Help me decide, T10, T15 or T30?????

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Please read my post before voting (totals are debt not scholly.)

Michigan - $115,000 of Debt
93
73%
Texas - $50,000 of Debt
14
11%
UGA - $0 of Debt
18
14%
Bama - $0 of Debt and stipend.
3
2%
 
Total votes: 128

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doinmybest
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Re: Help me decide, T10, T15 or T30?????

Postby doinmybest » Tue Mar 30, 2010 11:24 am

keg411 wrote:I get the feeling that OP wants to justify the Michigan debt. OP, if you really want Mich, go to Mich.

I went to ASW at Mich and I had a blast. I'll admit that I do want to justify the debt. I was able to bring the debt down from $150K to $115K. I was wondering if the drop changed anyone's opinion.


TipTravHoot wrote:Just thought I'd drop in to say congrats on a great cycle.


Thanks TipTravHoot, we certainly have come a long way since studying for LSAT in the LSAT prep forum. I hope you had a great cycle as well. IIRC you were considering Ohio State. Have you 100% decided on OSU?


FlightoftheEarls wrote:
rando wrote:If all you are looking for is prestige then go to Michigan and figure out how to pay off your debt later. If you want to be comfortable and have a lot of options with the opportunity to practice in a great Atlanta firm then go to UGA.

So what about all of the other graduates from UGA? Emory? All of those classes of law students that want prestigious firm work in Atlanta? You'd better do pretty damn well to distinguish yourself from all of these individuals competing for jobs in this market if you go to UGA. Oh, and don't forget that you have T14 grads from around the country aiming for secondary markets and having great success if they can demonstrate ties to the area. You'll be competing against them too. But it's cool - if you go to UGA you'll have lots of options and the opportunity to practice in a great Atlanta firm, just like that. At Michigan? Unemployment FTL. Obvsies.


FlightoftheEarls makes a good point that addresses some of my main concerns. I'm worried about limiting myelf ITE, and I think being lower on the food chain than some of the other schools you are competing with, may end up hurting me no matter what type of law I want.

keg411
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Re: Help me decide, T10, T15 or T30?????

Postby keg411 » Tue Mar 30, 2010 1:15 pm

I went to ASW at Mich and I had a blast. I'll admit that I do want to justify the debt. I was able to bring the debt down from $150K to $115K. I was wondering if the drop changed anyone's opinion.


I was right :). TBF, I don't think it makes that much of a difference. The difference is clearly you want Mich and you feel more comfortable now that it is 35k cheaper. Go to Mich and "let it ride".

(Also, if you do that there is a 99% chance that you do NYC/Chicago/DC BigLaw in the end even if you don't want it now ;))

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beesknees
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Re: Help me decide, T10, T15 or T30?????

Postby beesknees » Tue Mar 30, 2010 1:23 pm

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Last edited by beesknees on Sat Dec 04, 2010 6:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

09042014
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Re: Help me decide, T10, T15 or T30?????

Postby 09042014 » Tue Mar 30, 2010 1:27 pm

115K is nothing over a career. Go to Michigan.

Action Jackson
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Re: Help me decide, T10, T15 or T30?????

Postby Action Jackson » Tue Mar 30, 2010 1:32 pm

I voted UGA.

What if you don't get Biglaw? Lots of people aren't ITE. That debt is painful. Go to UGA, for free, and no matter what happens in school you'll be okay, because you won't have debt on your back. Rock law school and get to the top of your class? Biglaw. Get median grades or whatever? Get the job you want. Or go get a different degree. Without debt, you're free.

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Re: Help me decide, T10, T15 or T30?????

Postby Action Jackson » Tue Mar 30, 2010 1:32 pm

Desert Fox wrote:115K is nothing over a career. Go to Michigan.

What if OP doesn't get Biglaw?

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Re: Help me decide, T10, T15 or T30?????

Postby rando » Tue Mar 30, 2010 1:57 pm

FlightoftheEarls wrote:
rando wrote:If all you are looking for is prestige then go to Michigan and figure out how to pay off your debt later. If you want to be comfortable and have a lot of options with the opportunity to practice in a great Atlanta firm then go to UGA.

So what about all of the other graduates from UGA? Emory? All of those classes of law students that want prestigious firm work in Atlanta? You'd better do pretty damn well to distinguish yourself from all of these individuals competing for jobs in this market if you go to UGA. Oh, and don't forget that you have T14 grads from around the country aiming for secondary markets and having great success if they can demonstrate ties to the area. You'll be competing against them too. But it's cool - if you go to UGA you'll have lots of options and the opportunity to practice in a great Atlanta firm, just like that. At Michigan? Unemployment FTL. Obvsies.


FlightoftheEarls makes a good point that addresses some of my main concerns. I'm worried about limiting myelf ITE, and I think being lower on the food chain than some of the other schools you are competing with, may end up hurting me no matter what type of law I want.[/quote]

You will have the opportunity. Try not to be too negative. Yes, you will have to do better at UGA than Emory or Michigan to get those jobs. That being said, a look at one of Atlanta's best firms' upcoming SA class

1xCOL
2xUVA
3xEmory
2xUGA
1xNChapelHill
1xHarvard
2xDuke

Flight of Earls overemphasizes a Michigan student's (or any T14 student's) ability to just say "bitch I'm from Michigan, hire me"

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beesknees
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Re: Help me decide, T10, T15 or T30?????

Postby beesknees » Tue Mar 30, 2010 5:14 pm

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Last edited by beesknees on Sat Dec 04, 2010 6:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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doinmybest
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Re: Help me decide, T10, T15 or T30?????

Postby doinmybest » Tue Mar 30, 2010 5:26 pm

beesknees wrote:
doinmybest wrote:I was wondering if the drop changed anyone's opinion.


I'm trying to negotiate now with Michigan. If they gave me so much as a dime, I'd go just because I've almost convinced myself that Michigan at sticker would be worth it, so any figure below that and I'd be convinced.

BTW, did you leverage your UGA offer or did you get need-based aid from Mich?


PM me. I'd be happy to give you some negotiation advice. The financial aid people at Michigan are highly receptive to honesty and politeness.

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Re: Help me decide, T10, T15 or T30?????

Postby Action Jackson » Tue Mar 30, 2010 5:27 pm

beesknees wrote:One thing people seem to be overlooking is Michigan's awesome LRAP. Its DOES NOT stipulate PI. So, in other words, if you crap out at Michigan and don't want to/can't find a PI job, you're not totally effed as long as you can find some form of legal employment. The only thing you have to do to qualify for their LRAP is to be working in a job that requires a JD (except clerkships) and when I visited, I learned that apparently "legal employment" is broadly defined because one the alums that spoke at the financial aid panel said she was under Michigan's LRAP and she worked for the admissions office.

If that LRAP wasn't there, I probably wouldn't even be considering such large debt. But I really was impressed when I learned more about their LRAP. Seems like they truly want to support their students in pursuing whatever legal career that they may want, even if its small firm. So if you go to Michigan, you don't have to get biglaw or PI if you don't want/can't get it. You just have to have some law-related job.

So, vastly better employment prospects + solid LRAP FTW.

That sounds like a pretty great deal. Does the LRAP pay off the balance of the loan or just a part of it? If it's the full balance, then I would change my answer to Michigan. If not, then you need to figure out what it pays for.

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beesknees
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Re: Help me decide, T10, T15 or T30?????

Postby beesknees » Tue Mar 30, 2010 5:36 pm

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Last edited by beesknees on Sat Dec 04, 2010 6:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Action Jackson
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Re: Help me decide, T10, T15 or T30?????

Postby Action Jackson » Tue Mar 30, 2010 5:48 pm

beesknees wrote:Check it out on their website for details. But the long and short of their program:

No formal income cap.
If you make $36k and under, they pay ALL of your debt payments on a 10 year repayment schedule.
If you make over $36k, then they do a formula: income - existing undergrad debt - $36k. Of that difference, your expected contribution is 35% of that difference.

Example: You make $60k and have $10k in existing UG debt: 60-10-36 = $14k. Your yearly expected contribution, would then be $14k x .35 = $4,900. Divide that by 12, your monthly loan payment is $408 of whatever amount you owe and they foot the rest.

They disburse a check to you for 6 or 12 months of their portion of the debt payment, which you put toward your payments. After the 6 or 12 months they forgive that loan and disburse another round as long as you stay in the program.

Obviously, there gets to be a point in your income that your expected contribution would be more than the minimum debt payment, in which case you're "priced out" of the program. The financial aid counselor said that income is around $80k for most people.

What's nice is that they are forgiving your debt as you go, unlike IBR, so your debt is in fact getting paid down (again, unlike IBR) and its a 10 year repayment schedule and not some absurd amount of time, like IBR non-PI forgiveness is 25 years.

And then, if you begin to make money farther down the road, you just exit the program, but all of your previous payments have been reducing your debt (unlike IBR).

That sucks.

Take the free ride at UGA. Every dollar you earn when you graduate you get to keep (excluding taxes, of course). $408 a month on a $60k salary is A LOT of money. Sure, not the $1500 or so you'll probably owe without the LRAP, but a lot more than the ZERO you would pay out of UGA.

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beesknees
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Re: Help me decide, T10, T15 or T30?????

Postby beesknees » Tue Mar 30, 2010 5:52 pm

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Last edited by beesknees on Sat Dec 04, 2010 6:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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FlightoftheEarls
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Re: Help me decide, T10, T15 or T30?????

Postby FlightoftheEarls » Tue Mar 30, 2010 8:47 pm

beesknees wrote:
Action Jackson wrote:That sucks.

Take the free ride at UGA. Every dollar you earn when you graduate you get to keep (excluding taxes, of course). $408 a month on a $60k salary is A LOT of money. Sure, not the $1500 or so you'll probably owe without the LRAP, but a lot more than the ZERO you would pay out of UGA.


Lol, I guess if you don't want any debt. It certainly makes debt managable and is payable in 10 years. Just saying to those people who are saying to not go to Michigan because OMG, what if you can't get biglaw. Its a nice safety net that is there.

Also, btw, OP, how can you not have debt from UGA? You have parents or savings to foot the COL bill? Just saying, UGA will still cost you something otherwise. In which case, owing $40k for COL and making peanuts in a small firm can still suck. Just something to consider when thinking of UGA.

I'm guessing so, since OP probably would have looked into that. Cost of attendance at UGA per year is $15,320. For three years, that comes out to $45,960. On 6.8% interest at ten years, that's a loan payment of $528.91 per month. Compare that to the $408 at Michigan on a $60k salary, the likelihood of getting that job at Michigan vs. UGA, the ability to clerk at Michigan vs. UGA and the opportunities for entrance to academia at Michigan vs. UGA, it would pretty much have to be covered by some other source for anybody to be making an argument for UGA at this point.

rando wrote:You will have the opportunity. Try not to be too negative. Yes, you will have to do better at UGA than Emory or Michigan to get those jobs. That being said, a look at one of Atlanta's best firms' upcoming SA class

1xCOL
2xUVA
3xEmory
2xUGA
1xNChapelHill
1xHarvard
2xDuke

Flight of Earls overemphasizes a Michigan student's (or any T14 student's) ability to just say "bitch I'm from Michigan, hire me"

I get what you're trying to say, but I think you've made my argument quite nicely for me. You have six T14 grads mixed among five UGA/Emory grads, plus one outsider in UNC. How many T14 grads are there typically aiming for Atlanta, compared to Emory/UGA/GSU/JMLS/Mercer? The fact that they've now taken half the SA class at this firm when none of them traditionally place much into Atlanta should be a serious concern.

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PDaddy
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Re: Help me decide, T10, T15 or T30?????

Postby PDaddy » Tue Mar 30, 2010 8:54 pm

Would it be possible to negotiate with Michigan? Texas is a good enough school to pose a real threat of Michigan losing you. On the flip, the "Texas Matching Program" might get you more aid if you can get into a "peer school".

http://www.utexas.edu/law/depts/finaid/ ... match.html

Alexandria
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Re: Help me decide, T10, T15 or T30?????

Postby Alexandria » Tue Mar 30, 2010 9:11 pm

I'm a 3L at Michigan who is from Georgia (UGA undergrad) and interviewed in Atlanta for OCI. Just giving you my own experience... I had a very easy time getting offers (and 100% callback rate at OCI for that market). I do have good grades, so I'm not saying bottom 25% at Michigan beats top 10% at UGA or anything like that. But at the same time, I felt like I had a huge advantage over people from UGA/Emory/Vanderbilt. I even felt like I possibly had an advantage over Virginia/Duke people, simply because I was rarer... interested in Georgia and FROM Georgia and yet going to Michigan. Just like anywhere else, big firms like to have representation from the various top schools.

I don't have first-hand experience of what the job market is like for UGA Law students right now, but I just can't imagine that you need to be anything but very top of the class for the big law firms or clerking. The demands on you from Michigan aren't nearly as high (though admittedly the market now isn't the same as it was for OCI 2008).

Come to Michigan.

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doinmybest
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Re: Help me decide, T10, T15 or T30?????

Postby doinmybest » Wed Mar 31, 2010 6:43 am

beesknees wrote:Also, btw, OP, how can you not have debt from UGA? You have parents or savings to foot the COL bill? Just saying, UGA will still cost you something otherwise. In which case, owing $40k for COL and making peanuts in a small firm can still suck. Just something to consider when thinking of UGA.


I've been out of school and working for a bit. Over my life, I have saved nearly the full amount of COL. As long as I don't go somewhere like NYC, I should have COL covered for every year.

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doinmybest
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Re: Help me decide, T10, T15 or T30?????

Postby doinmybest » Wed Mar 31, 2010 6:51 am

PDaddy wrote:Would it be possible to negotiate with Michigan? Texas is a good enough school to pose a real threat of Michigan losing you. On the flip, the "Texas Matching Program" might get you more aid if you can get into a "peer school".

http://www.utexas.edu/law/depts/finaid/ ... match.html



This thread is post-negotiations.

Alexandria wrote:I'm a 3L at Michigan who is from Georgia (UGA undergrad) and interviewed in Atlanta for OCI. Just giving you my own experience... I had a very easy time getting offers (and 100% callback rate at OCI for that market). I do have good grades, so I'm not saying bottom 25% at Michigan beats top 10% at UGA or anything like that. But at the same time, I felt like I had a huge advantage over people from UGA/Emory/Vanderbilt. I even felt like I possibly had an advantage over Virginia/Duke people, simply because I was rarer... interested in Georgia and FROM Georgia and yet going to Michigan. Just like anywhere else, big firms like to have representation from the various top schools.

I don't have first-hand experience of what the job market is like for UGA Law students right now, but I just can't imagine that you need to be anything but very top of the class for the big law firms or clerking. The demands on you from Michigan aren't nearly as high (though admittedly the market now isn't the same as it was for OCI 2008).

Come to Michigan.


FlightofthEarls and Alexandria are echoing statements that I keep hearing about Michigan, everyone seems to believe Michigan is a safer bet for what I want to do (they are the clear winner in the poll). I spoke to a UGA 3L that is friends with some of my co-workers with and he swore to me that 75-80% of the 3L class is currently unemployed. I spoke to a UGA grad thats a 1L at Michigan and he claimed he was below the median, but was still able to find a paying job in Atlanta for this summer. I realize these are isolated cases and potentially here-say, but they are still illuminating nonetheless.

Anyone have recent employment #s from either school? Anecdotes are welcome.

rando
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Re: Help me decide, T10, T15 or T30?????

Postby rando » Wed Mar 31, 2010 7:25 am

FlightoftheEarls wrote:
rando wrote:You will have the opportunity. Try not to be too negative. Yes, you will have to do better at UGA than Emory or Michigan to get those jobs. That being said, a look at one of Atlanta's best firms' upcoming SA class

1xCOL
2xUVA
3xEmory
2xUGA
1xNChapelHill
1xHarvard
2xDuke

Flight of Earls overemphasizes a Michigan student's (or any T14 student's) ability to just say "bitch I'm from Michigan, hire me"

I get what you're trying to say, but I think you've made my argument quite nicely for me. You have six T14 grads mixed among five UGA/Emory grads, plus one outsider in UNC. How many T14 grads are there typically aiming for Atlanta, compared to Emory/UGA/GSU/JMLS/Mercer? The fact that they've now taken half the SA class at this firm when none of them traditionally place much into Atlanta should be a serious concern.


But what is your argument? Mine is simply that, yes, you will have to do better at UGA, but you will have the opportunity to work at a great atlanta firm. I don't think the fact that firms dig deeper at Mich or any other T14 has ever been in dispute. But when you have no debt, you have more options on graduation and if you want to practice in Ga. then UGA will give you a good opportunity to do that.
If you can get to the same place through UGA, would you rather do it with no debt or $115k. Not saying your odds are better at UGA and that is something to consider. Whether you are willing to take that gamble for $115k.

I'm not even telling you to go to UGA. But there is a solid line of reasoning behind doing it.
I think a few of you are so closed in on your own arguments for doing one or the other that you're not actually seeing that there is a plausible alternative. The above list goes to show that although you are competing against T14's, there are jobs to be had for local students.

Edit: I even voted for Mich. in the poll. Because that is where I think the best odds for employment are. But I don't think the decision is as clear cut as people are making it out to be.

rando
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Re: Help me decide, T10, T15 or T30?????

Postby rando » Wed Mar 31, 2010 7:32 am

doinmybest wrote:
Alexandria wrote:I'm a 3L at Michigan who is from Georgia (UGA undergrad) and interviewed in Atlanta for OCI. Just giving you my own experience... I had a very easy time getting offers (and 100% callback rate at OCI for that market). I do have good grades, so I'm not saying bottom 25% at Michigan beats top 10% at UGA or anything like that. But at the same time, I felt like I had a huge advantage over people from UGA/Emory/Vanderbilt. I even felt like I possibly had an advantage over Virginia/Duke people, simply because I was rarer... interested in Georgia and FROM Georgia and yet going to Michigan. Just like anywhere else, big firms like to have representation from the various top schools.

I don't have first-hand experience of what the job market is like for UGA Law students right now, but I just can't imagine that you need to be anything but very top of the class for the big law firms or clerking. The demands on you from Michigan aren't nearly as high (though admittedly the market now isn't the same as it was for OCI 2008).

Come to Michigan.


FlightofthEarls and Alexandria are echoing statements that I keep hearing about Michigan, everyone seems to believe Michigan is a safer bet for what I want to do (they are the clear winner in the poll). I spoke to a UGA 3L that is friends with some of my co-workers with and he swore to me that 75-80% of the 3L class is currently unemployed. I spoke to a UGA grad thats a 1L at Michigan and he claimed he was below the median, but was still able to find a paying job in Atlanta for this summer. I realize these are isolated cases and potentially here-say, but they are still illuminating nonetheless.

Anyone have recent employment #s from either school? Anecdotes are welcome.


I would guess 30% at firms at Emory. Maybe at bit more... It is really hard to tell. I know several people at UGA, numbers seem to be lower. Not drastically, but lower. 20%? As silly as it is to make ballpark guesses like this, well, you asked for anecdotes. Either way it will give you a clear indication of the difference between UGA & Mich.

keg411
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Re: Help me decide, T10, T15 or T30?????

Postby keg411 » Wed Mar 31, 2010 8:35 am

Edit: I even voted for Mich. in the poll. Because that is where I think the best odds for employment are. But I don't think the decision is as clear cut as people are making it out to be.


It isn't. But OP wants to go to Michigan, so OP should go to Michigan.

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doinmybest
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Re: Help me decide, T10, T15 or T30?????

Postby doinmybest » Thu Apr 01, 2010 7:39 am

Its April 1st and I have decided.

Image

effffing Hogwarts!!!!

rando
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Re: Help me decide, T10, T15 or T30?????

Postby rando » Thu Apr 01, 2010 7:43 am

congrats!!!

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doinmybest
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Re: Help me decide, T10, T15 or T30?????

Postby doinmybest » Thu Apr 01, 2010 7:49 am

rando wrote:congrats!!!


Rando:

Thanks for all your help! Having helpful people like you on here is what makes TLS such a great resource.

rando
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Re: Help me decide, T10, T15 or T30?????

Postby rando » Thu Apr 01, 2010 8:25 am

doinmybest wrote:
rando wrote:congrats!!!


Rando:

Thanks for all your help! Having helpful people like you on here is what makes lishi such a great resource.


No worries. good luck.




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