Is Michigan slipping?

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atparks
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Re: Is Michigan slipping?

Postby atparks » Fri Mar 05, 2010 4:44 pm

sam.emton wrote:I have talked to several practicing partners at large firms in DC and the South and law school professors on the East Coast/in the South, and they feel that Michigan is "slipping" and that it isn't what it used to be in terms of rank/prestige. The feeling I get is: When I was in law school 20 years ago, Michigan was one of the best. Now, it's still good, but not great.

Is this a problem for Michigan long-term? Will the value of a Michigan Law degree still hold up in 20 years? Will Michigan hold steady in the top 10 or will it continue to fall?

Finally, I have heard this from 5 or 6 lawyers/law professors at other schools. Is this a general feeling or do I just have a very biased sample.



This is all ridiculous. Detroit has been a ghost town for years and will never affect UM. It is and always will be top 10. Believe it. GO BLUE!

09042014
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Re: Is Michigan slipping?

Postby 09042014 » Fri Mar 05, 2010 4:54 pm

Nightrunner wrote:a. N00b posts random sentiment (gained from speaking with "practicing partners" and "law professors" all over the country?) about Mich slipping.
b. some fools take it seriously.
c. OP disappears
d. ???????
e. Pics, Fish, or GTFO


You Avatar is objectively the best tar of all time.

oneforship
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Re: Is Michigan slipping?

Postby oneforship » Fri Mar 05, 2010 4:57 pm

can I stay?
--ImageRemoved--

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holydonkey
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Re: Is Michigan slipping?

Postby holydonkey » Fri Mar 05, 2010 5:00 pm

Never pass up an opportunity to spread the gospel of the T13.

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T14_Scholly
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Re: Is Michigan slipping?

Postby T14_Scholly » Fri Mar 05, 2010 5:00 pm

What kind of idiot would call a top ten school "good but not great?"

09042014
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Re: Is Michigan slipping?

Postby 09042014 » Fri Mar 05, 2010 5:11 pm

oneforship wrote:can I stay?
--ImageRemoved--


Looks like its barely 14 inches.

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adameus
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Re: Is Michigan slipping?

Postby adameus » Fri Mar 05, 2010 5:11 pm

definetely in decline

vyelps
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Re: Is Michigan slipping?

Postby vyelps » Fri Mar 05, 2010 5:13 pm

sigh...the proliferation of these threads never ceases to amaze me...

the_assassin
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Re: Is Michigan slipping?

Postby the_assassin » Fri Mar 05, 2010 6:13 pm

What kind of idiot would call a top ten school "good but not great?"


One that graduated from YHS

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badwithpseudonyms
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Re: Is Michigan slipping?

Postby badwithpseudonyms » Fri Mar 05, 2010 6:21 pm

holydonkey wrote:The chances that Michigan will suddenly fall out of the T13 in 3-4 years is extremely remote. Schools are aware of their ranking and how it effects hiring/reputation. If a T13 school suddenly seemed to be in danger of losing their status, they would just increase spending per student to maintain it or reverse the trend. Michigan's economy has been crappy for, at very minimum, the last decade and it hasn't moved Michigan out of the top ten. Michigan's ranking has been moving between 7-10 for decades and all of a sudden it's going to crash in a few years?

If we're going to focus so much on rankings, let's talk about hiring rankings. If we must choose a magazine ranking, let's choose Princeton Review for sh#$s and giggles. Here, Michigan ranks 3 in Best Career Prospects. Or look at how little Michigan's NLJ250 declined compared to the rest of the T13 this year. Now I grant you that some students will choose a school based solely on location, but most will choose the school that will give them a job. Michigan still wins here. The ranking will not move significantly until this isn't true.


Blatant anti-G'Town trolling.

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Doritos
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Re: Is Michigan slipping?

Postby Doritos » Sat Mar 06, 2010 2:30 am

badwithpseudonyms wrote:
holydonkey wrote:The chances that Michigan will suddenly fall out of the T13 in 3-4 years is extremely remote. Schools are aware of their ranking and how it effects hiring/reputation. If a T13 school suddenly seemed to be in danger of losing their status, they would just increase spending per student to maintain it or reverse the trend. Michigan's economy has been crappy for, at very minimum, the last decade and it hasn't moved Michigan out of the top ten. Michigan's ranking has been moving between 7-10 for decades and all of a sudden it's going to crash in a few years?

If we're going to focus so much on rankings, let's talk about hiring rankings. If we must choose a magazine ranking, let's choose Princeton Review for sh#$s and giggles. Here, Michigan ranks 3 in Best Career Prospects. Or look at how little Michigan's NLJ250 declined compared to the rest of the T13 this year. Now I grant you that some students will choose a school based solely on location, but most will choose the school that will give them a job. Michigan still wins here. The ranking will not move significantly until this isn't true.


Blatant anti-G'Town trolling.


Blatant anti-anti-G'Town trolling

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Reedie
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Re: Is Michigan slipping?

Postby Reedie » Sat Mar 06, 2010 1:03 pm

Michigan has been ranked over Stanford and Chicago in the past (remember the dude was talking about how things were two decades ago). I think it's in that context that they are purportedly slipping.

JRMjr
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Re: Is Michigan slipping?

Postby JRMjr » Sat Mar 06, 2010 1:16 pm

Reedie wrote:Michigan has been ranked over Stanford and Chicago in the past (remember the dude was talking about how things were two decades ago). I think it's in that context that they are purportedly slipping.


given the premises in this topic, people would assume its the end of the world for Berkley because of calis problems but that hasnt been mentioned.

agree over decades things change but can we really discuss this over a period of a quarter century? that would be a little presumptuous

irishman86
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Re: Is Michigan slipping?

Postby irishman86 » Sat Mar 06, 2010 2:18 pm

Reedie wrote:Michigan has been ranked over Stanford and Chicago in the past (remember the dude was talking about how things were two decades ago). I think it's in that context that they are purportedly slipping.


...That was only in 1987 because USNews used a different methodology. In 1990 when the next rankings were released with a different metric, Michigan was 7ish. Basically Michigan has stayed within 7-9 for the past 20 years. The first rankings were somewhat of a fluke because they used a different methodology.

If any real movements occur, I can see Cornell or GULC getting displaced out of the top 14.

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bighead715
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Re: Is Michigan slipping?

Postby bighead715 » Sat Mar 06, 2010 2:34 pm

Image

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Reedie
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Re: Is Michigan slipping?

Postby Reedie » Sat Mar 06, 2010 2:59 pm

JRMjr wrote:given the premises in this topic, people would assume its the end of the world for Berkley because of calis problems but that hasnt been mentioned.

agree over decades things change but can we really discuss this over a period of a quarter century? that would be a little presumptuous


Why would it be "presumptuous"? I don't quite get that. I think the problem is in the use of the present tense "slipping." I think one could make the argument that Michigan slipped from being one of the top 4 or 5 schools to one of the top 10 schools (as I recall they also used to be way more productive in--for example--churning out future academics). What I don't see any evidence for is that Michigan is continuing to "slip" relative to its peers.

As for the UC situation, the flagship departments at the flagship universities will bear the minority of the damage. Berkeley Law will just move to a private model a bit faster, as will the rest of that university. This will piss a lot of students off, and make the university less affordable. The best public university system in the country will simply cease to really be public--particularly at Berkeley, LA and maybe San Diego.

tamlyric
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Re: Is Michigan slipping?

Postby tamlyric » Sat Mar 06, 2010 2:59 pm

irishman86 wrote:
Reedie wrote:Michigan has been ranked over Stanford and Chicago in the past (remember the dude was talking about how things were two decades ago). I think it's in that context that they are purportedly slipping.


...That was only in 1987 because USNews used a different methodology. In 1990 when the next rankings were released with a different metric, Michigan was 7ish. Basically Michigan has stayed within 7-9 for the past 20 years. The first rankings were somewhat of a fluke because they used a different methodology.

If any real movements occur, I can see Cornell or GULC getting displaced out of the top 14.


+1

Of course, this isn't to say that USNWR somehow, after its first set of rankings, came to discover the methodology that reliably tracks the true hierarchy of law schools.

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Reedie
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Re: Is Michigan slipping?

Postby Reedie » Sat Mar 06, 2010 3:06 pm

A here is the reputational info I was looking for re michigan:
http://leiterlawschool.typepad.com/leiter/2008/09/the-more-things.html

JRMjr
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Re: Is Michigan slipping?

Postby JRMjr » Sat Mar 06, 2010 6:20 pm

Reedie wrote:A here is the reputational info I was looking for re michigan:
http://leiterlawschool.typepad.com/leiter/2008/09/the-more-things.html


notice columbia? did anyone panic when they went 3 to 6? I mean this whole thing is a bizarre discussion predicated on assumptions that change over time. What was a good law school 30 years ago might not be one now and further... USNWR really doesnt mean anything to anyone that has their head on straight. It might matter to a kid who is getting mommy and daddy to pay for their 3 year grad degree and they want prestige but if you are a mature individual thats slightly self-confident, you'll go to a school thats the "right fit" and then realize that 3 years of diligent work makes that stuff irrelevant.

The link is useful but if you take it at face value I think its deceiving.

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Aeon
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Re: Is Michigan slipping?

Postby Aeon » Sat Mar 06, 2010 9:24 pm

You never know if a school is actually "slipping" until after the fact has occurred. Michigan, while it has fallen a bit in the US News rankings since it placed third in 1987, has consistently remained in the top 10. Looking over the past two decades or so of data, its position looks to be relatively stable.

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Reedie
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Re: Is Michigan slipping?

Postby Reedie » Sat Mar 06, 2010 9:48 pm

JRMjr wrote:notice columbia? did anyone panic when they went 3 to 6? I mean this whole thing is a bizarre discussion predicated on assumptions that change over time. What was a good law school 30 years ago might not be one now and further... USNWR really doesnt mean anything to anyone that has their head on straight. It might matter to a kid who is getting mommy and daddy to pay for their 3 year grad degree and they want prestige but if you are a mature individual thats slightly self-confident, you'll go to a school thats the "right fit" and then realize that 3 years of diligent work makes that stuff irrelevant.


The data I listed isn't all USNWR. It's just surveys of deans from the 70s compared with USNEWS deans surveys in the late 80s and the 0s. It actually seems to show precisely the opposite: what was a good law school 30 years ago is quite likely to be a good law school today.

I don't really think the problem is that the "USNWR really doesnt mean anything..." but rather that it means less than some people seem to think. For example, if you look at my lsn you will see (long story as to why) a fairly wide net of schools I've applied to with the lowest ranking admit currently being UNM and the highest ranking being NYU. I think it's fair to say that NYU provides a more flexible, national and prestigious degree that UNM, and realistically I'm likely to withdraw from UNM shortly.

The problem comes when people compare two very similar institutions based on the rankings alone. Since we are talking about Michigan, I think it would be foolish to turn down Michigan in comparison with--say Columbia--based purely on the ranking. If you go to Michigan and really like it there, and go to Columbia and feel pretty blah about it, then that ought to be reason enough to choose Michigan right there. Columbia *might* on *average* yield *marginally* better opportunities for graduates than Michigan, but these differences just aren't as big as they seem to be when you look at some list with 4 by columbia and 9 by michigan.

The link is useful but if you take it at face value I think its deceiving.


I don't know what's deceiving about it. The link suggests to me that if you'd asked in around in the legal academy about who the five best schools are, Michigan would have appeared far more often in 1977 than 2007. Hence it dropped off--again slightly--in reputation.

What the information doesn't suggest is that between 1997 and 2007 Michigan has experienced some significant downturn in reputation. In fact the reputation suggests that it has been pretty consistent since then. Further it doesn't in anyway suggest that someone should be worried that during the 3 years they are in law school Michigan is going to fall apart (again, the data actually suggests that that's highly unlikely).

So, I don't think taking the data at "face value" is much of a problem. I think forgetting what the data actually says and what it is (just a survey after all) is a problem.

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rayiner
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Re: Is Michigan slipping?

Postby rayiner » Sat Mar 06, 2010 10:53 pm

For Michigan to drop out of the T10, one of NU or Duke has to overtake it. I don't see either happening in the near future. I don't think NU will overcome the gap in academic reputation, and Duke is itself down over the last 20 years, from solid T10 to "on the cusp" like NU.




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