Brooklyn-31k a year

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goosey
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Brooklyn-31k a year

Postby goosey » Thu Mar 18, 2010 6:07 pm

I was pretty dead-set on what I wanted to do until this offer came along. I am a weak splitter and my gpa is pretty bad. There is a certain school I LOVE but it was a super-reach..and even being considered there was a miracle. My chances of being both admitted AND given aid there are slim to none. Also, there is a huge difference between Brooklyn and this school in terms of ranking.

That said, I am not even sure I want to go into biglaw. My main reason for wanting to go that route was so that I could pay off my loans asap. I am not averse to it, and if I had the opportunity, then its something I would probably be open to, but I am not exactly striving to get to biglaw.

The idea of being (almost) debt-free after graduation is quite tempting (now I fully understand why schools throw money at people)--I am still going to wait it out and see what happens with the other schools I like, but Brooklyn is now a heavy consideration.


Would you take it?

chocho
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Re: Brooklyn-31k a year

Postby chocho » Thu Mar 18, 2010 6:12 pm

we need to know the other options to really answer your question

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goosey
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Re: Brooklyn-31k a year

Postby goosey » Thu Mar 18, 2010 9:00 pm

Anyone else??

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SOCRATiC
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Re: Brooklyn-31k a year

Postby SOCRATiC » Thu Mar 18, 2010 9:10 pm

chocho wrote:we need to know the other options to really answer your question


This. You not telling us about the other school is similar (not exactly the same, but) to asking people where you should apply without having taken the LSAT.

HYS/CCN/MVP/T13? or T30?
Last edited by SOCRATiC on Thu Mar 18, 2010 9:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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OperaSoprano
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Re: Brooklyn-31k a year

Postby OperaSoprano » Thu Mar 18, 2010 9:11 pm

goosey wrote:Anyone else??


Goosey, darling, does the BLS scholarship come with strings attached? They are well known for pulling scholarships, and the GPA stipulation means business. I am honestly not a fan of that school's administration, for a variety of reasons. Did you also apply to Cardozo?

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goosey
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Re: Brooklyn-31k a year

Postby goosey » Thu Mar 18, 2010 9:38 pm

Condition is I have to be in the top 40% to keep the full amount, top 50% gives 80% of the initial scholarship

I applied to cardozo too but for may, and I think I remember you and others mentioning they don't give money to may applicants

dreman510
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Re: Brooklyn-31k a year

Postby dreman510 » Thu Mar 18, 2010 9:41 pm

No one can give you an answer until you give any indication about your other options...

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goosey
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Re: Brooklyn-31k a year

Postby goosey » Thu Mar 18, 2010 10:10 pm

dreman510 wrote:No one can give you an answer until you give any indication about your other options...

I didn't indicate the other school because it was expressed to me that I would be waiting for a while (read: possibly after the deposit deadline at brooklyn)

So I felt its unneccessary to mention the other school since I am waiting to even be accepted. For the record though, its a top 30.

This question is more about if brooklyn is worth it overall rather than a x vs y thread

blsingindisguise
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Re: Brooklyn-31k a year

Postby blsingindisguise » Thu Mar 18, 2010 10:16 pm

It's not the worst thing you can do, but keep in mind you're still looking at probably 80-90k in debt when you consider living expenses and tuition increases (your scholarship won't rise with tuition even if you keep it). And in this economy the question isn't "Do I really want big law" it's "Am I willing to FIGHT for a job with the DA, the New York Law Dept, a small firm that pays 60k to start". Because biglaw is really an outside chance.

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tommytahoe
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Re: Brooklyn-31k a year

Postby tommytahoe » Thu Mar 18, 2010 10:22 pm

goosey wrote:Condition is I have to be in the top 40% to keep the full amount, top 50% gives 80% of the initial scholarship

I applied to cardozo too but for may, and I think I remember you and others mentioning they don't give money to may applicants


Well, working without the full info., let's try one common dilemma:
BLS and/or Cardozo vs. Fordham (an age-old dilemma), the former two schools with some amount of money. I have anticipated having this exact dilemma, which explains the voluminous crap you're about to read. Oh, and OS, you're forbidden to contribute because you simply love your school too much to make a reasoned evaluation. :wink:

The balancing act, of course, is about gain in significantly decreased debt vs. gain in significantly greater ability to find work in NYC and elsewhere (incl. high profile NFP jobs, not just BigLaw). The thing is, each of these gains can be lessened in some way. OS mentioned the contingency of the $$, something worth really considering. These schools may be lower down, but from what I have heard, it's still 1L, and a good chunk of your competition is right there next to you chasing that same % cutoff. You would need to ask yourself whether you think you could make that happen. I am a very good student, but I am also cautious about assumptions.
On the other side, Fordham isn't necessarily a shoe-in for automatic great job security. I'm not disputing numbers, but the weakened legal job world in NYC can be expected to hit Fordham grads much faster than it does the NYU/Columbia grads. All I'm saying is that when you look at both sides, really interrogate just how good those pluses are.

The negatives COULD be big in re: job security coming out of BLS, if for no other reason than the economy reason mentioned above (again, to the extent that it will still be weak... i don't have figures), and the continued competition with bigger fish Columbia, NYU, and Fordham et al. And the negatives of Fordham's pricetag may be too much to handle if you don't gain the ironclad security of employment that, say, a Columbia would most likely provide.
But there are "outs" to each of these, possibly. Maybe you could look into ways to work your ass off at BLS, keep the scholly, distinguish yourself in school, and find a really good job after more effort, maybe smaller firm/public sector/government. ?? Plus, if you go to Fordham, you could do the LRAP option, or jump on board with either of the Obama Administration's two income-based repayment plans. It's at least possible to manage that debt long term.

I think you would take the BLS option if you knew how much $$ was enough to tilt the scales. I don't know what that cost is. Is it $90,000? Is it $120,000? It's hard to know, but you should at least check the pluses and minuses of each side and see if they are what they seem first. You may need solid facts that the good folks at TLS may not be able to provide, like doing targeted emailing of hiring attorneys at NYC firms and govt offices to see how BLS grads succeed in landing jobs there. That may tell you something empirical.

If you can find a way to minimize the negatives on either side you may find your answer.

Hypo#2: If the other school is, say, BU or William and Mary (checked your profile), the same holds except that now you're dealing with schools outside of NYC. If you def. want to live in NYC, I can't say BU really makes that much more of a compelling "other" option. W&M would be less of a draw for sure, if you need to stay in NYC, about the same if you don't.

If the school is Cornell, hell, take it at full-price immediately, even with the iceberg weather! Keep in mind that it is not (almost) debt-free at BLS like you said. I would expect a law school budget to end up at $200,000 in NYC after 3 years (incl. living v. frugally). So, net cost would still be over 100 grand at BLS —far from a debt-free experience. Just saying.

Sorry folks, I just had a large latte, and this is therapy for me.

ligirl
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Re: Brooklyn-31k a year

Postby ligirl » Thu Mar 18, 2010 10:26 pm

I have the same offer from Brooklyn. I'm trying to decide between this and a full ride somewhere else. I really love Brooklyn but don't know if it's worth the extra debt.. what to do, what to do..

But if I were you, I'd take Brooklyn w/ the $31K over Cardozo for sticker, but that's just me.

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goosey
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Re: Brooklyn-31k a year

Postby goosey » Thu Mar 18, 2010 10:30 pm

tommytahoe wrote:
goosey wrote:Condition is I have to be in the top 40% to keep the full amount, top 50% gives 80% of the initial scholarship

I applied to cardozo too but for may, and I think I remember you and others mentioning they don't give money to may applicants


Well, working without the full info., let's try one common dilemma:
BLS and/or Cardozo vs. Fordham (an age-old dilemma), the former two schools with some amount of money. I have anticipated having this exact dilemma, which explains the voluminous crap you're about to read. Oh, and OS, you're forbidden to contribute because you simply love your school too much to make a reasoned evaluation. :wink:

The balancing act, of course, is about gain in significantly decreased debt vs. gain in significantly greater ability to find work in NYC and elsewhere (incl. high profile NFP jobs, not just BigLaw). The thing is, each of these gains can be lessened in some way. OS mentioned the contingency of the $$, something worth really considering. These schools may be lower down, but from what I have heard, it's still 1L, and a good chunk of your competition is right there next to you chasing that same % cutoff. You would need to ask yourself whether you think you could make that happen. I am a very good student, but I am also cautious about assumptions.
On the other side, Fordham isn't necessarily a shoe-in for automatic great job security. I'm not disputing numbers, but the weakened legal job world in NYC can be expected to hit Fordham grads much faster than it does the NYU/Columbia grads. All I'm saying is that when you look at both sides, really interrogate just how good those pluses are.

The negatives COULD be big in re: job security coming out of BLS, if for no other reason than the economy reason mentioned above (again, to the extent that it will still be weak... i don't have figures), and the continued competition with bigger fish Columbia, NYU, and Fordham et al. And the negatives of Fordham's pricetag may be too much to handle if you don't gain the ironclad security of employment that, say, a Columbia would most likely provide.
But there are "outs" to each of these, possibly. Maybe you could look into ways to work your ass off at BLS, keep the scholly, distinguish yourself in school, and find a really good job after more effort, maybe smaller firm/public sector/government. ?? Plus, if you go to Fordham, you could do the LRAP option, or jump on board with either of the Obama Administration's two income-based repayment plans. It's at least possible to manage that debt long term.

I think you would take the BLS option if you knew how much $$ was enough to tilt the scales. I don't know what that cost is. Is it $90,000? Is it $120,000? It's hard to know, but you should at least check the pluses and minuses of each side and see if they are what they seem first. You may need solid facts that the good folks at TLS may not be able to provide, like doing targeted emailing of hiring attorneys at NYC firms and govt offices to see how BLS grads succeed in landing jobs there. That may tell you something empirical.

If you can find a way to minimize the negatives on either side you may find your answer.

Hypo#2: If the other school is, say, BU or William and Mary (checked your profile), the same holds except that now you're dealing with schools outside of NYC. If you def. want to live in NYC, I can't say BU really makes that much more of a compelling "other" option. W&M would be less of a draw for sure, if you need to stay in NYC, about the same if you don't.

If the school is Cornell, hell, take it at full-price immediately, even with the iceberg weather! Keep in mind that it is not (almost) debt-free at BLS like you said. I would expect a law school budget to end up at $200,000 in NYC after 3 years (incl. living v. frugally). So, net cost would still be over 100 grand at BLS —far from a debt-free experience. Just saying.

Sorry folks, I just had a large latte, and this is therapy for me.



Thank you so much for that. very helpful.

The cost ofliving is not something that I am worried about because I will be living in queens--my only "expense" will be subway tickets. I am getting married in december so cost of living is not something that will be a part of my debt. Be it Cardozo, Brooklyn, or Fordham, cost of living is not going to contribute to my debt really. I guess my main concern is just if I will be jobless after brooklyn

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lostjake
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Re: Brooklyn-31k a year

Postby lostjake » Thu Mar 18, 2010 10:45 pm

That said, I am not even sure I want to go into biglaw. My main reason for wanting to go that route was so that I could pay off my loans asap. I am not averse to it, and if I had the opportunity, then its something I would probably be open to, but I am not exactly striving to get to biglaw.


It would also help you to state exactly what you want to do, and where you want to do it. If you just want to be a public defender, which really isn't that bad of a gig to have, I'd say go to where ever you can get some $$$. Top 40% really isn't that bad at all, as long as you have the mind set of going in and doing better than your peers. Plenty of states are lacking public defenders, but its a really crappy job. Plan on hating everyone you rep. Not that bad of a place to start if you plan on hanging your shingle somewhere and doing general defense. You'll also not like the people, but that job isn't that bad. Also thats the place to be if you want to be a judge, or if you want to run for office at some point and time. Also not sure what your cost base is. If you could find a job making $50K a year, your COA just went up $50K. If you can't find a job your COA is really just that. If you could find a job making $50K, know that you'll have to have a better job to make up for it, if you really care. $50K per year = $150K after law school you're in debt.

Also, sorry about the comments in the Feb Lsat list. :(

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tommytahoe
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Re: Brooklyn-31k a year

Postby tommytahoe » Thu Mar 18, 2010 10:47 pm

goosey wrote:
tommytahoe wrote:
goosey wrote:Condition is I have to be in the top 40% to keep the full amount, top 50% gives 80% of the initial scholarship

I applied to cardozo too but for may, and I think I remember you and others mentioning they don't give money to may applicants


Well, working without the full info., let's try one common dilemma:
BLS and/or Cardozo vs. Fordham (an age-old dilemma), the former two schools with some amount of money. I have anticipated having this exact dilemma, which explains the voluminous crap you're about to read. Oh, and OS, you're forbidden to contribute because you simply love your school too much to make a reasoned evaluation. :wink:

The balancing act, of course, is about gain in significantly decreased debt vs. gain in significantly greater ability to find work in NYC and elsewhere (incl. high profile NFP jobs, not just BigLaw). The thing is, each of these gains can be lessened in some way. OS mentioned the contingency of the $$, something worth really considering. These schools may be lower down, but from what I have heard, it's still 1L, and a good chunk of your competition is right there next to you chasing that same % cutoff. You would need to ask yourself whether you think you could make that happen. I am a very good student, but I am also cautious about assumptions.
On the other side, Fordham isn't necessarily a shoe-in for automatic great job security. I'm not disputing numbers, but the weakened legal job world in NYC can be expected to hit Fordham grads much faster than it does the NYU/Columbia grads. All I'm saying is that when you look at both sides, really interrogate just how good those pluses are.

The negatives COULD be big in re: job security coming out of BLS, if for no other reason than the economy reason mentioned above (again, to the extent that it will still be weak... i don't have figures), and the continued competition with bigger fish Columbia, NYU, and Fordham et al. And the negatives of Fordham's pricetag may be too much to handle if you don't gain the ironclad security of employment that, say, a Columbia would most likely provide.
But there are "outs" to each of these, possibly. Maybe you could look into ways to work your ass off at BLS, keep the scholly, distinguish yourself in school, and find a really good job after more effort, maybe smaller firm/public sector/government. ?? Plus, if you go to Fordham, you could do the LRAP option, or jump on board with either of the Obama Administration's two income-based repayment plans. It's at least possible to manage that debt long term.

I think you would take the BLS option if you knew how much $$ was enough to tilt the scales. I don't know what that cost is. Is it $90,000? Is it $120,000? It's hard to know, but you should at least check the pluses and minuses of each side and see if they are what they seem first. You may need solid facts that the good folks at TLS may not be able to provide, like doing targeted emailing of hiring attorneys at NYC firms and govt offices to see how BLS grads succeed in landing jobs there. That may tell you something empirical.

If you can find a way to minimize the negatives on either side you may find your answer.

Hypo#2: If the other school is, say, BU or William and Mary (checked your profile), the same holds except that now you're dealing with schools outside of NYC. If you def. want to live in NYC, I can't say BU really makes that much more of a compelling "other" option. W&M would be less of a draw for sure, if you need to stay in NYC, about the same if you don't.

If the school is Cornell, hell, take it at full-price immediately, even with the iceberg weather! Keep in mind that it is not (almost) debt-free at BLS like you said. I would expect a law school budget to end up at $200,000 in NYC after 3 years (incl. living v. frugally). So, net cost would still be over 100 grand at BLS —far from a debt-free experience. Just saying.

Sorry folks, I just had a large latte, and this is therapy for me.



Thank you so much for that. very helpful.

The cost ofliving is not something that I am worried about because I will be living in queens--my only "expense" will be subway tickets. I am getting married in december so cost of living is not something that will be a part of my debt. Be it Cardozo, Brooklyn, or Fordham, cost of living is not going to contribute to my debt really. I guess my main concern is just if I will be jobless after brooklyn


Got it. That does make a difference. And makes the BLS option more appealing, really. Try to ask around those in town who are lawyers, or email recent BLS grads at law firms/DA offices to flat-out ask them what their experience job hunting was like, you know in candid terms, not as gushing and proud alums. Apparently, most of the time they are really willing to help out. And also keep in mind they most likely got hired before the economy went sour.
And look at those Income-based repayment plans (IBR), plus also Fordham's (?)LRAP. Opera will knwo soemthing about that —she wants to do public interest law, I gather. I haven't fully checked out the IBRs, cause they look complicated :roll: , but they're both profiled here: http://www.equaljusticeworks.org/resour ... orgiveness.
It's the College Cost Reduction and Access Act (CCRAA). It has a public service plan —like many school LRAPs, kind of— and also one where you pay money based on your income, regardless of the job I think, and after 20 years your debt is absolved. It's a possibility.
Dude, I have the same problem looming. As you can tell, the dilemma has bounced around my head so much, they're like an old married couple! I will be looking hard at whatever amount of $$ Cardozo and BLS offer me, b/c I'm 37, and thus less time to pay things off. The pressure is greater. Good luck, and let me know if you find the magic answer. :)

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goosey
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Re: Brooklyn-31k a year

Postby goosey » Thu Mar 18, 2010 11:27 pm

lostjake wrote:
That said, I am not even sure I want to go into biglaw. My main reason for wanting to go that route was so that I could pay off my loans asap. I am not averse to it, and if I had the opportunity, then its something I would probably be open to, but I am not exactly striving to get to biglaw.


It would also help you to state exactly what you want to do, and where you want to do it. If you just want to be a public defender, which really isn't that bad of a gig to have, I'd say go to where ever you can get some $$$. Top 40% really isn't that bad at all, as long as you have the mind set of going in and doing better than your peers. Plenty of states are lacking public defenders, but its a really crappy job. Plan on hating everyone you rep. Not that bad of a place to start if you plan on hanging your shingle somewhere and doing general defense. You'll also not like the people, but that job isn't that bad. Also thats the place to be if you want to be a judge, or if you want to run for office at some point and time. Also not sure what your cost base is. If you could find a job making $50K a year, your COA just went up $50K. If you can't find a job your COA is really just that. If you could find a job making $50K, know that you'll have to have a better job to make up for it, if you really care. $50K per year = $150K after law school you're in debt.

Also, sorry about the comments in the Feb Lsat list. :(

Which comments?

Also, I'm not sure what I want to do :-/ I have a goal in mind, but its something I feel I need to get to law school to further iron out. Academia is what I want, but its simply not going to happen out of any of the schools within my reach, so I need a plan B. Unfortunately (and fortunately in some ways) I have a fiance that will soon be a husband..and also starting a family right around the corner--which is all what I want. But I want a career too. I'd love to be a successful attorney at some big law firm. But I feel like it doesn't fit my life. I really think I need time in law school to figure out what exactly ill be doing. This is precisely why I am unsure about brooklyn: it may close doors for things I later realize are what I reallllly want to do.

The advice about contacting alums is great. I'm going to do that.

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lostjake
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Re: Brooklyn-31k a year

Postby lostjake » Thu Mar 18, 2010 11:38 pm

Same boat although I'm the husband. You should consider what you want to do with your children. I know day care is 50/50 on some people. I'm having a really hard time telling my wife to work with having the young'ins. That being said, Cardozo will place you in Academia. I'm in the mid west, but if I didn't get into H/Y I'd be going to Cardozo. Seriously they're on the rise and have placed many in Academia (including my top choice of Michigan)

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tommytahoe
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Re: Brooklyn-31k a year

Postby tommytahoe » Thu Mar 18, 2010 11:50 pm

lostjake wrote:Same boat although I'm the husband. You should consider what you want to do with your children. I know day care is 50/50 on some people. I'm having a really hard time telling my wife to work with having the young'ins. That being said, Cardozo will place you in Academia. I'm in the mid west, but if I didn't get into H/Y I'd be going to Cardozo. Seriously they're on the rise and have placed many in Academia (including my top choice of Michigan)


Yeah, I've def. heard some dynamic things about 'Dozo, and it's not just how they promote themselves. Versatile, well-published faculty, diverse curriculum/program... what I've heard.

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nealric
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Re: Brooklyn-31k a year

Postby nealric » Fri Mar 19, 2010 12:10 am

Even if you aren't sure if the deposit deadline is passed, you really should indicate what the other school is to get accurate advice. Is it Fordham? You can always deposit at BLS and then turn them down- the point of the deposit is to compensate them if you do decide to turn them down.

I might consider the offer in your situation, but I would frankly drop out or transfer to a school like CUNY if I lost my scholarship.

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OperaSoprano
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Re: Brooklyn-31k a year

Postby OperaSoprano » Fri Mar 19, 2010 12:14 am

I didn't struggle at all with my own decision, because I promised myself I would choose without regard to cost. I'm not wealthy, but I knew I would only get to do this once, and resolved to give myself the best experience possible. I am borrowing sticker to attend Fordham, and will pay it off using IBR and my school's LRAP. I have no regrets, because this was the right choice for me-- given my background, I know I'll need everything my school can give me. I am not against taking the money at lower ranked schools in all situations, because it obviously depends on what you plan to do with your degree, and where you will be happy. That said, I would feel much better about telling you to take money from Cardozo or Rutgers. My views about BLS are well known, and I won't go into them here-- I met someone whose roommate had his scholarship yanked for failure to stay in the top half. The school is also known for having "forgotten" to report part time numbers to USNews last year.

You have almost a month before seat deposits are due at most schools. More news should be on its way... I would wait to make your decision until you have initial news from all your schools. (This advice is very subjective, and as you know, I have strong opinions about the schools you are considering. My choice may not be the one you should make, but looking back, I would do it again in an instant.)

blsingindisguise
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Re: Brooklyn-31k a year

Postby blsingindisguise » Fri Mar 19, 2010 12:14 am

lostjake wrote: That being said, Cardozo will place you in Academia. I'm in the mid west, but if I didn't get into H/Y I'd be going to Cardozo. Seriously they're on the rise and have placed many in Academia (including my top choice of Michigan)


Um, this is the sort of claim you really have no business making as a 0L - you're just misleading people. Academia is really really competitive for people who graduate from Yale, Harvard and Stanford. Plus given the relative youth of Cardozo it probably doesn't have many grads in academia.

blsingindisguise
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Re: Brooklyn-31k a year

Postby blsingindisguise » Fri Mar 19, 2010 12:16 am

OperaSoprano wrote:My views about BLS are well known, and I won't go into them here-- I met someone whose roommate had his scholarship yanked for failure to stay in the top half.


This is standard policy at a lot of T2 schools - Cardozo has identical class rank requirements for maintaining scholarship. It's also disclosed when you enter.

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lostjake
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Re: Brooklyn-31k a year

Postby lostjake » Fri Mar 19, 2010 12:18 am

blsingindisguise wrote:
lostjake wrote: That being said, Cardozo will place you in Academia. I'm in the mid west, but if I didn't get into H/Y I'd be going to Cardozo. Seriously they're on the rise and have placed many in Academia (including my top choice of Michigan)


Um, this is the sort of claim you really have no business making as a 0L - you're just misleading people. Academia is really really competitive for people who graduate from Yale, Harvard and Stanford. Plus given the relative youth of Cardozo it probably doesn't have many grads in academia.



True True. It would be better to say, you have no chance at Academia. At all. But, if you really really wanted to do it, 'Dozo would be your best chance. Not sure about the youth statement, you might need some facts to back that one up.

blsingindisguise
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Re: Brooklyn-31k a year

Postby blsingindisguise » Fri Mar 19, 2010 12:23 am

Cardozo was established in 1976 - that means only its first 10 or 15 classes are really even old enough to be tenured professors at this point. And I doubt its first few classes were very distinguished back when the school wasn't established.

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lostjake
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Re: Brooklyn-31k a year

Postby lostjake » Fri Mar 19, 2010 12:26 am

Errr. No? Are you talking about T15 or what? I'm going to have to ask for some facts here, instead of speculation? k thnx.

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vanwinkle
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Re: Brooklyn-31k a year

Postby vanwinkle » Fri Mar 19, 2010 12:29 am

I saw the thread title and thought this was going to be a discussion of the annual starting salary Brooklyn public defenders get.




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