and student loans have a way of lingering on and on.

I wonder though if they make that on average if they stay in Philadelphia - especially since a bunch of the local firms folded when ITE hit. I'm worried I would feel obligated to leave the area to pay off my debt in a reasonable amount of time. OTOH, graduating from Temple - even in the top of the class - would probably restrict me to staying in the area. It's kind of like I have to decide what I want to do with my career now. I was hoping to figure that out in school...

Some more information: I've got a science background and I'm interested in IP - so the wealth of pharma companies in the area is also inviting... It's just hard to turn down that T14 degree...................

[apper123]

If I were in this position as a 0L last year, I would have told you to take Temple.

Now, as a 1L, I'd say take Penn and don't look back.

Well, let me further ask first: do you want to work in BigLaw? What type of law do you want to do?

[3ThrowAway99]

My first impression was that this was a flame, but maybe not...

If you are sure you want to live and practice in PA then UPENN's national reputation and world-class programs may not have as strong a bearing in the decision process... but otherwise, unless Temple is planning to pay you a $15K stipend per year in addition to full-scholarship it's a decision that probably most of us on here wouldn't have too much hesitation about (hence the voting so far). You'll be taking on debt either way for cost of living expenses (unless you have unusual circumstances such as large savings)- it's just a matter of how much debt. Obviously the less debt the better, but if you do end up getting into Penn and decide to go to Temple I suspect you may regret it. Then again, you would be a much more competitive student at Temple so your chances at being at the very top of the class would be improved and that could pay off vs. PENN where you may just be middle-of-the-road. The better education I suspect would be worth it. Just IMO.

[MURPH]

I hadn't thought about that. Penn's graduates usually go to NY, don't they. That would be a + for Temple since you would likely be making less than average for a Penn graduate in Philly and about average for a Temple graduate. OTOH Penn's degree is more portable, and three years from now you might want to ditch your boyfriend and Philly and move across the country.

If you can live with your boyfriend and get him to cover your expenses then all the better for you. He is a Penn grad so he should be making enough money to pay for you. BTW, he probably is much more informed than a bunch of OL's on TLS.

[apper123]

Honestly I think the answer here is Penn and it's not close. Unless, as the poster above mentioned, Temple is offering you a substantial stipend.

[Oblomov]

.

[Marisa5252]

If you can live with your boyfriend and get him to cover your expenses then all the better for you. He is a Penn grad so he should be making enough money to pay for you. BTW, he probably is much more informed than a bunch of OL's on TLS.

Yes and No. He can cover most of my living expenses and Temple gave me full tuition (no stipend) and I have some savings so it will be at least close to a 0-debt situation. But he hasn't really been able to help me because he works in kind of a niche market (that isn't IP) so he's not super connected to the Phila legal market.

[270910]

Marisa,
I am similarly situated. I got into Temple and waitlisted at Penn. I really want to live in Philly, even though I haven't lived there in 12 years. I got family and friends there. Unlike you (I assume) I have a GI Bill that can be used at any school. I cannot imagine that Penn is worth $ 120K more than Temple. So no money at Penn vs. free ride at Temple, I would choose Temple.
If you do well at Temple then you can consider transferring after 1L. Penn might be worth $80 K in debt. Since you are on scholarship, and since GPA and LSAT are fairly predictive of how you will do in law school, there is a reasonable chance that you could end up in the top 10% of you class. Since you are in Philly you can go to events where the Penn adcoms will be and stop by the office next year to let them know your plans and how your first semester grades have gone, etc. This is a good plan even if you don't get in this year. Use you scholarship at Temple then get a degree from Penn. It is like getting a 1/3 scholarship to Penn. (even if you don't transfer, you are going to try your best anyway, right? So having this goal in mind might just be some extra motivation.)
OTOH, Penn's employment statistics suggest that their graduates make an average of 160K per year. Temple's make something less, like 105 -115K. It would only take a few years longer to pay off the debt from Penn if you are diligent about paying it off. But you will probably be paying for a mortgage and other stuff and student loans have a way of lingering on and on.

You registered in 2008, and can post with a straight face that the average Temple grad makes 105-115K?

OK...

Let's start with the basics. The time is 2003, OCI at firms is going as well as can be expected. The class of 2005 goes to interview, and the following results shake out:

http://www.law.com/pdf/nlj/20080414empl ... trends.pdf

See that big, beefy, respectable NLJ 250 bar for UPenn? Those firm jobs almost all pay north of 100K. The majority pay 'market', which is going to be in the 145-160K region. If you get one of those jobs - and it's very hard in this economy, much harder than it was for the class of 2005 - you will have great options afterward.

Now let your eyes wander down to temple. See it's tiny little red bar, suggesting less than 15% of the class lands jobs at the NLJ 250 biggest law firms? That means your odds of pulling down 6 figures after graduation from temple is realistically probably in the 10% range if not substantially lower.

For every 10 people attending Temple, the statistics suggest that a single one will land a big firm job.

The other 9 won't die impoverished in a hole, but they will never get their foot in the door, they will have to hustle / network for anything they can get, and in general aren't going to have nearly the same career trajectory as the upenn student.

The opportunity cost of turning down penn is so astronomical that you would be a moron to spend 3 years of your life at temple even if they gave you table / bottle service for every class. Law school isn't a joy ride, it's a means to obtaining a job - and the odds of that happening from Temple are dismal. Shitty. Crappy. Horrible.

Temple on a full ride is worth it if that's your only shot at the legal market. Go for it. Bet the farm. Take the risk.

BUT IF YOU CAN GO TO UPENN, YOU GET YOUR ASS TO UPENN. There is no room for discussion. None. Zero. Zip. The data, the anecdotes, the legal world all SHOUT for you to go to penn.

[manbearwig]

Law school isn't a joy ride, it's a means to obtaining a job - and the odds of that happening from Temple are dismal. Shitty. Crappy. Horrible..

Lol.

[dvd]

`

[lawschoollll]

I've got other T14 options (NYU, UVA, GULC) but the whole "no debt thing" is what's tempting to me. Plus my long-time SO lives/works near here (he's a UPENN Law grad actually - so there's that competition to think about too ) so I'd really like to not move. Also, I've learned from doing some research around here that people in the area don't like hiring from NYU (or other non-penn T14's) as much because they're worried about not being able to keep you around.

Many people think that Penn is over-rated, and given the fact that NYU is more highly regarded in almost all circumstances, you should cut Penn out of the equation. Both Penn and NYU both send most of their students to NYC BigLaw, so it's not all that different in that sense. However, you will have a more respected degree nationally coming from NYU.
If you do decide to go to Temple, realize that you will be pretty much unable to move to the West Coast, etc. in the future.

Is either of these statements really true? I haven't heard the former, and I have a hard time believing the latter, given that Penn is an Ivy and NYU is overshadowed by Columbia in its own city.

[dvd]

`

[MURPH]

Marisa,
I am similarly situated. I got into Temple and waitlisted at Penn. I really want to live in Philly, even though I haven't lived there in 12 years. I got family and friends there. Unlike you (I assume) I have a GI Bill that can be used at any school. I cannot imagine that Penn is worth $ 120K more than Temple. So no money at Penn vs. free ride at Temple, I would choose Temple.
If you do well at Temple then you can consider transferring after 1L. Penn might be worth $80 K in debt. Since you are on scholarship, and since GPA and LSAT are fairly predictive of how you will do in law school, there is a reasonable chance that you could end up in the top 10% of you class. Since you are in Philly you can go to events where the Penn adcoms will be and stop by the office next year to let them know your plans and how your first semester grades have gone, etc. This is a good plan even if you don't get in this year. Use you scholarship at Temple then get a degree from Penn. It is like getting a 1/3 scholarship to Penn. (even if you don't transfer, you are going to try your best anyway, right? So having this goal in mind might just be some extra motivation.)
OTOH, Penn's employment statistics suggest that their graduates make an average of 160K per year. Temple's make something less, like 105 -115K. It would only take a few years longer to pay off the debt from Penn if you are diligent about paying it off. But you will probably be paying for a mortgage and other stuff and student loans have a way of lingering on and on.

You registered in 2008, and can post with a straight face that the average Temple grad makes 105-115K?

OK...

Let's start with the basics. The time is 2003, OCI at firms is going as well as can be expected. The class of 2005 goes to interview, and the following results shake out:

http://www.law.com/pdf/nlj/20080414empl ... trends.pdf

See that big, beefy, respectable NLJ 250 bar for UPenn? Those firm jobs almost all pay north of 100K. The majority pay 'market', which is going to be in the 145-160K region. If you get one of those jobs - and it's very hard in this economy, much harder than it was for the class of 2005 - you will have great options afterward.

Now let your eyes wander down to temple. See it's tiny little red bar, suggesting less than 15% of the class lands jobs at the NLJ 250 biggest law firms? That means your odds of pulling down 6 figures after graduation from temple is realistically probably in the 10% range if not substantially lower.

For every 10 people attending Temple, the statistics suggest that a single one will land a big firm job.

The other 9 won't die impoverished in a hole, but they will never get their foot in the door, they will have to hustle / network for anything they can get, and in general aren't going to have nearly the same career trajectory as the upenn student.

The opportunity cost of turning down penn is so astronomical that you would be a moron to spend 3 years of your life at temple even if they gave you table / bottle service for every class. Law school isn't a joy ride, it's a means to obtaining a job - and the odds of that happening from Temple are dismal. Shitty. Crappy. Horrible.

Temple on a full ride is worth it if that's your only shot at the legal market. Go for it. Bet the farm. Take the risk.

BUT IF YOU CAN GO TO UPENN, YOU GET YOUR ASS TO UPENN. There is no room for discussion. None. Zero. Zip. The data, the anecdotes, the legal world all SHOUT for you to go to penn.

I got those numbers from the Temple website and TLS, The numbers from everyschool are pretty much fiction but it is all we have to go on. I would bet that it is a fair enough estimate for grads who go into the private sector, not including students with no job, goverment work, clerkships and PI. As disco correctly pointed out this is a smaller percent of the class at Temple.
Still, there is more to life then $$. You know this that is why you want to stay in Philly. A six figure debt severely limits your freedom for many years. Having a high salary helps but not as much as you might think. You are going to want to get a mortgage after graduation, if for no other reason then to have the tax write off. Paying off those student loans will weigh pretty heavily if you decide, for example, that you want to stay in Philly vs getting a higher salary in NY, or you really want to do PI, or you want to travel for a year or you want to start a family or you want to do anything besides work for 80 hrs per week. A lot of big law folks are not happy. I volunteer at a PI firm and they are happy, partially because they work 40 hrs per week, often less.
So if you definately want big law after graduation then disco is correct.
If you want freedom after graduation then stay out of debt.
Also, I didn't realize that NYU offered you money. Use it as leverage to get something from Penn and go there. That will make this whole discussion moot.