Engage: HLS vs Penn with Levy ($110,000) Forum

[EijiMiyake]

More food for thought. Assuming I am right that getting the same job from Penn and Harvard will lead to a difference in savings of $400,000. And assuming a person works for 30 years after law school, then that totals about $13,000 per year as the cost of a Harvard education (or $1000 per month or $100 per day).

Where do you get $400k from?

yeah, that's confusing me too.

I think he is talking about the possibility of investing/getting returns on that 110,000 over the course of his career.

[Unemployed]

More food for thought. Assuming I am right that getting the same job from Penn and Harvard will lead to a difference in savings of $400,000. And assuming a person works for 30 years after law school, then that totals about $13,000 per year as the cost of a Harvard education (or $1000 per month or $100 per day).

Where do you get $400k from?

yeah, that's confusing me too.

I think he is talking about the possibility of investing/getting returns on that 110,000 over the course of his career.

Right, because PennLaw is so interdisciplinary. Everyone who takes a finance course at Wharton can turn 110,000 into 400,000, no problem.

[AngryAvocado]

The logic that OP is exhibiting in his posts pretty much proves that students admitted to HLS aren't substantially smarter than those admitted elsewhere. Take Harvard and never, ever look back. 110k is a lot of money, but it's trivial compared to your lifetime career prospects--especially coming out of HLS.

[rayiner]

More food for thought. Assuming I am right that getting the same job from Penn and Harvard will lead to a difference in savings of $400,000. And assuming a person works for 30 years after law school, then that totals about $13,000 per year as the cost of a Harvard education (or $1000 per month or $100 per day).

Where do you get $400k from?

yeah, that's confusing me too.

I think he is talking about the possibility of investing/getting returns on that 110,000 over the course of his career.

Then he also needs to factor in the substantial additional risk of missing biglaw from Penn and the expected monetary loss from that.

[vanwinkle]

I just realized that Van Wrinkle

Why do you keep calling me that?

[heyguys]

I think this is a personal decision, but I would measure how much debt you would be taking with the Levy. If it's more than you could make in a year doing something else, then I would go to HLS; if not, I would take the Levy. Personally, I would choose Penn/Mich/Columbia with a full scholly over any of HYS.

[zapper]

For what it's worth, the greater numbers for Harvard have something to do with the fact that historically Harvard has always been in a different league. But that doesn't necessarily mean that the disparities will be as large in the next 50 years.

[EijiMiyake]

I just realized that Van Wrinkle

Why do you keep calling me that?

Oops, sorry dood.

[ConMan345]

Harvard. At Penn you stand a good shot of striking out of biglaw entirely.

But that's ok, isn't it?

Without any debt... who cares if I don't get big law. I could become a middle school teacher if I wanted.

That's retarded. Why waste 3 years and $80k in living expenses to become a middle school teacher? You're ignoring the enormous opportunity costs!

An 80% shot at a career you really want, whether it be biglaw or interesting public interest or whatever, is definitely worth an extra $110k over a 50% shot. Even if you got biglaw from Penn, HLS will give you your pick of firms --- you can even go into lifestyle firms with lower billable hours (which are competitive for obvious reasons), instead of just scrambling for whatever V100 you can get an offer from. That's definitely worth $110k.

I probably would've given different advice a couple of years ago, when 40% of Penn grads were getting V25 jobs and with HLS you were paying a lot for prestige and intangible exit opportunities in the future to turn down $$$ at T14 for HLS. Now, you're paying for real differences in career opportunities, and over a 30 year career $110k is peanuts.

The federal IBR also renders taking the scholarship much less attractive. If you do go into PI, you'll pay about 1 year's salary total, including interest, towards your loans, regardless of how much debt you have. So taking HLS won't stop you from going to a great PI/government job because of debt (that's the whole point of federal IBR). If you do go into biglaw, you'll spend a couple of years longer paying off your loans, but you'll get your choice of firms, which will help exit options down the line, etc.

The only scenario in which it makes sense to take the money at Penn is if you want to do some sort of midlaw practice where tax-free 10 year IBR isn't in play and you won't be able to rely on biglaw $$$ to help pay down your debt.

Not to mention that LIPP covers any legal employment. So, if you strike out of biglaw, go to midlaw, smallaw even, making 60k, you'll still have your debt paid off in ten years and bring home a livable salary. For me (someone who isn't terribly interested in PI), LIPP is really attractive, even if PI LRAPs give you more money.

Edit: under LIPP, someone making 60k contributes 6k a year to loans.

[cflames7]

[

Where do you get $400k from?

$110,000 loans + interest ($90,000) = $200,000. Saving this by working after Penn vs. paying off a loan from Harvard ($10,000 in interest accumulation for 20 more years = $200,000).

Total cost of a Harvard education on career earnings = $400,000

Then he also needs to factor in the substantial additional risk of missing biglaw from Penn and the expected monetary loss from that.

This is exactly it. The underlying assumption is that the a student will land the SAME (or substantially similar) job regardless of law school choice between Penn and Harvard.

How true is this assumption? Based on money alone, both schools have a median starting salary of $160,000 before ITE. (or course, who knows where we sit today).

The logic that OP is exhibiting in his posts pretty much proves that students admitted to HLS aren't substantially smarter than those admitted elsewhere. Take Harvard and never, ever look back. 110k is a lot of money, but it's trivial compared to your lifetime career prospects--especially coming out of HLS.

Or maybe it proves exactly the opposite. I am eliciting some very useful information by playing the devil's advocate and being as frustrating and difficult as possible.

[vanwinkle]

Or maybe it proves exactly the opposite. I am eliciting some very useful information by playing the devil's advocate and being as frustrating and difficult as possible.

It's a pretty fair assumption to make that if someone says something, it's because they believe it, not because they're playing mind games/devil's advocate/whatever. 99.9% of the time that's the case, and the other .01% is rightly regarded as "special" or "crazy".

[rayiner]

$110,000 loans + interest ($90,000) = $200,000. Saving this by working after Penn vs. paying off a loan from Harvard ($10,000 in interest accumulation for 20 more years = $200,000).

Total cost of a Harvard education on career earnings = $400,000

Where are you getting those ridiculous interest figures? On a 10-year repayment, which is entirely possible with biglaw, interest on $100k of loans comes out to $45,000. So the total cost delta is $145k assuming you don't pre-pay.

This is exactly it. The underlying assumption is that the a student will land the SAME (or substantially similar) job regardless of law school choice between Penn and Harvard.

That's a dumb assumption. According to the initial reports, 2-3x as many people from Penn struck out of biglaw as from Harvard. You have to factor in that risk.

[AngryAvocado]

$110,000 loans + interest ($90,000) = $200,000. Saving this by working after Penn vs. paying off a loan from Harvard ($10,000 in interest accumulation for 20 more years = $200,000).

Total cost of a Harvard education on career earnings = $400,000

Where are you getting those ridiculous interest figures? On a 10-year repayment, which is entirely possible with biglaw, interest on $100k of loans comes out to $45,000. So the total cost delta is $145k assuming you don't pre-pay.

This is exactly it. The underlying assumption is that the a student will land the SAME (or substantially similar) job regardless of law school choice between Penn and Harvard.

That's a dumb assumption. According to the initial reports, 2-3x as many people from Penn struck out of biglaw as from Harvard. You have to factor in that risk.

The more OP posts, the more convinced I am that he'd be lucky to hit median at Penn. Seriously, go to HLS.

[cflames7]

$110,000 loans + interest ($90,000) = $200,000. Saving this by working after Penn vs. paying off a loan from Harvard ($10,000 in interest accumulation for 20 more years = $200,000).

Total cost of a Harvard education on career earnings = $400,000

Where are you getting those ridiculous interest figures? On a 10-year repayment, which is entirely possible with biglaw, interest on $100k of loans comes out to $45,000. So the total cost delta is $145k assuming you don't pre-pay.

This is exactly it. The underlying assumption is that the a student will land the SAME (or substantially similar) job regardless of law school choice between Penn and Harvard.

That's a dumb assumption. According to the initial reports, 2-3x as many people from Penn struck out of biglaw as from Harvard. You have to factor in that risk.

I am not trying to say my assumption is right, I am just looking for proof that the assumption is wrong.



What interest rate are you using? I used 8%. Given that the majority of these loans will be interest bearing from the moment you take them (the start of each academic year), i see a debt of roughly $128,000 before even graduating. Then assuming it takes 10 years to pay that debt... i come out at roughly $180,000.

Then I am investing that (after having saved it, rather than giving it to Harvard). 5% interest per year for an additional 20 years, until i retire. I just did the math, taking into interest compound annually:

Future Value = Present Value (1 + interest rate)^years
Future Value = $180,000 (1 + 0.05) ^ (20)
Future Value = $477593

So, in 30 years (plus 3 years law school), the cost of my debt in interest paid and foregone interest earned would be NEARLY half a million!

Again, we are assuming that the person lands a job paying the same SALARY from both Penn and Harvard.

[cflames7]

Again, I am not saying that the person from Penn and Harvard WILL land the same salary.

But, that is a lot of money to be giving up for a Harvard biglaw Insurance Plan.

----

Truthfully, I will probably end up at Harvard.
Realistically, I will probably never regret it.

But life looks green on both sides of the fence, and the Penn side seems a lot more relaxed (no debt burden, ever... just start saving from the get go)

[Na_Swatch]

I am not trying to say my assumption is right, I am just looking for proof that the assumption is wrong.



What interest rate are you using? I used 8%. Given that the majority of these loans will be interest bearing from the moment you take them (the start of each academic year), i see a debt of roughly $128,000 before even graduating. Then assuming it takes 10 years to pay that debt... i come out at roughly $180,000.

Then I am investing that (after having saved it, rather than giving it to Harvard). 5% interest per year for an additional 20 years, until i retire. I just did the math, taking into interest compound annually:

Future Value = Present Value (1 + interest rate)^years
Future Value = $180,000 (1 + 0.05) ^ (20)
Future Value = $477593

So, in 30 years (plus 3 years law school), the cost of my debt in interest paid and foregone interest earned would be NEARLY half a million!

Again, we are assuming that the person lands a job paying the same SALARY from both Penn and Harvard.

The thing is if you are discounting things to 30 years in the futures, anything gets magnified to that degree. If the Harvard degree grants you just one or two better opportunities during the first 10 years, then the gains from those, if financial, will be similarly multiplied. The way you're discounting the debt is thus not very realistic for a straight up comparison.

[rayiner]

I am not trying to say my assumption is right, I am just looking for proof that the assumption is wrong.



What interest rate are you using? I used 8%. Given that the majority of these loans will be interest bearing from the moment you take them (the start of each academic year), i see a debt of roughly $128,000 before even graduating. Then assuming it takes 10 years to pay that debt... i come out at roughly $180,000.

Then I am investing that (after having saved it, rather than giving it to Harvard). 5% interest per year for an additional 20 years, until i retire. I just did the math, taking into interest compound annually:

Future Value = Present Value (1 + interest rate)^years
Future Value = $180,000 (1 + 0.05) ^ (20)
Future Value = $477593

So, in 30 years (plus 3 years law school), the cost of my debt in interest paid and foregone interest earned would be NEARLY half a million!

Again, we are assuming that the person lands a job paying the same SALARY from both Penn and Harvard.

The thing is if you are discounting things to 30 years in the futures, anything gets magnified to that degree. If the Harvard degree grants you just one or two better opportunities during the first 10 years, then the gains from those, if financial, will be similarly multiplied. The way you're discounting the debt is thus not very realistic for a straight up comparison.

+1.

[gilagarta]

Everyone here is talking about biglaw, but what about the same decision for someone who is certain they will do PI? I'm also debating Harvard v. Penn w/ Levy, but I know for a fact that I will do public interest work. I want to be able to get the best and most prestigious PI job after I graduate...not sure exactly in what area yet, but I want to make sure doors are open to me so I have options. I initially thought HLS, but one of my mentors (a Penn grad - obviously biased) seems to believe that Penn has better PI opportunities and that the advantages of being a bigger fish in a smaller pond are huge. Thoughts?

[GradPath2011]

any opinions on the ACLU?

[rayiner]

Everyone here is talking about biglaw, but what about the same decision for someone who is certain they will do PI? I'm also debating Harvard v. Penn w/ Levy, but I know for a fact that I will do public interest work. I want to be able to get the best and most prestigious PI job after I graduate...not sure exactly in what area yet, but I want to make sure doors are open to me so I have options. I initially thought HLS, but one of my mentors (a Penn grad - obviously biased) seems to believe that Penn has better PI opportunities and that the advantages of being a bigger fish in a smaller pond are huge. Thoughts?

Fed IBR renders any cost difference moot for PI work. You pay at most 10% of salary every year for 10 years, then get the rest forgiven tax-free. The whole point of Fed IBR is to allow people to make the Harvard versus somewhere else with $$ decision if they want PI.

[englawyer]

Everyone here is talking about biglaw, but what about the same decision for someone who is certain they will do PI? I'm also debating Harvard v. Penn w/ Levy, but I know for a fact that I will do public interest work. I want to be able to get the best and most prestigious PI job after I graduate...not sure exactly in what area yet, but I want to make sure doors are open to me so I have options. I initially thought HLS, but one of my mentors (a Penn grad - obviously biased) seems to believe that Penn has better PI opportunities and that the advantages of being a bigger fish in a smaller pond are huge. Thoughts?

big fish in a small pond is not an advantage. you won't know how big of a fish you are (can't reliably predict performance based on stats due to range-restriction) and the size of the pond is a wash (big ponds get more recruiters, small ponds seem more exclusive/rare)

[cflames7]

Everyone here is talking about biglaw, but what about the same decision for someone who is certain they will do PI? I'm also debating Harvard v. Penn w/ Levy, but I know for a fact that I will do public interest work. I want to be able to get the best and most prestigious PI job after I graduate...not sure exactly in what area yet, but I want to make sure doors are open to me so I have options. I initially thought HLS, but one of my mentors (a Penn grad - obviously biased) seems to believe that Penn has better PI opportunities and that the advantages of being a bigger fish in a smaller pond are huge. Thoughts?

I think Harvard's LIPP is pretty good.

If you are certain you want Public Interest, and for at least 10 years (all of which come directly after graduation) then I think Harvard wins.

Harvard opens many doors due to name recognition alone. People in Korea have never heard of Penn... but i guarantee you everyone knows Harvard.

I like big fish in small pond too, part of the attraction to Penn, but when it comes to Harvard vs Penn, Harvard seems to be filled will ALL big fish (or mostly big fish anyways).

[soullesswonder]

Everyone here is talking about biglaw, but what about the same decision for someone who is certain they will do PI? I'm also debating Harvard v. Penn w/ Levy, but I know for a fact that I will do public interest work. I want to be able to get the best and most prestigious PI job after I graduate...not sure exactly in what area yet, but I want to make sure doors are open to me so I have options. I initially thought HLS, but one of my mentors (a Penn grad - obviously biased) seems to believe that Penn has better PI opportunities and that the advantages of being a bigger fish in a smaller pond are huge. Thoughts?

True story as I heard on the PI panel at Harvard ASW:

Student walks into OPIA to say, "I bailed out of OCI and I need a summer job."
Director of OPIA says, "What's your dream job?"
Student: "I want to work for the Women's Rights project/initiative/whatever at the ACLU"
Director: "Oh, I know that project's director - I'll send her an email."

ACLU project director responds to email within ten minutes, asking student to send in her resume and a cover letter before they interview her. Student gets a phone interview a few weeks later and gets the job about an hour or two after the phone interview. The student believes that the OPIA director deserves the vast majority of the credit for putting her in a position of only needing to prove she wasn't a mouthbreather in order to seal the deal. Keep in mind, this is the ACLU, probably one of the toughest gets in PI.

Moral of the story: GO TO HARVARD

[vanwinkle]

Everyone here is talking about biglaw, but what about the same decision for someone who is certain they will do PI? I'm also debating Harvard v. Penn w/ Levy, but I know for a fact that I will do public interest work. I want to be able to get the best and most prestigious PI job after I graduate...not sure exactly in what area yet, but I want to make sure doors are open to me so I have options. I initially thought HLS, but one of my mentors (a Penn grad - obviously biased) seems to believe that Penn has better PI opportunities and that the advantages of being a bigger fish in a smaller pond are huge. Thoughts?

True story as I heard on the PI panel at Harvard ASW:

Student walks into OPIA to say, "I bailed out of OCI and I need a summer job."
Director of OPIA says, "What's your dream job?"
Student: "I want to work for the Women's Rights project/initiative/whatever at the ACLU"
Director: "Oh, I know that project's director - I'll send her an email."

ACLU project director responds to email within ten minutes, asking student to send in her resume and a cover letter before they interview her. Student gets a phone interview a few weeks later and gets the job about an hour or two after the phone interview. The student believes that the OPIA director deserves the vast majority of the credit for putting her in a position of only needing to prove she wasn't a mouthbreather in order to seal the deal. Keep in mind, this is the ACLU, probably one of the toughest gets in PI.

Moral of the story: GO TO HARVARD

This sounds like Harvard.

[gilagarta]

I'm curious...did OP (and anyone else here facing this decision) decide to go with HLS or Levy?

I decided on HLS.