Best Tier 2 Law Schools

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PDaddy
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Re: Best Tier 2 Law Schools

Postby PDaddy » Tue Mar 30, 2010 3:06 pm

toolshed wrote:
PDaddy wrote:
Always Credited wrote:Also, to add to the argument on the previous page....

UM is a shithole. Those uberawesomerichashell lawyers from UM that were mentioned? They probably graduated before it became a shithole.

Just sayin'. FSU and UF are both credited for Florida, though.


Nope. Like I said. If USNWR decided to change its methodology, and the resulting rankings of the schools by extension, the job prospects of the schools would immediately re-adjust to line up with the rankings. Except for the obviously esteemed schools, i.e. HYS CC plus Nu, Mich, UVA, Berkeley, Penn, Cornell, GULC and a few others with long standing traditions of excellence, the USNWR rankings has to a degree, "caused" the job prospects at certain schools to be what they are.

Despite having only superficially researched the issue, I'm confident that there is data to back this up. NYU wasn't always a top-5 school, so it could provide some evidence, as could WUSTL, which jumped in rankings suddenly around late 1990's or 2000. If the improved job prospects at such schools appears to follow but mirror their rise in the rankings, we have some pedagogical evidence that schools' job offerings do not infer relative quality.


Nope. They may change over time, but they wouldn't change overnight. Firms hire from schools that produce a "known" type of graduate. If Miami became a top 20 school overnight, certain firms that were comfortable hiring in that range wouldn't swoop in and start hiring 50% deep in that class. Like everything else in the industry, slow change is the only effective change.


I'll concede that "immediately" is a reach. But you get my correlation and causation argument. Both are evident here. And you obviously get the gist of what I am saying: there would be a shift in public perception and employer behavior. The tail wags the dog. The immediacy of the shift would depend, in large part, on the severity of the change(s) in schools' ranking(s).

keg411
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Re: Best Tier 2 Law Schools

Postby keg411 » Tue Mar 30, 2010 3:10 pm

darknightbegins wrote:
Always Credited wrote:Also, to add to the argument on the previous page....

UM is a shithole. Those uberawesomerichashell lawyers from UM that were mentioned? They probably graduated before it became a shithole.

Just sayin'. FSU and UF are both credited for Florida, though.


How is UM a shithole? Ever seen the campus or been to Coral Gabels? I'd take that over a fucking swamp.


+ infinite.

The UF campus is one of the creepiest places I have ever been to. I visited there for undergrad and my first thought was: "I can see why Ted Bundy came here".

MJMD
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Re: Best Tier 2 Law Schools

Postby MJMD » Tue Mar 30, 2010 3:12 pm


+ infinite.

The UF campus is one of the creepiest places I have ever been to. I visited there for undergrad and my first thought was: "I can see why Ted Bundy came here".


Dude, Ted Bundy went to Florida State.

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toolshed
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Re: Best Tier 2 Law Schools

Postby toolshed » Tue Mar 30, 2010 3:16 pm

PDaddy wrote:
toolshed wrote:
PDaddy wrote:
Always Credited wrote:Also, to add to the argument on the previous page....

UM is a shithole. Those uberawesomerichashell lawyers from UM that were mentioned? They probably graduated before it became a shithole.

Just sayin'. FSU and UF are both credited for Florida, though.


Nope. Like I said. If USNWR decided to change its methodology, and the resulting rankings of the schools by extension, the job prospects of the schools would immediately re-adjust to line up with the rankings. Except for the obviously esteemed schools, i.e. HYS CC plus Nu, Mich, UVA, Berkeley, Penn, Cornell, GULC and a few others with long standing traditions of excellence, the USNWR rankings has to a degree, "caused" the job prospects at certain schools to be what they are.

Despite having only superficially researched the issue, I'm confident that there is data to back this up. NYU wasn't always a top-5 school, so it could provide some evidence, as could WUSTL, which jumped in rankings suddenly around late 1990's or 2000. If the improved job prospects at such schools appears to follow but mirror their rise in the rankings, we have some pedagogical evidence that schools' job offerings do not infer relative quality.


Nope. They may change over time, but they wouldn't change overnight. Firms hire from schools that produce a "known" type of graduate. If Miami became a top 20 school overnight, certain firms that were comfortable hiring in that range wouldn't swoop in and start hiring 50% deep in that class. Like everything else in the industry, slow change is the only effective change.


I'll concede that "immediately" is a reach. But you get my correlation and causation argument. Both are evident here. And you get the gist of what I am saying: there would be a shift in public perception and employer behavior. The tail wags the dog.


If they were objectively a peer school as far as the type of graduates they produced, then that may follow. If they produce terrible work, then they won't place well--simple as that. Which is why schools are ranked the way they are and why schools don't jumpt 50 spots in the rankings from year to year. The initial ranking system may have been very subjective and hypothetical, but over time it has self-corrected by firms going back to the wells of the schools that created the lawyers that they like. A bit of that is laziness on the firms part for not taking on different graduates, but top 5% at T1s occasionally make it into these firms and showcase their skills. For some schools, these graduates help with the reputation, for others they don't. In 50 years the current rankings may not be accurate, but until something better comes along, they are a fairly accurate system for firms to use.

That being said, if a UF or a FSU is rated significantly better than a Miami, it is probably for a reason.

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darknightbegins
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Re: Best Tier 2 Law Schools

Postby darknightbegins » Tue Mar 30, 2010 3:19 pm

I have yet to see evidence that shows how FSU places as well as Miami in Miami.

Sky'stheLimit
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Re: Best Tier 2 Law Schools

Postby Sky'stheLimit » Tue Mar 30, 2010 3:22 pm

darknightbegins wrote:
Always Credited wrote:Also, to add to the argument on the previous page....

UM is a shithole. Those uberawesomerichashell lawyers from UM that were mentioned? They probably graduated before it became a shithole.

Just sayin'. FSU and UF are both credited for Florida, though.


How is UM a shithole? Ever seen the campus or been to Coral Gabels? I'd take that over a fucking swamp.



UM's campus is dated, but it's still beautiful. UF and FSU have an old southern appeal to them, which is nice too, but I would hardly say that they're better.

And Tally is horrible! 1/4 mile off campus you're in the Ghetto.

Gainesville is a small town, but i love it. There's nothing there but UF.

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toolshed
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Re: Best Tier 2 Law Schools

Postby toolshed » Tue Mar 30, 2010 3:22 pm

darknightbegins wrote:I have yet to see evidence that shows how FSU places as well as Miami in Miami.


I think the argument was that UF places as well, and cheaper. FSU probably wouldn't, but it would probably place a bit better in the rest of the state. I have no idea, never looked at the numbers for the FL schools. If I was determined to live in Miami, I would probably go UF>Miami unless the U offered some decent $$.

LegalGENius
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Re: Best Tier 2 Law Schools

Postby LegalGENius » Tue Mar 30, 2010 3:25 pm

Sky'stheLimit wrote:
darknightbegins wrote:
Always Credited wrote:Also, to add to the argument on the previous page....

UM is a shithole. Those uberawesomerichashell lawyers from UM that were mentioned? They probably graduated before it became a shithole.

Just sayin'. FSU and UF are both credited for Florida, though.


How is UM a shithole? Ever seen the campus or been to Coral Gabels? I'd take that over a fucking swamp.



UM's campus is dated, but it's still beautiful. UF and FSU have an old southern appeal to them, which is nice too, but I would hardly say that they're better.

And Tally is horrible! 1/4 mile off campus you're in the Ghetto.

Gainesville is a small town, but i love it. There's nothing there but UF.


Agreed. Plus, the city of Miami is endless. Lots to see and do, cultural melting pot, nightlife, beaches, etc.

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darknightbegins
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Re: Best Tier 2 Law Schools

Postby darknightbegins » Tue Mar 30, 2010 3:28 pm

toolshed wrote:
darknightbegins wrote:I have yet to see evidence that shows how FSU places as well as Miami in Miami.


I think the argument was that UF places as well, and cheaper. FSU probably wouldn't, but it would probably place a bit better in the rest of the state. I have no idea, never looked at the numbers for the FL schools. If I was determined to live in Miami, I would probably go UF>Miami unless the U offered some decent $$.


Miami's price is what kills it for me. If you are paying out of state tuition at Florida though you are looking at close to the same money. I hear getting in state after the first year can be a pain in the ass at Florida too.

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toolshed
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Re: Best Tier 2 Law Schools

Postby toolshed » Tue Mar 30, 2010 3:32 pm

darknightbegins wrote:
toolshed wrote:
darknightbegins wrote:I have yet to see evidence that shows how FSU places as well as Miami in Miami.


I think the argument was that UF places as well, and cheaper. FSU probably wouldn't, but it would probably place a bit better in the rest of the state. I have no idea, never looked at the numbers for the FL schools. If I was determined to live in Miami, I would probably go UF>Miami unless the U offered some decent $$.


Miami's price is what kills it for me. If you are paying out of state tuition at Florida though you are looking at close to the same money. I hear getting in state after the first year can be a pain in the ass at Florida too.


Agreed, if Miami was cheaper and you want to work there...probably the best choice. I'm not sure how strict the in-state requirement is in Florida anymore, but I never heard that it was as difficult as some of the other "problem" states like Texas/Virginia/etc.

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Always Credited
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Re: Best Tier 2 Law Schools

Postby Always Credited » Tue Mar 30, 2010 3:32 pm

Sky'stheLimit wrote:
darknightbegins wrote:
Always Credited wrote:Also, to add to the argument on the previous page....

UM is a shithole. Those uberawesomerichashell lawyers from UM that were mentioned? They probably graduated before it became a shithole.

Just sayin'. FSU and UF are both credited for Florida, though.


How is UM a shithole? Ever seen the campus or been to Coral Gabels? I'd take that over a fucking swamp.



UM's campus is dated, but it's still beautiful. UF and FSU have an old southern appeal to them, which is nice too, but I would hardly say that they're better.

And Tally is horrible! 1/4 mile off campus you're in the Ghetto.

Gainesville is a small town, but i love it. There's nothing there but UF.


When I said shithole, I wasn't referring to the campus. Look:

--LinkRemoved--

That's a link to the UM employment stats from 2008. A 39% response rate with 69% of those going into private practice. Average starting salary of those 39% responding was $87k and change. Look - that's an abysmal response rate for any school, especially a school you guys are considering as a Top TT law school.

It isn't as though all the big-earners of 2008 decided not to respond, and so that information is skewed to be too low. Just the opposite - that 39% was very likely the bulk of the top 50% of the class at UM, and STILL the employment data is sub-par to UF and FSU.

Did Miami do better than UF/FSU in Miami? Well I sure as hell hope so, cause it isn't going to win anywhere else. I simply feel UM is a law school that charges an outrageous amount of money for relatively poor career prospects, unless you do well and want to practice in Miami. But the same could be said at UF/FSU - do well, and Miami will certainly offer you a job...and you'd have less debt. Is a full ride to UM credited over UF/FSU if you ONLY want Miami? Sure. But that isn't substantial enough to make Miami a Top TT law school. The exact same could be said of any regional school.

Edit: Remember, 2008 was when things were GOOD for law. Nothing more recent has been released by UM. Now I'd wager that these employments stats, which are already dubious, would look disastrous.
Last edited by Always Credited on Tue Mar 30, 2010 3:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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whuts4lunch
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Re: Best Tier 2 Law Schools

Postby whuts4lunch » Tue Mar 30, 2010 3:34 pm

eagles86 wrote:I do think some people on here overplay the debt thing a little bit (not that it shouldnt be considered). Then again, I dont have any undergrad debt so my risk at Miami may be a bit lower than some. Some people compare Miami unfavorably to UF, FSU but you gotta remember how big of a state Florida is and I really don't have any desire to work in the northern/central part of the state.


Miami > UF and FSU for South Florida. I'm convinced of it; just talk to practicing lawyers in South Florida. The networking value of having gone to UMiami is extraordinary. I'm even considering Miami $ over Emory $. However, as a non-scholarship student, you should be wary that Miami has a substantial minority of scholarship students that heavily populate the top 1/3 of the class, so passing that benchmark may prove extremely difficult.

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darknightbegins
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Re: Best Tier 2 Law Schools

Postby darknightbegins » Tue Mar 30, 2010 4:03 pm

toolshed wrote:
darknightbegins wrote:
toolshed wrote:
darknightbegins wrote:I have yet to see evidence that shows how FSU places as well as Miami in Miami.


I think the argument was that UF places as well, and cheaper. FSU probably wouldn't, but it would probably place a bit better in the rest of the state. I have no idea, never looked at the numbers for the FL schools. If I was determined to live in Miami, I would probably go UF>Miami unless the U offered some decent $$.


Miami's price is what kills it for me. If you are paying out of state tuition at Florida though you are looking at close to the same money. I hear getting in state after the first year can be a pain in the ass at Florida too.


Agreed, if Miami was cheaper and you want to work there...probably the best choice. I'm not sure how strict the in-state requirement is in Florida anymore, but I never heard that it was as difficult as some of the other "problem" states like Texas/Virginia/etc.


Take a look at this about establishing residency for Florida:

This is not as easy as it sounds. If your parent or legal guardian is a resident and you are a dependent, and they have maintained residency for a year, you may qualify for residency. Otherwise, we have this information from Dean Jerry himself:

There are some additional requirements for a student to be classified as an in-state resident for tuition purposes. The key point is that simply living in or attending school in Florida does not, in and of itself, establish legal residence for tuition purposes.

Instead, residence in Florida must be a bona fide domicile, which is more than merely maintaining residence while attending the university. This determination is based on a variety of factors which are evaluated by the University of Florida Office of the Registrar after a student submits information to that office.

Factors that weigh in your favor are the following: having a driver’s license and a Florida license plate and registration for twelve months, owning property in Florida for a year, demonstrated commitment to community service, filing and paying taxes in Florida, and a clear desire to staying in Florida after completing the law degree. Gaining residency has been reported as difficult, though since four out of every five students are already Florida residents, there is little anecdotal evidence to go on.


http://www.top-law-schools.com/uf-college-of-law.html

If I was out of state (and I am) I would really have to think about whether I want to pay out of state for three years in the swamp or three years at the U and be looking at debt that near equal. As state budgets shrink and money for state schools dwindles I would expect more and more state schools will become the way Texas and Florida are.

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darknightbegins
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Re: Best Tier 2 Law Schools

Postby darknightbegins » Tue Mar 30, 2010 4:05 pm

Always Credited wrote:
Sky'stheLimit wrote:
darknightbegins wrote:
Always Credited wrote:Also, to add to the argument on the previous page....

UM is a shithole. Those uberawesomerichashell lawyers from UM that were mentioned? They probably graduated before it became a shithole.

Just sayin'. FSU and UF are both credited for Florida, though.


How is UM a shithole? Ever seen the campus or been to Coral Gabels? I'd take that over a fucking swamp.



UM's campus is dated, but it's still beautiful. UF and FSU have an old southern appeal to them, which is nice too, but I would hardly say that they're better.

And Tally is horrible! 1/4 mile off campus you're in the Ghetto.

Gainesville is a small town, but i love it. There's nothing there but UF.


When I said shithole, I wasn't referring to the campus. Look:

--LinkRemoved--

That's a link to the UM employment stats from 2008. A 39% response rate with 69% of those going into private practice. Average starting salary of those 39% responding was $87k and change. Look - that's an abysmal response rate for any school, especially a school you guys are considering as a Top TT law school.

It isn't as though all the big-earners of 2008 decided not to respond, and so that information is skewed to be too low. Just the opposite - that 39% was very likely the bulk of the top 50% of the class at UM, and STILL the employment data is sub-par to UF and FSU.

Did Miami do better than UF/FSU in Miami? Well I sure as hell hope so, cause it isn't going to win anywhere else. I simply feel UM is a law school that charges an outrageous amount of money for relatively poor career prospects, unless you do well and want to practice in Miami. But the same could be said at UF/FSU - do well, and Miami will certainly offer you a job...and you'd have less debt. Is a full ride to UM credited over UF/FSU if you ONLY want Miami? Sure. But that isn't substantial enough to make Miami a Top TT law school. The exact same could be said of any regional school.

Edit: Remember, 2008 was when things were GOOD for law. Nothing more recent has been released by UM. Now I'd wager that these employments stats, which are already dubious, would look disastrous.


Self report surveys are always BS to go on for something like this regardless of the school. I wouldn't make Miami a top TT law school, but that is mostly because of its price more than anything.

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toolshed
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Re: Best Tier 2 Law Schools

Postby toolshed » Tue Mar 30, 2010 4:11 pm

darknightbegins wrote:Take a look at this about establishing residency for Florida:

This is not as easy as it sounds. If your parent or legal guardian is a resident and you are a dependent, and they have maintained residency for a year, you may qualify for residency. Otherwise, we have this information from Dean Jerry himself:

There are some additional requirements for a student to be classified as an in-state resident for tuition purposes. The key point is that simply living in or attending school in Florida does not, in and of itself, establish legal residence for tuition purposes.

Instead, residence in Florida must be a bona fide domicile, which is more than merely maintaining residence while attending the university. This determination is based on a variety of factors which are evaluated by the University of Florida Office of the Registrar after a student submits information to that office.

Factors that weigh in your favor are the following: having a driver’s license and a Florida license plate and registration for twelve months, owning property in Florida for a year, demonstrated commitment to community service, filing and paying taxes in Florida, and a clear desire to staying in Florida after completing the law degree. Gaining residency has been reported as difficult, though since four out of every five students are already Florida residents, there is little anecdotal evidence to go on.


http://www.top-law-schools.com/uf-college-of-law.html

If I was out of state (and I am) I would really have to think about whether I want to pay out of state for three years in the swamp or three years at the U and be looking at debt that near equal. As state budgets shrink and money for state schools dwindles I would expect more and more state schools will become the way Texas and Florida are.


Yeah, it looks a little stringent. I have a friend at UF that came from Conn, she got in-state after a year (and her husband still livens in Conn even), but I can honestly say I don't know how difficult it may be. I would think getting a driver's license (required) and a car tag, maybe a few nice words about staying to the admin would suffice, but I certainly wouldn't count on anything.

Cestjustemoi
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Re: Best Tier 2 Law Schools

Postby Cestjustemoi » Wed Mar 31, 2010 9:25 am

keg411 wrote:
darknightbegins wrote:
Always Credited wrote:Also, to add to the argument on the previous page....

UM is a shithole. Those uberawesomerichashell lawyers from UM that were mentioned? They probably graduated before it became a shithole.

Just sayin'. FSU and UF are both credited for Florida, though.


How is UM a shithole? Ever seen the campus or been to Coral Gabels? I'd take that over a fucking swamp.


+ infinite.

The UF campus is one of the creepiest places I have ever been to. I visited there for undergrad and my first thought was: "I can see why Ted Bundy came here".


Are you sure you were in the right place UF has a gorgeous campus, very traditional

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darknightbegins
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Re: Best Tier 2 Law Schools

Postby darknightbegins » Wed Mar 31, 2010 1:14 pm

Cestjustemoi wrote:
keg411 wrote:
darknightbegins wrote:
Always Credited wrote:Also, to add to the argument on the previous page....

UM is a shithole. Those uberawesomerichashell lawyers from UM that were mentioned? They probably graduated before it became a shithole.

Just sayin'. FSU and UF are both credited for Florida, though.


How is UM a shithole? Ever seen the campus or been to Coral Gabels? I'd take that over a fucking swamp.


+ infinite.

The UF campus is one of the creepiest places I have ever been to. I visited there for undergrad and my first thought was: "I can see why Ted Bundy came here".


Are you sure you were in the right place UF has a gorgeous campus, very traditional


Not compared to Miami.

xeckosk8trx
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Re: Best Tier 2 Law Schools

Postby xeckosk8trx » Wed Mar 31, 2010 1:17 pm

Why is U of Florida a Tier 2 school anyways?

Joy_Deknarak
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Re: Best Tier 2 Law Schools

Postby Joy_Deknarak » Wed Mar 31, 2010 1:20 pm

How about Santa Clara? I heard that if you has big high tech law, and highly recognize in the Silicon Valley and Bay Area.

keg411
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Re: Best Tier 2 Law Schools

Postby keg411 » Wed Mar 31, 2010 1:23 pm

MJMD wrote:

+ infinite.

The UF campus is one of the creepiest places I have ever been to. I visited there for undergrad and my first thought was: "I can see why Ted Bundy came here".


Dude, Ted Bundy went to Florida State.


He didn't go to UF, that's just where he killed people. Hence the creeped out ness.
Creepy doesn't equal gross or anything. It was just a really big campus and it seemed hot and isolated.

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darknightbegins
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Re: Best Tier 2 Law Schools

Postby darknightbegins » Wed Mar 31, 2010 1:34 pm

xeckosk8trx wrote:Why is U of Florida a Tier 2 school anyways?


Because USNWR says so.

NYVA311
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Re: Best Tier 2 Law Schools

Postby NYVA311 » Wed Mar 31, 2010 1:42 pm

Richmond and Villanova.

Aside from the fact that Villanova is more expensive, I see it as comparable in job prospects/prestige to Temple in the greater Philadelphia area.

Richmond does very well in Richmond and various other parts of VA, so if you want to be around there you can't go wrong.

GatorBait09
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Re: Best Tier 2 Law Schools

Postby GatorBait09 » Wed Mar 31, 2010 2:22 pm

keg411 wrote:
MJMD wrote:

+ infinite.

The UF campus is one of the creepiest places I have ever been to. I visited there for undergrad and my first thought was: "I can see why Ted Bundy came here".


Dude, Ted Bundy went to Florida State.


He didn't go to UF, that's just where he killed people. Hence the creeped out ness.
Creepy doesn't equal gross or anything. It was just a really big campus and it seemed hot and isolated.


It can be creepy at night, some parts of campus still aren't that well-lit even after ~20 years since Bundy. They only recently (within the last 3 years) took down the apartment complex where everything happened. Riding past that place on the bus every morning and evening was kind of eerie, especially if you know what the place looked like.

Overall, though, I think UF has a very beautiful campus. It was even ranked as one of the most beautiful collegiate campuses in the country a few years ago according to a sign I saw on campus. So take that for what it's worth I guess.

As for ranking, UF is "officially" a T2, but gets the recognition of a T1. Which for all practical purposes is fine by me.

Cestjustemoi
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Re: Best Tier 2 Law Schools

Postby Cestjustemoi » Wed Mar 31, 2010 3:38 pm

keg411 wrote:
MJMD wrote:

+ infinite.

The UF campus is one of the creepiest places I have ever been to. I visited there for undergrad and my first thought was: "I can see why Ted Bundy came here".


Dude, Ted Bundy went to Florida State.


He didn't go to UF, that's just where he killed people. Hence the creeped out ness.
Creepy doesn't equal gross or anything. It was just a really big campus and it seemed hot and isolated.


yea the law school is really secluded on campus too. I can see your point.

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Snowdrifter
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Re: Best Tier 2 Law Schools

Postby Snowdrifter » Wed Mar 31, 2010 3:47 pm

I have heard that many UF 1L's end up transferring to FSU.

This is just anecdotal, and I don't have any stake in the UF v. FSU rivalry, so I was just curious what others have heard/seen/read. :)




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