Engage: HLS vs Penn with Levy ($110,000) Forum

[cflames7]

There have been some vicious debates on TLS lately, so I hope this one gets just as exciting.

HLS vs Penn with Levy ($110,000)

I have not heard what need aid HLS is offering, so that will obviously affect things.
For what it is worth, most people on LSN with the same position chose HLS. But $110,000 is a heck of a lot of money.

[dakatz]

A T-10 school for nearly free? ITE, thats definitely what I would choose. No debt, and amazing job opportunities in one package.

[vanwinkle]

Kinda depends on what you're planning on doing... though in most situations I'd still take HLS.

[lakerfanimal]

Well what do you want to do? If you want to get clerkships/academia after law school I think it's reasonable to turn down that much money at Penn for Harvard.. Also you might want to visit both areas and see which school you like/fit in more.

[cflames7]

A T-10 school for nearly free? ITE, thats definitely what I would choose. No debt, and amazing job opportunities in one package.

That's what I am thinking.

But then I get stars in my eyes when I hear Harvard Law School. Harvard, has a nice ring, doesn't it? A life of debt for a nice ring and starry eyes... most choose this route for some reason.

REALISTICALLY, how different are the job prospects and opportunities between these two?

Also, what about the quality of life. Grades at Penn (competitive, right?) vs no grades at Harvard (fun, right?) - obviously I am simplifying, but the point remains.

[cflames7]

Well what do you want to do? If you want to get clerkships/academia after law school I think it's reasonable to turn down that much money at Penn for Harvard.. Also you might want to visit both areas and see which school you like/fit in more.

For what it is worth, I love Boston/Cambridge. I love Harvard.

But I love the interdisciplinary nature of Penn. Law school plus other stuff = cool. And the small class sizes are great too!

I have dreamed of HLS since I was young (middle school maybe). But the idea of a free ride to an Ivy didn't cross my mind until, oh, three weeks ago. This is what I should have been dreaming of.

I would hate to sell out my dream for money. But I would hate to be the guy who has to bust his ass doing high paying work that sucks to pay off debt that he didn't need to take.

[vanwinkle]

Well what do you want to do? If you want to get clerkships/academia after law school I think it's reasonable to turn down that much money at Penn for Harvard.. Also you might want to visit both areas and see which school you like/fit in more.

Dude, both of these are Ivy schools with very similar atmospheres. I also don't think that at this level it's really appropriate to use "which school you like/fit in more" as a criteria. That's useful for differentiating between peer schools (like, choosing between MVP) but for this? There are plenty of circumstances here where liking or fitting into the school doesn't even belong in the equation.

Anyone who goes "I want to clerk and then go into academia, but I like the atmosphere at Penn more so I'll go there" is an idiot. If you don't like being at Harvard, well, people don't go to Harvard because they like being at Harvard. They go to Harvard because Harvard grads have the magical power to consume success and shit solid gold.

[cflames7]

Well what do you want to do? If you want to get clerkships/academia after law school I think it's reasonable to turn down that much money at Penn for Harvard.. Also you might want to visit both areas and see which school you like/fit in more.

Dude, both of these are Ivy schools with very similar atmospheres. I also don't think that at this level it's really appropriate to use "which school you like/fit in more" as a criteria. That's useful for differentiating between peer schools (like, choosing between MVP) but for this? There are plenty of circumstances here where liking or fitting into the school doesn't even belong in the equation.

Anyone who goes "I want to clerk and then go into academia, but I like the atmosphere at Penn more so I'll go there" is an idiot. If you don't like being at Harvard, well, people don't go to Harvard because they like being at Harvard. They go to Harvard because Harvard grads have the magical power to consume success and shit solid gold.

How much magical power to consume success and shit solid gold do Penn Law grads have.

What about flexibility? How much flexibility to debt-less Penn law grads have over those with $110+K at HLS?

And internationally? HLS is know EVERYWHERE! University of Pennswho? I've heard of Ohio, Florida, and Washington. State school, right? - This comment shows the inner prestige whore coming out in me.

[Na_Swatch]

Well what do you want to do? If you want to get clerkships/academia after law school I think it's reasonable to turn down that much money at Penn for Harvard.. Also you might want to visit both areas and see which school you like/fit in more.

For what it is worth, I love Boston/Cambridge. I love Harvard.

But I love the interdisciplinary nature of Penn. Law school plus other stuff = cool. And the small class sizes are great too!

I have dreamed of HLS since I was young (middle school maybe). But the idea of a free ride to an Ivy didn't cross my mind until, oh, three weeks ago. This is what I should have been dreaming of.

I would hate to sell out my dream for money. But I would hate to be the guy who has to bust his ass doing high paying work that sucks to pay off debt that he didn't need to take.

Well figure out exactly what the price difference is first before you make a decision. Have you applied to aid at H yet?

Right now with the Levy your looking at say $190,000 debt versus $80,000 debt. However, if Harvard gives you $10,000 to $15,000 a year in grant aid, then the difference drops down to say $75,000. At that point it seems the benefits at Harvard outweigh the difference.

[soullesswonder]

If you're cool with the idea of working in BigLaw, then you can pay off that Harvard debt no problem and therefore you should go to HLS. Same goes if you're set on PI. I think the Levy's appeal is that it would enable you to go hunt for a second-tier firm that doesn't pay as much but doesn't do as much damage to your soul. Because you seem enamored by Harvard and because I think "top" scholarships that don't fully cover tuition are ridiculous, you should pack your bags for Cambridge.

[dbt]

Always keep in mind that if you're getting the Levy (and I'm sure you're aware of this) you're more likely to be a big fish at Penn, whereas you never know at Harvard. If you've gotten a Levy, then you probably have exceptional numbers. However, numbers don't absolutely translate into law school success, so you never know there either.

Still, unless you want academia, I would go for Penn.

[englawyer]

HLS

[EijiMiyake]

Always keep in mind that if you're getting the Levy (and I'm sure you're aware of this) you're more likely to be a big fish at Penn, whereas you never know at Harvard. If you've gotten a Levy, then you probably have exceptional numbers. However, numbers don't absolutely translate into law school success, so you never know there either.

Still, unless you want academia, I would go for Penn.

I'm inclined to think that student quality is so high, and undifferentiated, at most of the top schools that it's difficult to assume anything about performance. I think the big fish comment might be more relevant in that the Penn administration might go to bat for you a little bit more than the average student if you need professors/career folks to make calls for you or let you know about opportunities.

[vanwinkle]

How much magical power to consume success and shit solid gold do Penn Law grads have.

Number of SCOTUS justices produced by HLS: 15
Number of SCOTUS justices produced by Penn Law: 1

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_la ... es_trained

Number of Presidents of the United States produced by HLS: 2
Number of Presidents of the United States produced by Penn Law: 0

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Pr ... _education

Number of current U.S. Senators produced by HLS: 5
Number of current U.S. Senators produced by Penn Law: 0

Source: --LinkRemoved--

Total number of SCOTUS clerks produced by HLS, 2000-2008: 83
Total number of SCOTUS clerks produced by Penn Law, 2000-2008: 3

Source: http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2000 ... erks.shtml

Number of currently practicing law professors with HLS degrees: 993
Number of currently practicing law professors with Penn Law degrees: 152

Source: http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2009 ... hing.shtml

To answer your equestion, relative to HLS, I'd say... not very much.

[Lurkster]

Penn Law grads have the power to consume success and shit pyrite.

**edited for accuracy in light of vanwinkle's post.

[dbt]

How much magical power to consume success and shit solid gold do Penn Law grads have.

Number of SCOTUS justices produced by HLS: 15
Number of SCOTUS justices produced by Penn Law: 1

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_la ... es_trained

Number of Presidents of the United States produced by HLS: 2
Number of Presidents of the United States produced by Penn Law: 0

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Pr ... _education

Number of current U.S. Senators produced by HLS: 5
Number of current U.S. Senators produced by Penn Law: 0

Source: --LinkRemoved--

Total number of SCOTUS clerks produced by HLS, 2000-2008: 83
Total number of SCOTUS clerks produced by Penn Law, 2000-2008: 3

Source: http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2000 ... erks.shtml

Number of currently practicing law professors with HLS degrees: 993
Number of currently practicing law professors with Penn Law degrees: 152

Source: http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2009 ... hing.shtml

To answer your equestion, relative to HLS, I'd say... not very much.

Wow...yea HLS then.

[EijiMiyake]

How much magical power to consume success and shit solid gold do Penn Law grads have.

Number of SCOTUS justices produced by HLS: 15
Number of SCOTUS justices produced by Penn Law: 1

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_la ... es_trained

Number of Presidents of the United States produced by HLS: 2
Number of Presidents of the United States produced by Penn Law: 0

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Pr ... _education

Number of current U.S. Senators produced by HLS: 5
Number of current U.S. Senators produced by Penn Law: 0

Source: --LinkRemoved--

Total number of SCOTUS clerks produced by HLS, 2000-2008: 83
Total number of SCOTUS clerks produced by Penn Law, 2000-2008: 3

Source: http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2000 ... erks.shtml

Number of currently practicing law professors with HLS degrees: 993
Number of currently practicing law professors with Penn Law degrees: 152

Source: http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2009 ... hing.shtml

To answer your equestion, relative to HLS, I'd say... not very much.

I'm not sure how serious you are, but it seems kind of silly to base any decision on SCOTUS clerk hiring, for example, when even HLS placed only 83. True, 83 is a lot more than 3, but also a lot fewer than 4500 (approximate HLS grads in 8 years).

[cflames7]

If you're cool with the idea of working in BigLaw, then you can pay off that Harvard debt no problem and therefore you should go to HLS. Same goes if you're set on PI. I think the Levy's appeal is that it would enable you to go hunt for a second-tier firm that doesn't pay as much but doesn't do as much damage to your soul. Because you seem enamored by Harvard and because I think "top" scholarships that don't fully cover tuition are ridiculous, you should pack your bags for Cambridge.

I have trouble with justifying HLS by saying I can pay the debt no problem with BigLaw, unless it is only HLS that brings high paying BigLaw.

To think about it another way, say both HLS and Penn offer the same job prospects. Now say that I have $110,000 in loans to pay off. There is interest on that right? Over 5-10 years, say $90,000 more. So that's $200,000 I need to pay off.

No problem, 5-10 years and the debt is paid. But wait? What if I went to Penn?

Well, then I would have $200,000 sitting in the bank or invested (that I would have saved rather than paying back loans). Not only that, this money is getting me interest. At 5%, that is an additional $10,000 per year in interest.

So not only have a foregone $200,000 is savings, I have also dropped $10,000 per year in perpetually compounding interest. Forget the compounding. After 20 years of working, that compounded interest is now worth $200,000 in its own right and I am earning $10,000 per year in interest on this.

So when I retire, this decision will be the different between $400,000 in the bank and its $20,000 per year in interest or a HLS debt that was successfully paid. (None of this includes subsequent savings in either situation after paying off the debt).

THE KEY ASSUMPTION: -Both degrees lead to the same type of jobs.

Is this a fair assumption? (I am dead serious)

[soullesswonder]

If you're cool with the idea of working in BigLaw, then you can pay off that Harvard debt no problem and therefore you should go to HLS. Same goes if you're set on PI. I think the Levy's appeal is that it would enable you to go hunt for a second-tier firm that doesn't pay as much but doesn't do as much damage to your soul. Because you seem enamored by Harvard and because I think "top" scholarships that don't fully cover tuition are ridiculous, you should pack your bags for Cambridge.

I have trouble with justifying HLS by saying I can pay the debt no problem with BigLaw, unless it is only HLS that brings high paying BigLaw.

To think about it another way, say both HLS and Penn offer the same job prospects. Now say that I have $110,000 in loans to pay off. There is interest on that right? Over 5-10 years, say $90,000 more. So that's $200,000 I need to pay off.

No problem, 5-10 years and the debt is paid. But wait? What if I went to Penn?

Well, then I would have $200,000 sitting in the bank or invested (that I would have saved rather than paying back loans). Not only that, this money is getting me interest. At 5%, that is an additional $10,000 per year in interest.

So not only have a foregone $200,000 is savings, I have also dropped $10,000 per year in perpetually compounding interest. Forget the compounding. After 20 years of working, that compounded interest is now worth $200,000 in its own right and I am earning $10,000 per year in interest on this.

So when I retire, this decision will be the different between $400,000 in the bank and its $20,000 per year in interest or a HLS debt that was successfully paid. (None of this includes subsequent savings in either situation after paying off the debt).

THE KEY ASSUMPTION: -Both degrees lead to the same type of jobs.

Is this a fair assumption? (I am dead serious)

ITE, Harvard has pulled away from the T10 pack in terms of placement. Is it within the realm of possibility that you could get the exact 160k job coming out of both schools? Absolutely. Will Harvard offer you a better shot, given its grading system and the willingness of employers to dig deeper into the class? Yes. Also keep in mind that there are fewer 160k jobs available due to recent cuts in starting salary rates. If you make 160k coming out of Harvard instead of 145k coming out of Penn, then that disparity would make a substantial dent in Penn's financial advantages.

EDIT for clarity: Harvard was already well ahead of the T10 pack anyway, but now they're even further removed.

[holydonkey]

Dude, this HLS grad set fire to a chapel holding the remains of people killed in 9/11 and is currently charged with arson and burglary and he still found a job ITE. You'd be a fool not to purchase the HLS bullet proof shield.

--LinkRemoved--

[sfdreaming09]

HLS no question, unless, like someone else mentioned earlier, you’re looking to work in midlaw or for some smaller firm or in some smaller market.

But if you want Biglaw, PI, gov’t, clerkships, academia, HYS is on a totally different playing filed than MVP.

Check out LSN, even for people who get full rides to Columbia, the vast majority choose to go to HYS.

[EijiMiyake]

I have trouble with justifying HLS by saying I can pay the debt no problem with BigLaw, unless it is only HLS that brings high paying BigLaw.

To think about it another way, say both HLS and Penn offer the same job prospects. Now say that I have $110,000 in loans to pay off. There is interest on that right? Over 5-10 years, say $90,000 more. So that's $200,000 I need to pay off.

No problem, 5-10 years and the debt is paid. But wait? What if I went to Penn?

Well, then I would have $200,000 sitting in the bank or invested (that I would have saved rather than paying back loans). Not only that, this money is getting me interest. At 5%, that is an additional $10,000 per year in interest.

So not only have a foregone $200,000 is savings, I have also dropped $10,000 per year in perpetually compounding interest. Forget the compounding. After 20 years of working, that compounded interest is now worth $200,000 in its own right and I am earning $10,000 per year in interest on this.

So when I retire, this decision will be the different between $400,000 in the bank and its $20,000 per year in interest or a HLS debt that was successfully paid. (None of this includes subsequent savings in either situation after paying off the debt).

THE KEY ASSUMPTION: -Both degrees lead to the same type of jobs.

Is this a fair assumption? (I am dead serious)

The answer is a qualified yes, depending on what do you want to do. (There are some opportunities that are substantially more available to you as a HLS grad than a Penn grad.) Are you interested in PI? How's Penn's LRAP? In that case, the scholarship matters less.

[EijiMiyake]

HLS no question, unless, like someone else mentioned earlier, you’re looking to work in midlaw or for some smaller firm or in some smaller market.

But if you want Biglaw, PI, gov’t, clerkships, academia, HYS is on a totally different playing filed than MVP.

Check out LSN, even for people who get full rides to Columbia, the vast majority choose to go to HYS.

That doesn't mean they made the right decision.

[cflames7]

This is the type of DATA I am looking for (can anybody guess what my major was?)

15 SCOTUS justices vs 1 = both have less than 0.01% chance of leading to a career as a SCOTUS justice
Same is true with Presidents, Senators.

Clerks - Penn odds = 0%. Havard has 10 per year (on average). Harvard has 500 students. 10/500 = 2%. Not looking THAT much better.

Law profs, well... Havard's class is 2.5time bigger than Penns. So divide by 2.5 (or multiply Penn by 2.5) and the numbers don't look as bad. Still, 300% better chance of being a law professor if you have a Harvard Law degree.

___________________

It is CLEAR that HLS places better in all these positions.

The question is then, does this same trend trickle down to every other position as well?
Answer, PROBABLY!

Then, why is this?
A. Harvard's superior reputation and educational quality
B. Self-selection of stop students to Harvard Law School.

If it is B. then people going to Penn have no worse odds, as law school is irrelevant. It is all about the person themselves. So, Cooley here I come.

How much magical power to consume success and shit solid gold do Penn Law grads have.

Number of SCOTUS justices produced by HLS: 15
Number of SCOTUS justices produced by Penn Law: 1

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_la ... es_trained

Number of Presidents of the United States produced by HLS: 2
Number of Presidents of the United States produced by Penn Law: 0

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Pr ... _education

Number of current U.S. Senators produced by HLS: 5
Number of current U.S. Senators produced by Penn Law: 0

Source: --LinkRemoved--

Total number of SCOTUS clerks produced by HLS, 2000-2008: 83
Total number of SCOTUS clerks produced by Penn Law, 2000-2008: 3

Source: http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2000 ... erks.shtml

Number of currently practicing law professors with HLS degrees: 993
Number of currently practicing law professors with Penn Law degrees: 152

Source: http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2009 ... hing.shtml

To answer your equestion, relative to HLS, I'd say... not very much.

[vanwinkle]

I'm not sure how serious you are, but it seems kind of silly to base any decision on SCOTUS clerk hiring, for example, when even HLS placed only 83. True, 83 is a lot more than 3, but also a lot fewer than 4500 (approximate HLS grads in 8 years).

You're making an enormous mistake, and that's looking at these numbers as only their own value, and not what they really are, which is representative of a much greater phenomenon: The HLS degree carries far more prestige and opens more doors than a Penn degree. Even if you don't get to be one of those 83 or so HLS grads that clerk for SCOTUS in the next 8 years, that extra prestige still extends to ease in getting COA clerkships (which there are many, many more of available), academic jobs (those 993 professors that graduated from HLS didn't all clerk for SCOTUS), and so on and so forth.

It also extends to BigLaw. Law firms love HLS grads because they can use the number of HLS grads in their employment as a selling point to clients. They can use the fact that they're putting an HLS grad on a client's case as a selling point to the client. Clients know and love the HLS name. With the economy the way it is, firms have been cutting back hiring by cutting how deep they go pretty much everywhere, but they go a lot deeper at HLS than they do almost anywhere else, even the lower T14.

Penn still places well in BigLaw (not at the same level as HLS, but can still place well), and if that's all you're after then going to Penn might make more sense because Penn's placement in BigLaw is still strong and you don't need all the prestige you can get to help you there, like you do in the clerkships and academia markets. Simply going to Penn and doing well will be enough to get you a job in BigLaw.

Of course, if you go to Penn you'll probably get a job in BigLaw, but not the job you want... you'll be doing what a lot of lower T14 kids are doing and applying across the country in the hope of getting something. The additional prestige of HLS helps ensure you'll get a job in the city you want and with the type/size of firm you want.