Harvard 3Ls Without Job Prospects

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BlueCivic
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Re: Harvard 3Ls Without Job Prospects

Postby BlueCivic » Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:26 pm

crackberry wrote:Because of the way percentages work, I understand there are holes in this argument, but I'd argue that Stanford and Yale are better off that Harvard in this economy. S and Y have class sizes < 200. HLS has a class size of ~550.


Without conceding the argument--lets assume that SLS or YLS is better than HLS for the person near the bottom of the class who is in danger of getting no offered. HLS may be better than the smaller schools for a person in the middle of the class because there is a larger alumni network. Or maybe HLS is better than SLS because someone likes politics. Or maybe SLS is better than HLS because someone wants to work in IP.

The point is that the distinctions at this level do not lend themselves very well to broad statements that one of these schools is better than the other, in my opinion.

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crackberry
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Re: Harvard 3Ls Without Job Prospects

Postby crackberry » Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:26 pm

Yale is king everywhere. Let's take it out of the discussion. Those kids ARE guaranteed jobs.

Stanford grads are going to heavily self-select to California, where there are only two T14s. Also, the next nearest T14 is Michigan/Chicago/NU. California firms LOVE SLS grads. They take them in droves. Harvard kids go heavily to NYC and DC, two saturated markets that are the main targets of many good schools. It makes some sense that SLS grads would be slightly more insulated from a tanking economy than HLS grads.

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TheLuckyOne
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Re: Harvard 3Ls Without Job Prospects

Postby TheLuckyOne » Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:26 pm

crackberry wrote:Because of the way percentages work, I understand there are holes in this argument, but I'd argue that Stanford and Yale are better off that Harvard in this economy. S and Y have class sizes < 200. HLS has a class size of ~550.


I wouldn't say it's a chance, it's just a probability that Harvard may encompass more "worse" students than Yale or Stanford, and raw statistics doesn't take into account a lot of factors.

In fact, I don't think those folks are unemployed because H did not provide them with opportunities or H is inferior to Y/S, it's that they wanted only $160 base + 100% bonus and that is just not gonna happen.

The other thing to consider is that vast number of students at Y are not interested in BigLaw and, hence, could have suffered much less from the economic breakdown. I don't really know what pool of students S typically attracts.

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crackberry
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Re: Harvard 3Ls Without Job Prospects

Postby crackberry » Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:27 pm

BlueCivic wrote:The point is that the distinctions at this level do not lend themselves very well to broad statements that one of these schools is better than the other, in my opinion.

True, this is the very definition of splitting hairs.

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lsat_fear
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Re: Harvard 3Ls Without Job Prospects

Postby lsat_fear » Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:32 pm

It kind of makes me feel better that even Harvard kids are suffering--it's like we're all in one big sinking ship together.

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DoubleChecks
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Re: Harvard 3Ls Without Job Prospects

Postby DoubleChecks » Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:36 pm

i think it certainly does come down to market choice and geographic preference

like crackberry said, HLS students will be focusing on DC and NYC...saturated markets that got hit bad in this recession

CA got pummeled as well, but i mean, if we're just comparing all of CA's firms (whole state) to one city NYC that got hit even harder...well, that's kinda a silly comparison haha, of course the larger class of HLS grads who aim for NYC/DC will have a harder time getting jobs (%-wise) than say SLS in all of CA, once again for the reasons crackberry mentioned

it isnt so much HLS is unable to provide jobs for its 3L's or graduates, just there are fewer job openings in the market area all those HLS biglaw kids want

im just glad no bone in my body wants to work in NYC biglaw..haha, instead, ill be heading back down to an insular market that weathered the recession best of all (relatively speaking) :P

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The Brainalist
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Re: Harvard 3Ls Without Job Prospects

Postby The Brainalist » Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:39 pm

TheLuckyOne wrote:
The Brainalist wrote:Harvard= some chance of no job at all, much less NLJ250, a clerkship, or top PI/govt
Yale= guaranteed a job, probably NLJ250 (if desired) or a gov't job, if you don't land a clerkship first
Stanford= probably guaranteed a job, probably NLJ250 (given the latest statistics, where it didn't go down at all) or a gov't job, if you don't land a clerkship.


Blatant anti-Harvard trolling! :evil:


I could be wrong about Yale and Stanford and I find the lack of transparency in employment outcomes confounding. Why is it so hard for someone in stanford's career services to call up the 180 students at stanford, and just poll them with specific questions? I wish every school in the top 20 did this, and with such small classes, I don't see why we can't have clearer information. So I only pick up these small indicators of what is going on from ATL or XOXO or JDU or this site to give some idea. The thing is, I can't think of one example of someone talking about being, or knowing, a jobless 3L at Stanford or Yale. It could just be that they don't complain publicly, but it could be that fewer of them are actually jobless. I don't know.

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crackberry
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Re: Harvard 3Ls Without Job Prospects

Postby crackberry » Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:44 pm

The Brainalist wrote:
TheLuckyOne wrote:
The Brainalist wrote:Harvard= some chance of no job at all, much less NLJ250, a clerkship, or top PI/govt
Yale= guaranteed a job, probably NLJ250 (if desired) or a gov't job, if you don't land a clerkship first
Stanford= probably guaranteed a job, probably NLJ250 (given the latest statistics, where it didn't go down at all) or a gov't job, if you don't land a clerkship.


Blatant anti-Harvard trolling! :evil:


I could be wrong about Yale and Stanford and I find the lack of transparency in employment outcomes confounding. Why is it so hard for someone in stanford's career services to call up the 180 students at stanford, and just poll them with specific questions? I wish every school in the top 20 did this, and with such small classes, I don't see why we can't have clearer information. So I only pick up these small indicators of what is going on from ATL or XOXO or JDU or this site to give some idea. The thing is, I can't think of one example of someone talking about being, or knowing, a jobless 3L at Stanford or Yale. It could just be that they don't complain publicly, but it could be that fewer of them are actually jobless. I don't know.

Well there are definitely FEWER jobless 3Ls at SLS and YLS than HLS, but this is because of class size. It's the PERCENTAGE of jobless 3Ls at the three schools that matters.

Think about it this way, if 5 percent of HLS 3Ls are jobless, that's 25+ kids! At Yale/Stanford, it's 9.

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The Brainalist
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Re: Harvard 3Ls Without Job Prospects

Postby The Brainalist » Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:51 pm

crackberry wrote:Well there are definitely FEWER jobless 3Ls at SLS and YLS than HLS, but this is because of class size. It's the PERCENTAGE of jobless 3Ls at the three schools that matters.

Think about it this way, if 5 percent of HLS 3Ls are jobless, that's 25+ kids! At Yale/Stanford, it's 9.


Yeah, but how do we know it isn't 10 jobless 3Ls at H, and none at Stanford? I mean, that could be the case. I'd be assuming that unemployment is commensurate with class size if someone could come on and say, at this moment, there is one jobless Stanford 3L. With only 180 students to employ, though, I don't think it has to be proportionate. Harvard has to place 550 grads, and 100% percent seems an impossible task with that many people. I could see hitting 100% if you only had to do 180 people, so I won't presume that they haven't done that.

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crackberry
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Re: Harvard 3Ls Without Job Prospects

Postby crackberry » Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:54 pm

The Brainalist wrote:
crackberry wrote:Well there are definitely FEWER jobless 3Ls at SLS and YLS than HLS, but this is because of class size. It's the PERCENTAGE of jobless 3Ls at the three schools that matters.

Think about it this way, if 5 percent of HLS 3Ls are jobless, that's 25+ kids! At Yale/Stanford, it's 9.


Yeah, but how do we know it isn't 10 jobless 3Ls at H, and none at Stanford? I mean, that could be the case. I'd be assuming that unemployment is commensurate with class size if someone could come on and say, at this moment, there is one jobless Stanford 3L. With only 180 students to employ, though, I don't think it has to be proportionate. Harvard has to place 550 grads, and 100% percent seems an impossible task with that many people. I could see hitting 100% if you only had to do 180 people, so I won't presume that they haven't done that.

I certainly can't say I know of any jobless 3Ls at Stanford, but I have talked to hiring partners at Bay Area firms who said that they turned away some SLS grads last year. It's obviously possible the spurned SLS students found employment elsewhere, but who knows.

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ConMan345
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Re: Harvard 3Ls Without Job Prospects

Postby ConMan345 » Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:59 pm

crackberry wrote:
The Brainalist wrote:
crackberry wrote:Well there are definitely FEWER jobless 3Ls at SLS and YLS than HLS, but this is because of class size. It's the PERCENTAGE of jobless 3Ls at the three schools that matters.

Think about it this way, if 5 percent of HLS 3Ls are jobless, that's 25+ kids! At Yale/Stanford, it's 9.


Yeah, but how do we know it isn't 10 jobless 3Ls at H, and none at Stanford? I mean, that could be the case. I'd be assuming that unemployment is commensurate with class size if someone could come on and say, at this moment, there is one jobless Stanford 3L. With only 180 students to employ, though, I don't think it has to be proportionate. Harvard has to place 550 grads, and 100% percent seems an impossible task with that many people. I could see hitting 100% if you only had to do 180 people, so I won't presume that they haven't done that.

I certainly can't say I know of any jobless 3Ls at Stanford, but I have talked to hiring partners at Bay Area firms who said that they turned away some SLS grads last year. It's obviously possible the spurned SLS students found employment elsewhere, but who knows.


I do! More than one, so they exist, at the very least. Also, I talked to a hiring partner in the Bay Area who said that he doesn't see an appreciable difference in the number of HLS alums versus the number of SLS alums in the area (high CA self-selection + small class = low CA self-selection + big, big class) (roughly, and only anecdotally, of course)

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Herb Watchfell
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Re: Harvard 3Ls Without Job Prospects

Postby Herb Watchfell » Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:00 pm

Harvard is a sausage factory. And once in a while you produce more sausage than you can sell. I'm not surprised.

Oh well, like your grandpa used to say, "When life gives you sausage, have a sausagefest"

generals10
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Re: Harvard 3Ls Without Job Prospects

Postby generals10 » Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:01 pm

I've talked to a couple students at each of HYS recently, and while the general feeling is still that the overwhelming majority of HLS students are fine, I have heard a anecdotal accounts of no-offered 3Ls and 2Ls who struck out at OCI. I haven't heard this at all from YLS and SLS students--a Yalie said something along the lines of "everyone at Yale and Stanford who wanted a firm job still got one, even if they were choosing from among significantly fewer options than they would have in boom years, or had to take a firm they weren't crazy about...This wasn't the case at Harvard." That person (and a couple of others that I talked to) attributed this to the class size and more generous grade-reform systems (i.e. practically no one at YS is carrying around even a single Low Pass) that shield the bottom third of the class.

Of course, this doesn't mean that there aren't unemployed 3Ls or scrambling 2Ls at Stanford/Yale (I would be shocked if there weren't at least a couple at SLS, if only due to bad bidding strategy or horrible interviewing skills), but it suggests that they are at least a lot less visible than at HLS, to a degree that probably isn't accounted for by the fact that Harvard has a greater pool to exhibit. Grain of salt--small sample, great potential for bias, etc.--but that's what I've been told.

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crackberry
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Re: Harvard 3Ls Without Job Prospects

Postby crackberry » Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:01 pm

ConMan345 wrote:I do! More than one, so they exist, at the very least. Also, I talked to a hiring partner in the Bay Area who said that he doesn't see an appreciable difference in the number of HLS alums versus the number of SLS alums in the area (high CA self-selection + small class = low CA self-selection + big, big class) (roughly, and only anecdotally, of course)

There we go. I'd postulate that HLS = SLS in terms of 3L unemployment these days. That said, I think Yale is going to be safer than both.

Also, while the number of HLS and SLS grads might be similar, I think SLS grads have an easier time finding jobs out here (California). The alumni network HAS to be stronger (despite the anecdotal evidence of roughly equivalent #s of students), and every SLS student has a demonstrated interest in California.

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The Brainalist
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Re: Harvard 3Ls Without Job Prospects

Postby The Brainalist » Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:05 pm

ConMan345 wrote:
I do! More than one, so they exist, at the very least. Also, I talked to a hiring partner in the Bay Area who said that he doesn't see an appreciable difference in the number of HLS alums versus the number of SLS alums in the area (high CA self-selection + small class = low CA self-selection + big, big class) (roughly, and only anecdotally, of course)


Awesome. Both relieving and unsettling. Can you tell us more about the jobless 3Ls at Stanford?

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Re: Harvard 3Ls Without Job Prospects

Postby DoubleChecks » Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:10 pm

generals10 wrote:I've talked to a couple students at each of HYS recently, and while the general feeling is still that the overwhelming majority of HLS students are fine, I have heard a anecdotal accounts of no-offered 3Ls and 2Ls who struck out at OCI. I haven't heard this at all from YLS and SLS students--a Yalie said something along the lines of "everyone at Yale and Stanford who wanted a firm job still got one, even if they were choosing from among significantly fewer options than they would have in boom years, or had to take a firm they weren't crazy about...This wasn't the case at Harvard." That person (and a couple of others that I talked to) attributed this to the class size and more generous grade-reform systems (i.e. practically no one at YS is carrying around even a single Low Pass) that shield the bottom third of the class.

Of course, this doesn't mean that there aren't unemployed 3Ls or scrambling 2Ls at Stanford/Yale (I would be shocked if there weren't at least a couple at SLS, if only due to bad bidding strategy or horrible interviewing skills), but it suggests that they are at least a lot less visible than at HLS, to a degree that probably isn't accounted for by the fact that Harvard has a greater pool to exhibit. Grain of salt--small sample, great potential for bias, etc.--but that's what I've been told.


well id imagine HLS 3L's no offered would be more visible from an anecdotal standpoint since there are 550 HLS students a yr lol.

that being said, i have to once again point to the no offered ppl at HLS and say its because they wanted x job in y tough market (NYC/DC) most likely

someone i spoke to at HLS (current 2L - yes more anecdotal evidence!) says this past OCI yr was the worst in recent history, but mainly in terms of those wanting the "top jobs" ie biglaw jobs at the best NYC firms or something along those lines

because i was more concerned w/ returning to a TX market, I asked him how those were, and he said as a relatively "normal" HLS student he got virtually 100% of all the TX firms at OCI (and even some he mailed on the side) interested in him for SA

true SA != offer, but the large amount of interest and hits is still a good sign...i guess it comes down to, if you want a job at a top biglaw firm in DC or NYC AND you're in the bottom of HLS, you should re-evaluate your goals haha

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Re: Harvard 3Ls Without Job Prospects

Postby generals10 » Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:15 pm

DoubleChecks wrote:
generals10 wrote:I've talked to a couple students at each of HYS recently, and while the general feeling is still that the overwhelming majority of HLS students are fine, I have heard a anecdotal accounts of no-offered 3Ls and 2Ls who struck out at OCI. I haven't heard this at all from YLS and SLS students--a Yalie said something along the lines of "everyone at Yale and Stanford who wanted a firm job still got one, even if they were choosing from among significantly fewer options than they would have in boom years, or had to take a firm they weren't crazy about...This wasn't the case at Harvard." That person (and a couple of others that I talked to) attributed this to the class size and more generous grade-reform systems (i.e. practically no one at YS is carrying around even a single Low Pass) that shield the bottom third of the class.

Of course, this doesn't mean that there aren't unemployed 3Ls or scrambling 2Ls at Stanford/Yale (I would be shocked if there weren't at least a couple at SLS, if only due to bad bidding strategy or horrible interviewing skills), but it suggests that they are at least a lot less visible than at HLS, to a degree that probably isn't accounted for by the fact that Harvard has a greater pool to exhibit. Grain of salt--small sample, great potential for bias, etc.--but that's what I've been told.


well id imagine HLS 3L's no offered would be more visible from an anecdotal standpoint since there are 550 HLS students a yr lol.



When I wrote, "to a degree that probably isn't accounted for by the fact that Harvard has a greater pool to exhibit", I was trying to convey that the difference in the number and visibility of no-offers, etc. seemed to be greater than simply that which one would expect simply from the much larger class size. Probably could have worded that better. But everything else you say seems to make a lot of sense, and meshes with what I've been hearing as well. Can't wait to re-hash this topic 100 times at ASW in a few days...

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ConMan345
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Re: Harvard 3Ls Without Job Prospects

Postby ConMan345 » Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:16 pm

The Brainalist wrote:
ConMan345 wrote:
I do! More than one, so they exist, at the very least. Also, I talked to a hiring partner in the Bay Area who said that he doesn't see an appreciable difference in the number of HLS alums versus the number of SLS alums in the area (high CA self-selection + small class = low CA self-selection + big, big class) (roughly, and only anecdotally, of course)


Awesome. Both relieving and unsettling. Can you tell us more about the jobless 3Ls at Stanford?


They're friends/SOs of friends, so I'm short on details. The competence (in terms of grades, etc.) seems to be surprisingly well-distributed, at least as I've heard secondhand, which seems to suggest that it was more a smattering of no-offers based mostly on where people worked (perhaps their work ethic?) rather than, say, the bottom of the class getting hacked off. In other words, work hard, play the game, do your best, and chances are you'll be fine.

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TheLuckyOne
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Re: Harvard 3Ls Without Job Prospects

Postby TheLuckyOne » Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:16 pm

LOL as I said before: it's not where you go (I'm talking about HYS here), but what you are. It's that simple.

When it comes to HYS, it's a lot about self-selection, Yalies tend not to be that interested in $$$$$$$, hence, they may be totally fine having taken some not-so-good opportunity or just work at some small non-profit for a while.

Harvard tends to attract lots of assholes with money-frenzy in their minds. These graduates are not Ok with making $120 because they are ENTITLED to $160+bonus or that they have to do nothing to find a job since they are supposed to be sought after. Thus, they are sitting there waiting for manna from heaven.

I would still choose Harvard over any other school without any hesitation. That statistics tells me nothing since I know nothing about personalities of those who are left offers-less.

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DoubleChecks
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Re: Harvard 3Ls Without Job Prospects

Postby DoubleChecks » Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:21 pm

generals10 wrote:
DoubleChecks wrote:
generals10 wrote:I've talked to a couple students at each of HYS recently, and while the general feeling is still that the overwhelming majority of HLS students are fine, I have heard a anecdotal accounts of no-offered 3Ls and 2Ls who struck out at OCI. I haven't heard this at all from YLS and SLS students--a Yalie said something along the lines of "everyone at Yale and Stanford who wanted a firm job still got one, even if they were choosing from among significantly fewer options than they would have in boom years, or had to take a firm they weren't crazy about...This wasn't the case at Harvard." That person (and a couple of others that I talked to) attributed this to the class size and more generous grade-reform systems (i.e. practically no one at YS is carrying around even a single Low Pass) that shield the bottom third of the class.

Of course, this doesn't mean that there aren't unemployed 3Ls or scrambling 2Ls at Stanford/Yale (I would be shocked if there weren't at least a couple at SLS, if only due to bad bidding strategy or horrible interviewing skills), but it suggests that they are at least a lot less visible than at HLS, to a degree that probably isn't accounted for by the fact that Harvard has a greater pool to exhibit. Grain of salt--small sample, great potential for bias, etc.--but that's what I've been told.


well id imagine HLS 3L's no offered would be more visible from an anecdotal standpoint since there are 550 HLS students a yr lol.



When I wrote, "to a degree that probably isn't accounted for by the fact that Harvard has a greater pool to exhibit", I was trying to convey that the difference in the number and visibility of no-offers, etc. seemed to be greater than simply that which one would expect simply from the much larger class size. Probably could have worded that better. But everything else you say seems to make a lot of sense, and meshes with what I've been hearing as well. Can't wait to re-hash this topic 100 times at ASW in a few days...


haha yes i realized what you meant by that sentence, i just had to comment regardless :P

TheLuckyOne wrote:LOL as I said before: it's not where you go (I'm talking about HYS here), but what you are. It's that simple.

When it comes to HYS, it's a lot about self-selection, Yalies tend not to be that interested in $$$$$$$, hence, they may be totally fine having taken some not-so-good opportunity or just work at some small non-profit for a while.

Harvard tends to attract lots of assholes with money-frenzy in their minds. These graduates are not Ok with making $120 because they are ENTITLED to $160+bonus or that they have to do nothing to find a job since they are supposed to be sought after. Thus, they are sitting there waiting for manna from heaven.

I would still choose Harvard over any other school without any hesitation. That statistics tells me nothing since I know nothing about personalities of those who are left offers-less.


damn straight i want my 160k! haha jk, im seriously starting to consider paths that dont lead to eventual biglaw burnout hours lol

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Re: Harvard 3Ls Without Job Prospects

Postby MellonCollie » Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:24 pm

generals10 wrote:


When I wrote, "to a degree that probably isn't accounted for by the fact that Harvard has a greater pool to exhibit", I was trying to convey that the difference in the number and visibility of no-offers, etc. seemed to be greater than simply that which one would expect simply from the much larger class size. Probably could have worded that better. But everything else you say seems to make a lot of sense, and meshes with what I've been hearing as well. Can't wait to re-hash this topic 100 times at ASW in a few days...


I sincerely hope not.

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adameus
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Re: Harvard 3Ls Without Job Prospects

Postby adameus » Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:26 pm

I think if you are in at one of the top 3 and you are half decent at an interview, you should be fine. The guy/girl who wrote that article seems like a silver spoon fed, spoiled brat, and that's most likely why he didn't get a job and isn't willing to lower his expectations.

coherentowst
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Re: Harvard 3Ls Without Job Prospects

Postby coherentowst » Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:42 pm

Meh. Someone at Yale may be able to coast to a job with a little more ease than a Harvard student, but that doesn't mean much in the end. Someone who plans on coasting isn't going to make it for long in the current environment, whatever their pedigree. I can't say I've heard of any jobless Yale 3Ls, but I've heard of a number of Yale grads who wound up in doc review after a few years. Anyone who goes to Harvard and works hard will be able to achieve or earn as much as a reasonable person could want.

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Re: Harvard 3Ls Without Job Prospects

Postby Renzo » Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:45 pm

coherentowst wrote: I can't say I've heard of any jobless Yale 3Ls, but I've heard of a number of Yale grads who wound up in doc review after a few years.

This is hard to believe. Why would anyone do doc review (assuming you mean contract work, not the kind of doc review noob associates get stuck with all the time) when they could go walk puppies at the animal shelter and have their loans forgiven?

coherentowst
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Re: Harvard 3Ls Without Job Prospects

Postby coherentowst » Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:50 pm

Dunno. It's possible they chose to do it, obviously. I'm just saying that even if Yale gives you a free pass to a top-notch first job, clerkship, etc., that is not a guarantee of where you'll end up. Everyone is going to have to work their ass off once out of school.
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