Rank T-14 In order you would attend

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thickfreakness
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Re: Rank T-14 In order you would attend

Postby thickfreakness » Mon Mar 15, 2010 8:23 pm

Based on living preferences, etc.:

Duke/UVA
Stanford
Harvard
Yale
Penn
Berkeley


Never:
NYU
Columbia
Chicago
Northwestern
Cornell
Georgetown
Michigan

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im_blue
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Re: Rank T-14 In order you would attend

Postby im_blue » Mon Mar 15, 2010 8:49 pm

Havaianas wrote:Its crazy for me to see boalt so low on peoples lists!

Stanford
Harvard
Berkeley
Yale
NYU/Columbia
Duke/Georgetown (making this decision in real life)
U Mich
U Penn
Northwestern


not in this life:
1) Virginia
2) U Chicago
3) Cornell

I'm surprised to see Chicago, a top 5 law school, not even on your list. To each his own, I guess. :wink:

APimpNamedSlickback
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Re: Rank T-14 In order you would attend

Postby APimpNamedSlickback » Mon Mar 15, 2010 8:49 pm

im_blue wrote:
Havaianas wrote:Its crazy for me to see boalt so low on peoples lists!

Stanford
Harvard
Berkeley
Yale
NYU/Columbia
Duke/Georgetown (making this decision in real life)
U Mich
U Penn
Northwestern


not in this life:
1) Virginia
2) U Chicago
3) Cornell

I'm surprised to see Chicago, a top 5 law school, not even on your list. To each his own, I guess. :wink:


top 5?

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im_blue
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Re: Rank T-14 In order you would attend

Postby im_blue » Mon Mar 15, 2010 8:53 pm

APimpNamedSlickback wrote:
im_blue wrote:
Havaianas wrote:Its crazy for me to see boalt so low on peoples lists!

Stanford
Harvard
Berkeley
Yale
NYU/Columbia
Duke/Georgetown (making this decision in real life)
U Mich
U Penn
Northwestern


not in this life:
1) Virginia
2) U Chicago
3) Cornell

I'm surprised to see Chicago, a top 5 law school, not even on your list. To each his own, I guess. :wink:


top 5?

yes

APimpNamedSlickback
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Re: Rank T-14 In order you would attend

Postby APimpNamedSlickback » Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:02 pm

according to which metric? YHSCN is the generally accepted top 5 i think.

Lupton Pittman
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Re: Rank T-14 In order you would attend

Postby Lupton Pittman » Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:27 pm

Yale
Harvard
Stanford
Columbia
Virginia
NYU
Chicago
NU
Penn
Michigan
Cornell
Duke
Georgetown
Berkeley

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AngryAvocado
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Re: Rank T-14 In order you would attend

Postby AngryAvocado » Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:35 pm

APimpNamedSlickback wrote:according to which metric? YHSCN is the generally accepted top 5 i think.


Virtually any metric outside of USNWR. Raw placement, V50 placement, V100 placement, academia, top clerkships, etc. etc.

APimpNamedSlickback
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Re: Rank T-14 In order you would attend

Postby APimpNamedSlickback » Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:38 pm

AngryAvocado wrote:
APimpNamedSlickback wrote:according to which metric? YHSCN is the generally accepted top 5 i think.


Virtually any metric outside of USNWR. Raw placement, V50 placement, V100 placement, academia, top clerkships, etc. etc.


doesnt usnews purport to capture all of the important stuff?

i personally would take chicago over nyu, but that is mostly because i am an economics nerd and a glutton for punishment. however, i think nyu's recent faculty hires, combined with the losses that chicago has had in recent years, have probably helped to solidify nyu's place in the t5.

chicago is still awesome though.

legalnoeagle
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Re: Rank T-14 In order you would attend

Postby legalnoeagle » Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:45 pm

AngryAvocado wrote:
APimpNamedSlickback wrote:according to which metric? YHSCN is the generally accepted top 5 i think.


Virtually any metric outside of USNWR. Raw placement, V50 placement, V100 placement, academia, top clerkships, etc. etc.



I've seen the NLJ250 and clerkship rankings, but I've never seen any V50 or V100 placement data. Where can I find this?

And from where do you derive your 'academia' metric?

No flame (I'm fully aware of the hard-on TLS has for UChicago)... I'm actually curious.

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NDPhil
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Re: Rank T-14 In order you would attend

Postby NDPhil » Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:45 pm

Chicago
Yale
Stanford
Harvard
Penn
Michigan
Cal Berkeley
NYU
UVA
Columbia
Duke
Northwestern
Georgetown
Cornell

My list additionally factors in cost of living and particular faculty members with whom I would like to work.

APimpNamedSlickback
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Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 1:33 am

Re: Rank T-14 In order you would attend

Postby APimpNamedSlickback » Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:46 pm

NDPhil wrote:Chicago
Yale
Stanford
Harvard
Penn
Michigan
Cal Berkeley
NYU
UVA
Columbia
Duke
Northwestern
Georgetown
Cornell

My list additionally factors in cost of living and particular faculty members with whom I would like to work.



...speaking of hardons for chicago lol

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AngryAvocado
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Re: Rank T-14 In order you would attend

Postby AngryAvocado » Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:49 pm

APimpNamedSlickback wrote:
AngryAvocado wrote:
APimpNamedSlickback wrote:according to which metric? YHSCN is the generally accepted top 5 i think.


Virtually any metric outside of USNWR. Raw placement, V50 placement, V100 placement, academia, top clerkships, etc. etc.


doesnt usnews purport to capture all of the important stuff?

i personally would take chicago over nyu, but that is mostly because i am an economics nerd and a glutton for punishment. however, i think nyu's recent faculty hires, combined with the losses that chicago has had in recent years, have probably helped to solidify nyu's place in the t5.

chicago is still awesome though.


Huh? USNWR does nothing of the sort. They only measure employment and bar passage rates.

Aside from that, Chicago beats out NYU in virtually every placement category (and the difference gets larger the more "prestigious" you get). It's lawyer/judge reputation score is equal to Columbia, and both are above NYU. Really, the only place NYU beats Chicago is USNWR and (arguably) prestigious PI. A few faculty hires aren't going to change that.

sumus romani
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Joined: Fri Jan 15, 2010 6:04 pm

Re: Rank T-14 In order you would attend

Postby sumus romani » Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:52 pm

Y
S
H
CCN
M
VB
PD
NCG

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kinch
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Re: Rank T-14 In order you would attend

Postby kinch » Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:54 pm

Stanford
Yale
Harvard
NYU
Columbia
Berkeley
Chicago
Virginia
Penn
Northwestern
Duke
Michigan
Georgetown
Cornell

User avatar
AngryAvocado
Posts: 776
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2009 11:22 pm

Re: Rank T-14 In order you would attend

Postby AngryAvocado » Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:54 pm

legalnoeagle wrote:
AngryAvocado wrote:
APimpNamedSlickback wrote:according to which metric? YHSCN is the generally accepted top 5 i think.


Virtually any metric outside of USNWR. Raw placement, V50 placement, V100 placement, academia, top clerkships, etc. etc.



I've seen the NLJ250 and clerkship rankings, but I've never seen any V50 or V100 placement data. Where can I find this?

And from where do you derive your 'academia' metric?

No flame (I'm fully aware of the hard-on TLS has for UChicago)... I'm actually curious.



SCOTUS clerkships from '00-'08: http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2000 ... erks.shtml

V100 (from '06): http://lawfirmaddict.blogspot.com/2006/ ... ement.html

Elite firm hiring: http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2008job_biglaw.shtml

Academia: http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2009 ... hing.shtml

I know I'm biased, but the difference is pretty huge. USNWR is really the only place where NYU is above Chicago.

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Rand M.
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Re: Rank T-14 In order you would attend

Postby Rand M. » Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:58 pm

AngryAvocado wrote:
APimpNamedSlickback wrote:
AngryAvocado wrote:
APimpNamedSlickback wrote:according to which metric? YHSCN is the generally accepted top 5 i think.


Virtually any metric outside of USNWR. Raw placement, V50 placement, V100 placement, academia, top clerkships, etc. etc.


doesnt usnews purport to capture all of the important stuff?

i personally would take chicago over nyu, but that is mostly because i am an economics nerd and a glutton for punishment. however, i think nyu's recent faculty hires, combined with the losses that chicago has had in recent years, have probably helped to solidify nyu's place in the t5.

chicago is still awesome though.


Huh? USNWR does nothing of the sort. They only measure employment and bar passage rates.

Aside from that, Chicago beats out NYU in virtually every placement category (and the difference gets larger the more "prestigious" you get). It's lawyer/judge reputation score is equal to Columbia, and both are above NYU. Really, the only place NYU beats Chicago is USNWR and (arguably) prestigious PI. A few faculty hires aren't going to change that.


Well, the place that NYU moves ahead of Chicago is the expenditure portion. I saw a really amazing breakdown of the ranking for each and every school a while back (no way I would ever find that now). If you look at the historical rankings you can see that Chicago used to be 2-3. Then USNWR changed the way they calculated expenditures and now its 6. It's really something how arbitrary changes in an arbitrary formula can lead to arbitrary results that will make people make conclusions that they don't think are arbitrary. In sum, Chicago is T5.

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chadwick218
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Re: Rank T-14 In order you would attend

Postby chadwick218 » Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:58 pm

Yale
Harvard
Stanford
Chicago
Columbia
NYU
Penn
Michigan
Northwestern
Virginia
Berkeley
Duke
Cornell
Georgetown

Illijah
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Re: Rank T-14 In order you would attend

Postby Illijah » Mon Mar 15, 2010 10:01 pm

isn't NYU second to only Harvard in top private law firm placements?


that should count for something

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Rand M.
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Re: Rank T-14 In order you would attend

Postby Rand M. » Mon Mar 15, 2010 10:02 pm

http://money-law.blogspot.com/2008/08/z-scores-in-model-of-2009-usn-law.html

I actually managed to find what I was referring to earlier. This is the most detailed breakdown I have seen and shows you where USNWR find differences between these schools. Oddly enough, I don't think that some of the things that shift the rankings are things that a deciding student would actually care about.

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Rand M.
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Re: Rank T-14 In order you would attend

Postby Rand M. » Mon Mar 15, 2010 10:05 pm

Illijah wrote:isn't NYU second to only Harvard in top private law firm placements?


that should count for something


No.

http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2008job_biglaw.shtml

But past that, if the desired market is not New York, the difference between the schools swells. C>N in neutral markets like D.C., Atlanta, the West Coast, etc.

legalnoeagle
Posts: 297
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2009 3:23 pm

Re: Rank T-14 In order you would attend

Postby legalnoeagle » Mon Mar 15, 2010 10:13 pm

Rand M. wrote:
Illijah wrote:isn't NYU second to only Harvard in top private law firm placements?


that should count for something


No.

http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2008job_biglaw.shtml

But past that, if the desired market is not New York, the difference between the schools swells. C>N in neutral markets like D.C., Atlanta, the West Coast, etc.


Probably due to self-selection, no? Conventional wisdom says that if you want NYC Biglaw, you go to NYU or CLS (Harvard doesn't even count in this debate). If there were more than, say, two Chicago-based law firms ranked in the V25, then Chicago probably wouldn't share this advantage.

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straxen
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Re: Rank T-14 In order you would attend

Postby straxen » Mon Mar 15, 2010 10:17 pm

Yale
Harvard=Stanford
NYU
Berkeley=Columbia
Chicago
Penn
Michigan=UVa
Duke
GULC
Cornell (=UCLA)
Northwestern

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AngryAvocado
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Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2009 11:22 pm

Re: Rank T-14 In order you would attend

Postby AngryAvocado » Mon Mar 15, 2010 10:20 pm

legalnoeagle wrote:
Rand M. wrote:
Illijah wrote:isn't NYU second to only Harvard in top private law firm placements?


that should count for something


No.

http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2008job_biglaw.shtml

But past that, if the desired market is not New York, the difference between the schools swells. C>N in neutral markets like D.C., Atlanta, the West Coast, etc.


Probably due to self-selection, no? Conventional wisdom says that if you want NYC Biglaw, you go to NYU or CLS (Harvard doesn't even count in this debate). If there were more than, say, two Chicago-based law firms ranked in the V25, then Chicago probably wouldn't share this advantage.


Check out the link that was just posted twice. NY firms dominate the elite firm list, and Chicago still wins. If that's not enough, here's a list of V50 placement from '07 (which is also biased toward NYC), and Chicago still beats out NYU handedly. http://lawfirmaddict.blogspot.com/2007/ ... ement.html

Chicago does get a lot of love on TLS compared to NYU, but there's reason for that (beyond just general disdain for hipsters :wink: ).

Illijah
Posts: 317
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Re: Rank T-14 In order you would attend

Postby Illijah » Mon Mar 15, 2010 10:30 pm

Rand M. wrote:
Illijah wrote:isn't NYU second to only Harvard in top private law firm placements?


that should count for something


No.

http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2008job_biglaw.shtml

But past that, if the desired market is not New York, the difference between the schools swells. C>N in neutral markets like D.C., Atlanta, the West Coast, etc.


kind of misleading no? even though the percentage is higher for Chicago they have around 1/2 the number of alumni at elite firms. I would imagine that would make their alumni connection to elite firms weaker...

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AngryAvocado
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Re: Rank T-14 In order you would attend

Postby AngryAvocado » Mon Mar 15, 2010 10:38 pm

Illijah wrote:
Rand M. wrote:
Illijah wrote:isn't NYU second to only Harvard in top private law firm placements?


that should count for something


No.

http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2008job_biglaw.shtml

But past that, if the desired market is not New York, the difference between the schools swells. C>N in neutral markets like D.C., Atlanta, the West Coast, etc.


kind of misleading no? even though the percentage is higher for Chicago they have around 1/2 the number of alumni at elite firms. I would imagine that would make their alumni connection to elite firms weaker...



The networking thing is probably the one edge NYU has over Chicago for NYC firms, but that's sort of a double-edged sword. There are also a lot more NYU kids gunning for those jobs than Chicago kids, and that gives Chicago an advantage with firms who want to diversify their recruitment.




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