Yale vs. Stanford?!?!

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BioEBear2010
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Yale vs. Stanford?!?!

Postby BioEBear2010 » Thu Mar 18, 2010 11:20 pm

Hey TLS!

First, let me acknowledge how fortunate I am to be in this position. My stats are pretty unimpressive (at least for these two schools) and I haven't cured cancer/learned to play the didgeridoo/etc. -- yet for whatever reason, I was admitted. Also, I know that I can't go wrong by choosing either school, but I want to hear some words of wisdom from my fellow TLSers.

And before you all scream Yale (it's #1!!!) and tell me I'm an idiot for even considering Stanford, here are a few things about me:
- Current undergraduate at U.C. Berkeley majoring in bioengineering.
- Interested in intellectual property law, but am also fascinated by a number of other areas (antitrust, bankruptcy, constitutional law, primarily).
- Would like to clerk for a year or two after law school, preferably at the appellate or (yeah right) Supreme Court level.
- Have also been accepted to Stanford's bioengineering department for a joint J.D./M.S. in law in bioengineering (3 years for both degrees).
- A born-and-raised Californian -- I love the weather and culture here, but think it would be a great experience living on the East Coast.
- Loved my visit to Yale in February. The students, faculty, and administrators were all extremely friendly, and I got an overall great vibe from the place. That being said, all I ever hear about New Haven is that it's awful.
- Have yet to visit SLS, but I know what Stanford is all about (I have visited numerous times). Palo Alto bores me.
- Have family ties at Stanford, but none at Yale.

Also, a few specific questions for those of you in the know:
- Keeping in mind that I have ties to both LA and SF, how would career prospects from Yale and Stanford compare if I wanted to work in California? If I wanted to work in NY/DC?
- How useful would a M.S. in bioengineering be for someone who wants to practice biotech IP (I hear that PhD's are essentially required)?
- Are there opportunities at Yale that simply aren't available at Stanford?
- Yale is the king of clerkships, but how much of this is self-selection? If a Stanford student wanted to clerk for, say, the 9th Circuit, how easily could he/she get it?
- I have heard that Stanford produces better lawyers, while Yale produces better legal thinkers. Any merit to this?

Sorry for the extremely lengthy post, but I'm so confused right now. Argh!

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lostjake
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Re: Yale vs. Stanford?!?!

Postby lostjake » Thu Mar 18, 2010 11:29 pm

If you want to practice in CA you should go to Stanford. You'd be better off going to get a MSEE with your bio, it would probably require 6 more credit hours or so (circuit/analysis), but you'd be better in the market place for taking it. Plus you could probably get it done in a summer. Also Palo Alto isn't bad compared to NY. Believe it or not cost of living is low compared to NY. Also, if you really want IP you should go to Stanford.

That being said, it is Yale. You could also go to several schools in the CA area (Boalt) and still be in the same boat as going to Stanford. Maybe better. You can only tell your kids you went to Yale if you went there. Grading is laughable at Yale, go and you'll graduate.

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badfish
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Re: Yale vs. Stanford?!?!

Postby badfish » Thu Mar 18, 2010 11:31 pm

While Stanford might match up better to your personal interests, I wouldn't pass up Yale for anything. From someone who grew up in New Haven I'll have you know that it grows on you.

Kretzy
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Re: Yale vs. Stanford?!?!

Postby Kretzy » Thu Mar 18, 2010 11:32 pm

Stanford :D

Just to be biased and unhelpful.

Though, I will say, New Haven is much more fun than the normal diatribes on TLS would have you believe. Make sure you eat at Modern Pizza, it's the best in town :)
Last edited by Kretzy on Thu Mar 18, 2010 11:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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lostjake
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Re: Yale vs. Stanford?!?!

Postby lostjake » Thu Mar 18, 2010 11:32 pm

Also if you can't get your MSEE PM me and I'll give you some info on an online ABET school (top 30 nationally in EE in grad studies) where you can get your MSEE with the prior two prereqs. Credit hour is about $500/per, but if you're doing dual study you can just take courses for two semesters and get it done. Not really familiar with the Stanford dual degree.

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BioEBear2010
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Re: Yale vs. Stanford?!?!

Postby BioEBear2010 » Fri Mar 19, 2010 12:24 am

lostjake wrote:Also if you can't get your MSEE PM me and I'll give you some info on an online ABET school (top 30 nationally in EE in grad studies) where you can get your MSEE with the prior two prereqs. Credit hour is about $500/per, but if you're doing dual study you can just take courses for two semesters and get it done. Not really familiar with the Stanford dual degree.

Is a MSEE that much better than a MSBE? I've only take one true circuits class, and don't have a real interest in electronics.

lakerfanimal
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Re: Yale vs. Stanford?!?!

Postby lakerfanimal » Fri Mar 19, 2010 12:30 am

Dude the "your stats are pretty unimpressive" is ridic bro, you have an incredible GPA for a bioengineer :shock:

Like you said, there's no wrong answer with this, but as a fellow Californian I'd say if you're interested in clerking Yale opens doors that Stanford doesn't it seems like. But good luck with the decision dude!

SimplyC26
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Re: Yale vs. Stanford?!?!

Postby SimplyC26 » Fri Mar 19, 2010 12:32 am

Congratulations. There might be less than 200 applicants in the entire country who have successfully gotten into both schools. Because you're pursuing a dual degree and have an interest in IP, Stanford might be a better fit.

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lostjake
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Re: Yale vs. Stanford?!?!

Postby lostjake » Fri Mar 19, 2010 12:34 am

http://www.intelproplaw.com/

Good place to look if you haven't. You don't need an interest in MSEE, at all. I'm sure you know but there are two areas of IP. MSEE would place you in the top cream of the crop. Your Bio would place you below MEs coming from other T14 schools.

heyguys
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Re: Yale vs. Stanford?!?!

Postby heyguys » Fri Mar 19, 2010 7:10 am

As a 0L, I probably would have gone SLS in your position. As a 1L, I think it really depends on how much the MS will help you/how much you want the MS. If you want it, then go ahead and go to SLS. If you want clerking and a great law school environment, as a current 1L I would suggest YLS. It's really a personal decision though--you have unique circumstances.

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crackberry
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Re: Yale vs. Stanford?!?!

Postby crackberry » Fri Mar 19, 2010 11:18 am

Wow, this thread reeks of blatant anti-me trolling.

lawyering
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Re: Yale vs. Stanford?!?!

Postby lawyering » Fri Mar 19, 2010 11:22 am

crack, not everything is about you. ;-)

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crackberry
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Re: Yale vs. Stanford?!?!

Postby crackberry » Fri Mar 19, 2010 11:27 am

To actually contribute something:

BioE - I know you have substantial personal reasons for wanting to go to Stanford, but if those reasons aren't making this decision easy for you, it means you subconsciously want Yale. I hate to psychoanalyze, but I really believe that. Also, you will have no problem getting a job on the West Coast coming from Yale given your West Coast connections; that should not factor into your decision at all. If you'd spent your whole life on the East Coast, it would be a different story.

Given how much I love Stanford, you should know how hard it is for me to say this: go to Yale and enjoy it.
Last edited by crackberry on Fri Mar 19, 2010 11:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

lawyering
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Re: Yale vs. Stanford?!?!

Postby lawyering » Fri Mar 19, 2010 11:30 am

I don't think this decision is as cut and dry as the rest of the posters here. SLS has better IP than Yale--so does Boalt. If you truly want to remain in CA, and all your family is there, I think if I were in your boat I'd pick SLS. I suppose the clerkship question might make it a slightly harder decision...but I'd still go for the joint degree at Stanford.

That said, I'd clearly rather you join me at Yale! =) But I see why this is such a hard decision for you to make.

Cassandrus
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Re: Yale vs. Stanford?!?!

Postby Cassandrus » Fri Mar 19, 2010 11:39 am

I'm gonna say stanford--if your focus is IP/tech related, I think Stanford's concrete advantages in those areas outweigh the gestalt advantages of Yale's #1-ness.

Lysis
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Re: Yale vs. Stanford?!?!

Postby Lysis » Fri Mar 19, 2010 11:46 am

Cassandrus wrote:I'm gonna say stanford--if your focus is IP/tech related, I think Stanford's concrete advantages in those areas outweigh the gestalt advantages of Yale's #1-ness.


+1. From talking to people at H and S at least, I've gotten the overwhelming sense that IP is the one area in which Stanford has a decisive advantage in the T3. Combined with your personal factors, I would think it's the clear winner (even if Palo Alto is a little boring...).

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theadw
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Re: Yale vs. Stanford?!?!

Postby theadw » Fri Mar 19, 2010 11:49 am

Cassandrus wrote:I'm gonna say stanford--if your focus is IP/tech related, I think Stanford's concrete advantages in those areas outweigh the gestalt advantages of Yale's #1-ness.


I [strike]second[/strike] third this. The advantages of Yale, in your particular case, seem to be extremely chimerical when placed against two degrees from Stanford's top departments. I suspect that your body of work, not the name on your degree, will be the limiting factor in your career a few years out of either school.

legends159
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Re: Yale vs. Stanford?!?!

Postby legends159 » Fri Mar 19, 2010 11:54 am

visit both schools and decide for yourself based on how you feel.

Here's my SLS trolling:

I'll let you know there are a few 1Ls at SLS who I know chose SLS over H/Y and they all just thought they'd get a better practical legal education at SLS. I don't know about Harvard, but I'm pretty sure you'll get a more practical education at SLS over YLS. They also happen to be from CA though they don't plan to practice in CA.

A bunch of 2/3Ls I talked to have the running joke that YLS people don't know anything practical going into their summer jobs. They're wicked smart (but almost everyone at HYS is) but they can't do legal research because they never had to learn it. This might have changed now but I'm not sure. Take a look at the 1L curriculum. At SLS you have to take LRW and Federal litigation and you'll learn how to do legal research, draft memos, briefs, complaints, class certification etc. Basically you'll take your civ pro education and turn it into real work.

I had finals this week and as I sat outside studying under the beautiful weather with my amazing classmates and friends on a beautiful campus with fantastic facilities to go do anything athletic that I please, I realized I wouldn't change a thing. I've had great interaction with the faculty and met a ton of amazing people inside and outside the law school. I had thought about transferring to Yale after I got my grades back but that was for about half a second and jokingly b/c I know I wouldn't be happier anywhere else.

I also know a transfer from Y to S and she just wasn't happy there. Once you get into a T6 school it should be about where you think you'll be happy more than what some 0L perception of prestige is. If the thought of going to Yale makes you happy all the time then go for it. But if you think you'll be happier at SLS don't discount it just b/c USNWR put it behind Yale.

done trolling :D

09042014
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Re: Yale vs. Stanford?!?!

Postby 09042014 » Fri Mar 19, 2010 11:55 am

BioEBear2010 wrote:
lostjake wrote:Also if you can't get your MSEE PM me and I'll give you some info on an online ABET school (top 30 nationally in EE in grad studies) where you can get your MSEE with the prior two prereqs. Credit hour is about $500/per, but if you're doing dual study you can just take courses for two semesters and get it done. Not really familiar with the Stanford dual degree.

Is a MSEE that much better than a MSBE? I've only take one true circuits class, and don't have a real interest in electronics.


If you've only taken one EE course, any real MSEE would tear you a new hole.

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lostjake
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Re: Yale vs. Stanford?!?!

Postby lostjake » Fri Mar 19, 2010 12:52 pm

Its two courses, set up for MEs to enter a MSEE. You could do it with a bio, but you would probably struggle, true. I'd rather try it than getting a MS in bio though, pretty worthless. Most MEs have phyics II and a controls back ground also.

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Dignan
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Re: Yale vs. Stanford?!?!

Postby Dignan » Fri Mar 19, 2010 12:59 pm

BioEBear,

You realize that us 0Ls are just as clueless as you, right? Having said that, I would attend Stanford in your situation. If you did not have an engineering background, and if you were not interested in IP, then I would say Yale. But your background and interests are just ideal for Stanford, IMO.

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Dignan
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Re: Yale vs. Stanford?!?!

Postby Dignan » Fri Mar 19, 2010 1:18 pm

legends159 wrote:I also know a transfer from Y to S and she just wasn't happy there.

Talk about a data point that is susceptible to claims of self-selection... :)

Seriously, in support of what legends159 wrote about Y vs. S., Crackberry, ndnlawdc (SLS 1L), and I were talking about SLS vs. YLS last December. Ndnlawdc observed that Stanford students seem to know the law much better than Yale students.

Here's a link to the relevant page in the thread, with Ndnlawdc's post about seven posts down:

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=88595&start=575

eaters333
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Re: Yale vs. Stanford?!?!

Postby eaters333 » Fri Mar 19, 2010 1:24 pm

How could you think of betraying the Berkeley heritage....go to stanford and youre not a true bear

heyguys
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Re: Yale vs. Stanford?!?!

Postby heyguys » Fri Mar 19, 2010 1:36 pm

legends159 wrote:visit both schools and decide for yourself based on how you feel.

Here's my SLS trolling:

I'll let you know there are a few 1Ls at SLS who I know chose SLS over H/Y and they all just thought they'd get a better practical legal education at SLS. I don't know about Harvard, but I'm pretty sure you'll get a more practical education at SLS over YLS. They also happen to be from CA though they don't plan to practice in CA.

A bunch of 2/3Ls I talked to have the running joke that YLS people don't know anything practical going into their summer jobs. They're wicked smart (but almost everyone at HYS is) but they can't do legal research because they never had to learn it. This might have changed now but I'm not sure. Take a look at the 1L curriculum. At SLS you have to take LRW and Federal litigation and you'll learn how to do legal research, draft memos, briefs, complaints, class certification etc. Basically you'll take your civ pro education and turn it into real work.

I had finals this week and as I sat outside studying under the beautiful weather with my amazing classmates and friends on a beautiful campus with fantastic facilities to go do anything athletic that I please, I realized I wouldn't change a thing. I've had great interaction with the faculty and met a ton of amazing people inside and outside the law school. I had thought about transferring to Yale after I got my grades back but that was for about half a second and jokingly b/c I know I wouldn't be happier anywhere else.

I also know a transfer from Y to S and she just wasn't happy there. Once you get into a T6 school it should be about where you think you'll be happy more than what some 0L perception of prestige is. If the thought of going to Yale makes you happy all the time then go for it. But if you think you'll be happier at SLS don't discount it just b/c USNWR put it behind Yale.

done trolling :D


I think this has a ton of valid points to it. There are a lot of reasons to go to SLS, particularly for someone of your background. I do, however, think that there are a few advantages to Yale, namely the prospects at academia, the faculty accessibility and strength (which I think is far stronger at YH than S, although S presents its own unique advantages), and the lack of grades. Not to harp on the latter, but the lack of grades is something that I didn't fully appreciate as a 0L--it adds SO much to the general academic experience both in terms of friendliness between classmates and the way we pursue our legal educations. Are we as well versed in black letter law or as capable at legal research as our peers at other law schools after 1L year? Probably not. However, the freedom of the Yale experience is that you can pursue the avenues of law that truly engage you with impunity. Frankly, my understanding is that whatever job you end up with will be training you for that job anyway. You are clever, and you will learn what you need to know. If there's a two week lag, then I don't think that will deter a potential employer in what they know to be a stellar investment. Moreover, while SLS grads aren't plentiful either, the limiting factors involving hiring Yale graduates is unbelievable because of how few people graduating here actually want to go into practice (v. other things like policy or what have you).

I guess that's the end of my YLS counter-troll. I don't think you can go wrong either way.

notanumber
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Re: Yale vs. Stanford?!?!

Postby notanumber » Fri Mar 19, 2010 1:37 pm

Doing a joint M.S./J.D. in 3 years will cause you to be firmly "tracked" into IP from the beginning. If you do this, you'll probably not have much time to explore your other interests in law school. This isn't a bad thing if corporate IP work is what you're sure you want to do.

So yeah, I'd say that if you're going to law school solely as a way to get a professional credential then you should take Stanford. If you want to use law school to investigate other sectors of the law and build intellectual breadth (and still get a solid, though perhaps not as stellar IP education) then you might want to entertain the idea of going to Yale.

Job prospects will be roughly similar (read: fantastic) coming out of either place.

Honestly, differences between the two schools in terms of outcomes isn't substantive enough to overcome quality of life factors. I hate Palo Alto. That's why I only applied to Yale. If Stanford were in San Francisco it might have been a different story.




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