Cornell w/120K versus Columbia at sticker

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Which school?

Cornell with $120K
186
65%
Columbia at sticker
102
35%
 
Total votes: 288

User avatar
Bronte
Posts: 2128
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 10:44 pm

Re: Cornell w/120K versus Columbia at sticker

Postby Bronte » Sat Mar 13, 2010 1:00 am

Jules Winnfield wrote:And for all of the people directing malicious comments at me in this thread, it deserves to be mentioned that you guys are definitely in the minority, according to the poll.

If anything, you guys are the ones who are being dumb in advising OP to take on 6-figure debt in lieu of attending a T14 for free.


Because one directs "malicious comments" at you does not mean one disagrees with all of your conclusions. FWIW, I vote for Cornell because I believe the scholarship outweighs the benefits offered by a Columbia degree. However, I strongly disagree with your continued assertions that the decision is a non-issue. In fact, I think your posts to that effect have strongly detracted from this thread. OP would not be insane to take either choice.

Z3RO
Posts: 526
Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 11:57 am

Re: Cornell w/120K versus Columbia at sticker

Postby Z3RO » Sat Mar 13, 2010 1:07 am

.
Last edited by Z3RO on Sat Mar 13, 2010 9:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

johndh
Posts: 97
Joined: Sun Nov 08, 2009 7:20 pm

Re: Cornell w/120K versus Columbia at sticker

Postby johndh » Sat Mar 13, 2010 8:25 am

Dignan wrote:
johndh wrote:I keep seeing arguments talking about Cornell's placement at the medians but is it too unrealistic to assume that with such a large scholarship the OP could potentially finish around the top of the class where employment opportunities are far different? (I hope so, I just received the same scholarship, although without the CLS acceptance, and I am seriously considering accepting it.)

The conventional wisdom is that it's a mistake to assume you will finish near the top of your class. There is, the argument runs, a fair amount of randomness and luck in law school grading. And, as you and I both know, we're just a blown logic game away from having numbers that look like the typical Cornell Law student. We're not that special.


Sorry if that came across as incredibly arrogant but my point is that assuming the same talent and effort at both schools, your relative class ranking could be very different.

User avatar
Drew2010
Posts: 418
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2008 2:21 pm

Re: Cornell w/120K versus Columbia at sticker

Postby Drew2010 » Sat Mar 13, 2010 10:31 am

Edit: NM, didn't see there were so many more posts between the "wait till you compete with me at CLS argument."

User avatar
Jules Winnfield
Posts: 214
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2010 4:32 pm

Re: Cornell w/120K versus Columbia at sticker

Postby Jules Winnfield » Sat Mar 13, 2010 12:44 pm

.
Last edited by Jules Winnfield on Sat Mar 27, 2010 4:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
of Benito Cereno
Posts: 748
Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2009 6:40 am

Re: Cornell w/120K versus Columbia at sticker

Postby of Benito Cereno » Sat Mar 13, 2010 12:47 pm

Jules Winnfield wrote:
Bronte wrote:
Jules Winnfield wrote:And for all of the people directing malicious comments at me in this thread, it deserves to be mentioned that you guys are definitely in the minority, according to the poll.

If anything, you guys are the ones who are being dumb in advising OP to take on 6-figure debt in lieu of attending a T14 for free.


Because one directs "malicious comments" at you does not mean one disagrees with all of your conclusions. FWIW, I vote for Cornell because I believe the scholarship outweighs the benefits offered by a Columbia degree. However, I strongly disagree with your continued assertions that the decision is a non-issue. In fact, I think your posts to that effect have strongly detracted from this thread. OP would not be insane to take either choice.



You're being a hypocrite as your only contribution is: "Don't listen to Jules Winnfield". And you manage to post outdated facts while trying to prove that ITE, CLS is undoubtedly the better school to take, regardless of incurring a 6-figure debt.

Please STFU

You are the last person to say anything.

I think its about time both of you give it a rest. Why are you both getting so worked up about somebody else's school choice. Calm down.

User avatar
Jules Winnfield
Posts: 214
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2010 4:32 pm

Re: Cornell w/120K versus Columbia at sticker

Postby Jules Winnfield » Sat Mar 13, 2010 12:58 pm

"Hear me talkin' hillbilly boy? I ain't through with you by a damn sight. I'm gonna get Medieval on your ass."
Last edited by Jules Winnfield on Sat Mar 27, 2010 4:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
agentdedalus
Posts: 47
Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2009 1:24 pm

Re: Cornell w/120K versus Columbia at sticker

Postby agentdedalus » Sat Mar 13, 2010 1:03 pm

Jules Winnfield wrote:
"Hear me talkin' hillbilly boy? I ain't through with you by a damn sight. I'm gonna get Medieval on your ass."


can't believe i just logged-on to see This. Jules, right or not in this forum, you've given my St. Patrick's Day an excellent start. raise a stout to Eire, livid posters, and god grant you steer/stumble clear of The Black Maria.

User avatar
Jules Winnfield
Posts: 214
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2010 4:32 pm

Re: Cornell w/120K versus Columbia at sticker

Postby Jules Winnfield » Sat Mar 13, 2010 1:10 pm

To OP:

If my answers frighten you then you should cease asking scary questions.
Last edited by Jules Winnfield on Sat Mar 27, 2010 4:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Bronte
Posts: 2128
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 10:44 pm

Re: Cornell w/120K versus Columbia at sticker

Postby Bronte » Sat Mar 13, 2010 1:14 pm

Jules Winnfield wrote:You're being a hypocrite as your only contribution is: "Don't listen to Jules Winnfield". And you manage to post outdated facts while trying to prove that ITE, CLS is undoubtedly the better school to take, regardless of incurring a 6-figure debt.

Please STFU

You are the last person to say anything.


I've never once said the OP should go to CLS. I've posted some statistics, which you are somehow trying to turn into a negative thing. Where I differ with you is that, while you believe this thread should be locked, I believe OP has reasons to consider both options.

User avatar
TTTennis
Posts: 346
Joined: Sun Dec 13, 2009 1:12 pm

Re: Cornell w/120K versus Columbia at sticker

Postby TTTennis » Sat Mar 13, 2010 3:08 pm

ITT two people fight over what someone ELSE should do with their life. Good stuff.

User avatar
Dignan
Posts: 1110
Joined: Sun Feb 08, 2009 5:52 pm

Re: Cornell w/120K versus Columbia at sticker

Postby Dignan » Sat Mar 13, 2010 7:57 pm

johndh wrote:
Dignan wrote:
johndh wrote:I keep seeing arguments talking about Cornell's placement at the medians but is it too unrealistic to assume that with such a large scholarship the OP could potentially finish around the top of the class where employment opportunities are far different? (I hope so, I just received the same scholarship, although without the CLS acceptance, and I am seriously considering accepting it.)

The conventional wisdom is that it's a mistake to assume you will finish near the top of your class. There is, the argument runs, a fair amount of randomness and luck in law school grading. And, as you and I both know, we're just a blown logic game away from having numbers that look like the typical Cornell Law student. We're not that special.


Sorry if that came across as incredibly arrogant but my point is that assuming the same talent and effort at both schools, your relative class ranking could be very different.

I don't think you came off as arrogant at all. Upon rereading my "we're not that special" sentence, I can see how you interpreted my comment as suggesting that you were being arrogant. But that's really not what I meant. I was trying to make the point that there probably isn't that much difference between the quality of students at Cornell and the quality of students at Columbia.

A few months ago on TLS, there was a discussion about relative student quality. (I can't find the thread right now.) One of the commenters had transferred from Georgetown to Harvard. He noted that, with respect to intellectual ability, there wasn't a noticeable difference between students at the median at GULC versus students at the median at HLS, even though the median students at HLS were in a much better position to land good jobs after graduation.

In posts from current law students, one consistent message is that you should not assume that you will finish near the top of the class just because you had better admissions numbers than most of your classmates. It's apparently pretty common for top admits to end up around the median of the class; and it's common for applicants who barely squeaked in to end up in the top 10%.
Last edited by Dignan on Sat Mar 13, 2010 8:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Dignan
Posts: 1110
Joined: Sun Feb 08, 2009 5:52 pm

Re: Cornell w/120K versus Columbia at sticker

Postby Dignan » Sat Mar 13, 2010 8:10 pm

dakatz wrote:I had the chance to visit Cornell today and, OP, I really loved it. I have a Chicago offer at sticker, which is relatively similar to your Columbia offer, and if Cornell offered me 120K, I would be VERY tempted by it. Both schools are so different though. Be sure to visit both and determine which one has the right feel for you. Yes, Columbia places better and has a bigger name, but Cornell is still doing well. I spoke to a ton of students today, even those from the dreaded Class of 2011, and most said they have jobs lined up and that it wasn't too huge an impediment. You're in a wonderful position and you cannot make a wrong choice. Personally, I don't think the extra 120K (and the interest that would accrue on that) is worth the difference between Columbia and Cornell.

Dakatz--what did you love about Cornell? Feel free to PM me.

imchuckbass58
Posts: 1245
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 3:24 pm

Re: Cornell w/120K versus Columbia at sticker

Postby imchuckbass58 » Sat Mar 13, 2010 8:21 pm

Dignan wrote:In posts from current law students, one consistent message is that you should not assume that you will finish near the top of the class just because you had better admissions numbers than most of your classmates. It's apparently pretty common for top admits to end up around the median of the class; and it's common for applicants who barely squeaked in to end up in the top 10%.


Yeah, this is pretty true. I'm sure there's a tendency for merit scholarship kids to end up in the top half, but it's nothing you can count on.

Especially when you get to the T14, the differences (numbers-wise) between the median admit and the people with full rides aren't huge in an absolute sense.

Interesting article a while back - a guy who won the Sears Prize at Harvard (highest GPA in the class) got rejected the first time he applied, and in off the waitlist the second time.

--LinkRemoved--

User avatar
Reedie
Posts: 414
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2009 7:46 pm

Re: Cornell w/120K versus Columbia at sticker

Postby Reedie » Sat Mar 13, 2010 9:37 pm

Dignan wrote:It's apparently pretty common for top admits to end up around the median of the class; and it's common for applicants who barely squeaked in to end up in the top 10%.


Yes, remember statistically we just aren't talking about very big differences. The LSAT is not devised to be accurate in measuring the difference between a 170 and a 174, yet those two scores are enormously different in terms of admissions outcomes. The system is so competitive at the top that students are being grouped based on tiny differences.

User avatar
Unemployed
Posts: 699
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 12:35 am

Re: Cornell w/120K versus Columbia at sticker

Postby Unemployed » Sat Mar 13, 2010 10:01 pm

I am a CLS 1L so take what I say with a grain of salt. That said, I was debt-averse enough to stick with a substantial scholarship here instead of jumping on the HLS bandwagon off the waitlist, so perhaps I can be a bit more neutral than a typical CLS student.

I would advise you to ignore Jules (does anyone else think his posts reek of Kurama), but he does have one extremely valid point. No one can fully comprehend what it means to borrow 160k-220k before repayment begins. I didn't read all of your posts here, but I am under the impression that you've worked/paid taxes/took care of yourself before? Play around with some interest and monthly payment calculators - it will give you a taste of what's to come.

If you want to be a run-of-the-mill T14 graduate in a NLJ250 firm, Cornell appears (at least to me) to be a better choice. You have indicated, however, that you want different things, right? People talk about clerkships, academia, PI, government jobs, or regional practice as if they are ANY easier than biglaw. This is not true. Take a look at Cornell's 2009 placement stats. They placed exactly 1 person in PI. They also placed exactly 1 person in government, although it would be safe to assume there will be more after 1-2 years, when people who clerked/biglawed apply for DOJ Honors and other posts. They placed 7 people in "academia," but none was in a faculty track. 1 is getting an advanced degree, and 6 are doing "research," whatever that means. If some of those people are doing these 2-year pre-tenure-track training programs, then that counts. But the chart is unclear. The point I am trying to make is that if you are really committed to doing something other than biglaw, every little advantage counts. Obviously, I don't have the 2009 PI/government/clerkship/academia chart from Columbia to make a solid case that it does any better than Cornell, but I would bet my money (well, I have negative wealth these days, so let's say the entirety of my Columbia scholarship) on it. Are these advantages worth 160k? What about 120k? What about 0k but with career restrictions (LRAP)? Maybe, maybe not. But that is a personal calculus. No one here can tell you what to do.

I can only tell you that even though I've done very well at Columbia, I sometimes wonder whether I should have gone to HLS after all.

User avatar
Jules Winnfield
Posts: 214
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2010 4:32 pm

Re: Cornell w/120K versus Columbia at sticker

Postby Jules Winnfield » Sat Mar 13, 2010 10:05 pm

!
Last edited by Jules Winnfield on Sat Mar 27, 2010 4:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Jules Winnfield
Posts: 214
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2010 4:32 pm

Re: Cornell w/120K versus Columbia at sticker

Postby Jules Winnfield » Sat Mar 13, 2010 10:08 pm

?
Last edited by Jules Winnfield on Sat Mar 27, 2010 4:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Unemployed
Posts: 699
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 12:35 am

Re: Cornell w/120K versus Columbia at sticker

Postby Unemployed » Sat Mar 13, 2010 10:22 pm

Oh, and I would also like to add that Cornell students study really, really hard. This is not just an overblown reputation. Good for them, but you need to get used to that kind of lifestyle. Not that people don't work hard at CLS, but from what I saw (yes, I visited Cornell more than a few times for personal reasons), boy do they take school seriously...

NY88
Posts: 34
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2010 12:36 pm

Re: Cornell w/120K versus Columbia at sticker

Postby NY88 » Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:32 pm

Debt free or $2,500 a month for 10 years? Take the money and run. Cornell is a Top 14. We aren't talking about some no name school. In NYC Cornell has even outpaced NYU some years finishing 2nd only to Columbia. Keep another thing in mind it is not what you know but who you know. If you read these postings you would think the only people practicing law come out of HYS.
There is only one guarantee in this whole scenario and that is you are getting $120,000 cash with your Cornell Law Degree.
You need to make $180000 to clear $120000.
NO BRAINER

User avatar
Unemployed
Posts: 699
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 12:35 am

Re: Cornell w/120K versus Columbia at sticker

Postby Unemployed » Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:55 pm

NY88 wrote:In NYC Cornell has even outpaced NYU some years finishing 2nd only to Columbia.


Seriously? (Genuine curiosity)

NY88 wrote:Keep another thing in mind it is not what you know but who you know.


This is overrated, at least for biglaw hiring.

But I agree with your point generally. Cornell is an elite law school that can hold its own.

NY88
Posts: 34
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2010 12:36 pm

Re: Cornell w/120K versus Columbia at sticker

Postby NY88 » Sun Mar 14, 2010 12:08 am

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=93259

Cornell does well.

imchuckbass58
Posts: 1245
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 3:24 pm

Re: Cornell w/120K versus Columbia at sticker

Postby imchuckbass58 » Sun Mar 14, 2010 12:17 am

NY88 wrote:http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=93259

Cornell does well.


I agree with your general point, but I think the data in that link is highly questionable. First off, if you read the qualifiers, there are lots of things excluded from the count. Second, just anecdotally from knowing 3Ls, way more than 25% of Columbia and NYU placed into NYC V100.

This, in my opinion is more reliable:

http://lawfirmaddict.blogspot.com/2006/ ... ement.html

User avatar
Unemployed
Posts: 699
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 12:35 am

Re: Cornell w/120K versus Columbia at sticker

Postby Unemployed » Sun Mar 14, 2010 12:19 am

NY88 wrote:http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=93259

Cornell does well.


Weeell.... that study is persuasive at best - it's certainly not dispositive. It's not like Cornell "outpaced" Harvard/Yale/Stanford.

User avatar
rayiner
Posts: 6184
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:43 am

Re: Cornell w/120K versus Columbia at sticker

Postby rayiner » Sun Mar 14, 2010 12:21 am

Unemployed wrote:
NY88 wrote:http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=93259

Cornell does well.


Weeell.... that study is persuasive at best - it's certainly not dispositive. It's not like Cornell "outpaced" Harvard/Yale/Stanford.


Better study of V100 placement: http://lawfirmaddict.blogspot.com/2006/ ... ement.html

It includes all V100 offices, instead of just NYC, but CLS and Cornell all place mostly into NYC anyway so it should be equivalent.




Return to “Choosing a Law School”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: carlos_danger, MSNbot Media, TheSpanishMain and 3 guests