The End All For Each State's Best Law Schools Forum

[Thomas Jefferson]

I filled out most of the states. any one have any objections?

Yes, W&M should not be ahead of W&L. W&L should be first, but at the very least they need to be tied.

[dailygrind]

Anyone have an idea for the rest of California and New Jersey?

I think New Jersey only has 3 law schools: Rutgers Newark, Rutgers Camden, and Seton Hall. All 3 are ranked pretty similarly (87, 77, and 77 respectively), but both Rutgers have tuition costs that are about half of Seton Hall.

I answered NJ. No one listened .

I like how you gave New Jersey a bunch of NY law schools. I think we should take NYC out of NY's hands as well. NYC has way more in common with NJ than it does with NY (except for the name).

[keg411]

Anyone have an idea for the rest of California and New Jersey?

I think New Jersey only has 3 law schools: Rutgers Newark, Rutgers Camden, and Seton Hall. All 3 are ranked pretty similarly (87, 77, and 77 respectively), but both Rutgers have tuition costs that are about half of Seton Hall.

I answered NJ. No one listened .

I like how you gave New Jersey a bunch of NY law schools. I think we should take NYC out of NY's hands as well. NYC has way more in common with NJ than it does with NY (except for the name).

Because that's where those schools place as well . The Philly schools place in South Jersey and the NYC schools place in North Jersey. Not just the NJ schools can get you a job in NJ. I thought that was the point .

[dailygrind]

Maybe it is. It's the OP's list, they can make the call on that. It'd probably complicate matters a bit, although it would probably be more useful.

[prospectiveprospect]

Maybe it is. It's the OP's list, they can make the call on that. It'd probably complicate matters a bit, although it would probably be more useful.

Already tried the state switches it got a little confusing so i changed it back to schools that are in-state.

[sunrunner]

How long before Penn State overtakes Villanova, Pitt, and Temple in terms of placement in PA? It seems only a matter of time. PSU has surpassed Pitt in the rankings, is tied with Temple, and is closing on Villanova.

I don't think it's necessarily going to happen. I think that the three schools will remain near each other for quite some time. While PSU has done well because it really has increased its scholarship opportunities and is also investing tons of money into its two campuses, both campuses are in a fairly rural part of central PA. That will make it hard for PSU students to land the top jobs in PA, although quite a few will if it keeps attracting many of the top PA law students. If it was located in a metropolitan area, it would have a chance.

But don't you think it's likely that Penn State vaults into the top 50 soon based on what it has done over the past decade? It seems that Penn State could become something like an Iowa, Ohio State, Indiana, or Illinois based on the fact that it is the flagship state school and is gaining in prestige at a nearly unprecedented rate. Iowa, Indiana, Illinois, and Wisconsin place very well in Chi town, so couldn't Penn State do the same in Philly, Pittsburgh and elsewhere in the region? I'm an out of stater just trying to guage things here, but really, I have zero interest in the other three and PSU is quite attractive. Maybe the Penn State name just has more national appeal or something.

I'm not saying that Penn State is better than Villanova, Temple and Pitt, but it certainly seems as though things are moving in that direction if the US News rankings are accurate.

[GatorStudent]

But don't you think it's likely that Penn State vaults into the top 50 soon based on what it has done over the past decade? It seems that Penn State could become something like an Iowa, Ohio State, Indiana, or Illinois based on the fact that it is the flagship state school and is gaining in prestige at a nearly unprecedented rate. Iowa, Indiana, Illinois, and Wisconsin place very well in Chi town, so couldn't Penn State do the same in Philly, Pittsburgh and elsewhere in the region? I'm an out of stater just trying to guage things here, but really, I have zero interest in the other three and PSU is quite attractive. Maybe the Penn State name just has more national appeal or something.

I'm not saying that Penn State is better than Villanova, Temple and Pitt, but it certainly seems as though things are moving in that direction if the US News rankings are accurate.

It's possible that it could happen, but I doubt it. I lived in Pennsylvania for most of my life, and I just don't see them attracting as many of the top-notch students once prospective students learn from current students drawn to PSU due to scholarships/etc. that they're facing stiff competition in Pittsburgh and Philly from the local schools in those cities. Also, I know attorneys who are not happy with the direction that PSU is taking (with respect to two campuses, etc.), and my guess is this might translate into their willingness to hire students from other local law schools. Because of this (and how long will PSU keep dishing out all this scholarship money? They might, but they might not!), their LSAT and GPA scores will eventually plateau and possibly decline slightly, leaving them on par with the Temple and 'Nova-esque schools.

"National appeal" is misleading. I knew quite a few people up here that knew nothing about my current law school--in fact, quite a few thought I meant FSU when I said I'm going to UF!

[14yearplan]

What about coastal California north of LA and south of SF. Santa Barbara has to have lawyers. Ventura?

OP, maybe we can just break everything into counties, like:

Illinois
Cook County
1. White Sox
2. Cubs

I kid, I kid...

No, maybe I don't. lol

Here's to an all Chicago World Series in 2010!

But UC Irvine must be #3 in LA/So Cal.

[pjo]

But don't you think it's likely that Penn State vaults into the top 50 soon based on what it has done over the past decade? It seems that Penn State could become something like an Iowa, Ohio State, Indiana, or Illinois based on the fact that it is the flagship state school and is gaining in prestige at a nearly unprecedented rate. Iowa, Indiana, Illinois, and Wisconsin place very well in Chi town, so couldn't Penn State do the same in Philly, Pittsburgh and elsewhere in the region? I'm an out of stater just trying to guage things here, but really, I have zero interest in the other three and PSU is quite attractive. Maybe the Penn State name just has more national appeal or something.

I'm not saying that Penn State is better than Villanova, Temple and Pitt, but it certainly seems as though things are moving in that direction if the US News rankings are accurate.

It's possible that it could happen, but I doubt it. I lived in Pennsylvania for most of my life, and I just don't see them attracting as many of the top-notch students once prospective students learn from current students drawn to PSU due to scholarships/etc. that they're facing stiff competition in Pittsburgh and Philly from the local schools in those cities. Also, I know attorneys who are not happy with the direction that PSU is taking (with respect to two campuses, etc.), and my guess is this might translate into their willingness to hire students from other local law schools. Because of this (and how long will PSU keep dishing out all this scholarship money? They might, but they might not!), their LSAT and GPA scores will eventually plateau and possibly decline slightly, leaving them on par with the Temple and 'Nova-esque schools.

"National appeal" is misleading. I knew quite a few people up here that knew nothing about my current law school--in fact, quite a few thought I meant FSU when I said I'm going to UF!

+1, although PSU is technically a public school, in staters don't get any boost like they do at temple and pitt as far as tuition. Plus as OP said, the fact that it is literally in the middle of no where in my mind will always be a factor in keeping it behind the other schools in their respective regions. frankly when it comes to it recent jump in the USNEWS rankings, its not because PSU has suddenly become a better school, but rather because it did some serious rankings gaming. This is also why Pitt is ranked behind it. In fact Pitt has almost always been ranked right by case in the high
50's low 60's but imho it ranking is suffering because Pitt doesn't do enough to game the rankings (i.e. they need to revamp their building and what not liek PSU did)

[reverendt]

How long before Penn State overtakes Villanova, Pitt, and Temple in terms of placement in PA? It seems only a matter of time. PSU has surpassed Pitt in the rankings, is tied with Temple, and is closing on Villanova.

I don't see it, at least as far as job placement. Rankings are different. Employers don't look at rankings....they already have a mental assessment of a school's quality in their head, so unless a school really starts to shit the bed and produce low-quality graduates, the employer is gonna keep hiring from the schools he likes.
Temple, Nova & Pitt are all in (or at least right near) the 2 largest legal markets in PA. The firms in these markets love their local graduates (in Pittsburgh the Duquesne grads are fairly well entrenched too).
Penn state doesn't have that kind of relationship with a major market. The Carlisle campus is in close proximity to Harrisburg, and may come to (or perhaps already has) dominate that market, especially since the only local competition is Widener.
Frankly, I don't know why a law student who wants to work in a city would choose to live in State College anyway. If you want the Pittsburgh or Philly market, go to school in Pittsburgh or Philly. On the other hand, it's probably a great location for people who are more comfortable with rural, small town life and want to become a small town lawyer.

[GatorStudent]

On the other hand, it's probably a great location for people who are more comfortable with rural, small town life and want to become a small town lawyer.

Yeah, it's a great place to go if you want to live in central PA, and can keep one's debt low. (Their tuition is very high, although they give out many scholarships. Often, however, those scholarships are contingent on maintaining a certain GPA. The GPA requirement isn't normally a tough one, but it's still something to consider.)

[ruleser]

This is how usnwr should be - uc irvine should be somewhere, but who knows where - maybe make an OC area for CA and put uci then chapman

[arhmcpo]

I filled out most of the states. any one have any objections?

I objected to Loyola and Southwestern being ranked above USD.

Loyloa
USD
Southwestern

I agree with this generally.
USD places better than (Pepperdine, Loyola, Southwestern) in San Diego; but outside of San Diego (specifically LA area) I think they definitely have to go to the bottom of the list.
Southwestern does pretty well in government/PI positions in LA county.

LA County/Orange County
1. UCLA
2. USC
3. UCI (Predicted w/o any evidence yet)
4. Pepperdine (similar to Loyola but improving)
5. Loyola (similar to Pepperdine but remaining constant)
6. Southwestern (From what I've heard from TLS for a couple years, probably better than USD within parts of LA)
7. USD (probably places better than Southwestern in OC)

[notme]

LA County/Orange County:

1. UCLA
2. USC
3. USD
4. Pepperdine
5. Loyola
6. Southwestern

Attend UCLA.
Friends at USC and I think it is a great school.
USD enjoys a good reputation and I suspect that it will shortly overtake Pepperdine.
I like Pepperdine, I just don't think it is as good as USD.
Sorry, I just don't like Loyola. The only thing it seems to have going for it is employment prospects due to its location, (which, by the way, sucks).
Southwestern, although not great, is better than most people think.

[sapp]

I object to it being called "LA Area" and propose it be called "Southern California."

1. The general population in some southern California cities loathe LA and find it offensive to be referred to as someone from the LA area.
2. For the sake of fluidity as you list "Northern California"

I am neither confirming nor denying that I may be included in the above referenced population.

[ppa840]

For MA, BU over BC

[Spaceman Spiff]

For MA, BU over BC

This seems arbitrary.

[evilgenius]

Someone might have done this already, but for NY I'd say its (IMO):

1. Fordham
2. Cardozo
3. Brooklyn
4. St. John's
5. University at Buffalo
6. Syracuse
7. Hofstra
8. Albany
9. NYLS
10. CUNY
11. Pace
12. Touro

[Blindmelon]

Someone might have done this already, but for NY I'd say its (IMO):

1. Fordham
2. Cardozo
3. Brooklyn
4. St. John's
5. University at Buffalo
6. Syracuse
6. Hofstra
6. Albany
6. NYLS
6. CUNY
6. Pace
6. Touro

More like... is there really a discernible difference between the #6s?

[evilgenius]

Someone might have done this already, but for NY I'd say its (IMO):

1. Fordham
2. Cardozo
3. Brooklyn
4. St. John's
5. University at Buffalo
6. Syracuse
6. Hofstra
6. Albany
6. NYLS
6. CUNY
7. Pace
7. Touro

More like... is there really a discernible difference between the #6s?

You're right, most of these are similar. But there are clearly a couple of #7s.

[pany1985]

LA County/Orange County:

1. UCLA
2. USC
3. USD
4. Pepperdine
5. Loyola
6. Southwestern

Attend UCLA.
Friends at USC and I think it is a great school.
USD enjoys a good reputation and I suspect that it will shortly overtake Pepperdine.
I like Pepperdine, I just don't think it is as good as USD.
Sorry, I just don't like Loyola. The only thing it seems to have going for it is employment prospects due to its location, (which, by the way, sucks).
Southwestern, although not great, is better than most people think.

I'd go ahead and slide UC Irvine in there between USC and USD


You can throw Chapman and Whittier down there near the bottom somewhere...

[istorm88]

Anyone have an idea for the rest of California and New Jersey?

I think New Jersey only has 3 law schools: Rutgers Newark, Rutgers Camden, and Seton Hall. All 3 are ranked pretty similarly (87, 77, and 77 respectively), but both Rutgers have tuition costs that are about half of Seton Hall.

I answered NJ. No one listened .

I like how you gave New Jersey a bunch of NY law schools. I think we should take NYC out of NY's hands as well. NYC has way more in common with NJ than it does with NY (except for the name).

+1, BUT if we're keeping NY intact....

Someone might have done this already, but for NY I'd say its (IMO):

1. Fordham
2. Cardozo
3. Brooklyn
4. St. John's
5. University at Buffalo
6. Syracuse
6. Hofstra
6. Albany
6. NYLS
6. CUNY
7. Pace
7. Touro

More like... is there really a discernible difference between the #6s?

You're right, most of these are similar. But there are clearly a couple of #7s.

+1

[FreshPrince]

Pennsylvania -Temple/Pitt/Villanova/PSU??

I really think PA is a major crapshoot. I'lll throw in my 2cents tho. Also, I included schools from other states, sorry if that wasn't allowed lol.

Pennsylvania
1.Temple
2.Pitt/Villanova
3.PSU
4.Rutgers
5.Duquesne
--actually after thinking about this Temple/Pitt/Nova should all be 1 for PA

Virginia
1.William and Mary
2.Washington and Lee

Ohio
1.Notre Dame
2.OSU
3.Case

West Virginia
1.Pitt
2.WVU

D.C.
1.GW
2.BU

ahh! didn't see this one. this is good, and i think that if we *can* throw in out-of-state schools, WVU and Notre Dame both do really well in Western PA in general. a law grad out of ND would def. do well, and one from WVU would at least have a decent alumni network.

You can't possibly think that Notre Dame places better than OSU in Ohio. Are you from Ohio? It doesn't matter that Notre Dame is ranked better. OSU dominates Ohio.

[barracudasix]

not from ohio, and didn't do the ranking on ohio. pjo?

[khanvalescent]

Any particular reason for not including Hawaii? Other states with only one law school still have the privileged of being listed.