Brooklyn and BigLaw

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Terp22
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Brooklyn and BigLaw

Postby Terp22 » Mon Mar 01, 2010 1:32 pm

Anyone know what to think of this, as someone who is considering BLS for 2010-11?

Law School Reports Nearly 20% of Class of 2009 Hired by the Top 250 Firms

Brooklyn Law School’s graduates are consistently recruited by the top law firms in the nation. Of our graduating Class of 2009, nearly 20% were hired as first-year associates by the top 250 law firms. However, this week’s issue of the National Law Journal, and its website, which highlighted law schools with the highest percentage of graduates hired by NLJ top 250 firms, omitted Brooklyn Law School from its “Go-To-School” rankings.

According to the data that we collect and submit to the National Association for Law Placement, as of September 1, 2009, 99 members of the Brooklyn Law School Class of 2009 had been hired as first-year associates by the NLJ top 250 firms. This means that Brooklyn Law School should have been ranked number 31 among the top 50 law schools. This ranking is more consistent with a 2008 Leiter study that ranked Brooklyn Law School fourth in New York City for the number of graduates hired as new lawyers by 15 of the nation’s super elite law firms.

Go to http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2008job_biglaw.shtml


http://www.brooklaw.edu/NewsAndEvents/N ... -2010.aspx?

jegnyr
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Re: Brooklyn and BigLaw

Postby jegnyr » Mon Mar 01, 2010 7:57 pm

Terp22 wrote:Anyone know what to think of this, as someone who is considering BLS for 2010-11?

Law School Reports Nearly 20% of Class of 2009 Hired by the Top 250 Firms

Brooklyn Law School’s graduates are consistently recruited by the top law firms in the nation. Of our graduating Class of 2009, nearly 20% were hired as first-year associates by the top 250 law firms. However, this week’s issue of the National Law Journal, and its website, which highlighted law schools with the highest percentage of graduates hired by NLJ top 250 firms, omitted Brooklyn Law School from its “Go-To-School” rankings.

According to the data that we collect and submit to the National Association for Law Placement, as of September 1, 2009, 99 members of the Brooklyn Law School Class of 2009 had been hired as first-year associates by the NLJ top 250 firms. This means that Brooklyn Law School should have been ranked number 31 among the top 50 law schools. This ranking is more consistent with a 2008 Leiter study that ranked Brooklyn Law School fourth in New York City for the number of graduates hired as new lawyers by 15 of the nation’s super elite law firms.

Go to http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2008job_biglaw.shtml


http://www.brooklaw.edu/NewsAndEvents/N ... -2010.aspx?




Thanks for the link. Considering BLS myself but am concerned about being behind so many great schools in the NY mkt.

erniesto
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Re: Brooklyn and BigLaw

Postby erniesto » Mon Mar 01, 2010 10:57 pm

I'm visiting BLS tomorrow. If I have the time and memory I'll ask about it.

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nealric
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Re: Brooklyn and BigLaw

Postby nealric » Mon Mar 01, 2010 11:24 pm

Anyone know what to think of this, as someone who is considering BLS for 2010-11?


Just FYI: a few of the firms in the NLJ 250 are really regional midlaw firms. I would also caution that the V100 numbers were less than 5% even in the boom years, and that things have fallen off a cliff since than 2009 rankings.

All this is not to say that Brooklyn is an awful school, but that its a very bad idea to bank on biglaw if you go there.

dreman510
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Re: Brooklyn and BigLaw

Postby dreman510 » Mon Mar 01, 2010 11:25 pm

Haha, im a BLS 1L, and I saw them post that prominently last week. Couldnt help but laugh...

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ZXCVBNM
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Re: Brooklyn and BigLaw

Postby ZXCVBNM » Mon Mar 01, 2010 11:32 pm

Brooklyn and Biglaw shouldn't really be used in the same sentence right now. Just to put things in perspective you can't bank on biglaw at columbia or nyu right now much less fordham and much more less brooklyn or cardozo. If you are happy with other opportunities then go to brooklyn but don't invest large sums of money when you need to graduate top 10% to even have a shot.

dreman510
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Re: Brooklyn and BigLaw

Postby dreman510 » Mon Mar 01, 2010 11:53 pm

ZXCVBNM wrote:Brooklyn and Biglaw shouldn't really be used in the same sentence right now. Just to put things in perspective you can't bank on biglaw at columbia or nyu right now much less fordham and much more less brooklyn or cardozo. If you are happy with other opportunities then go to brooklyn but don't invest large sums of money when you need to graduate top 10% to even have a shot.

This. While I do enjoy BLS and am doing quite well, I also want to do patent. Of the 2L's ive spoken to, the only one's who got jobs at OCI are patent people (and they are all in top 20%)

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Stringer Bell
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Re: Brooklyn and BigLaw

Postby Stringer Bell » Mon Mar 01, 2010 11:57 pm

http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/law%20schools_charts_page12.pdf

This is class of 2009 and BLS isn't even on this list (the lowest % listed was 13.2%).

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RVP11
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Re: Brooklyn and BigLaw

Postby RVP11 » Tue Mar 02, 2010 10:38 pm

Stringer Bell wrote:http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/law%20schools_charts_page12.pdf

This is class of 2009 and BLS isn't even on this list (the lowest % listed was 13.2%).


Way to not read the OP?

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RVP11
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Re: Brooklyn and BigLaw

Postby RVP11 » Tue Mar 02, 2010 10:41 pm

nealric wrote:
Anyone know what to think of this, as someone who is considering BLS for 2010-11?


Just FYI: a few of the firms in the NLJ 250 are really regional midlaw firms. I would also caution that the V100 numbers were less than 5% even in the boom years, and that things have fallen off a cliff since than 2009 rankings.


Uncredited post.

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Stringer Bell
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Re: Brooklyn and BigLaw

Postby Stringer Bell » Wed Mar 03, 2010 1:02 am

JSUVA2012 wrote:
Stringer Bell wrote:http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/law%20schools_charts_page12.pdf

This is class of 2009 and BLS isn't even on this list (the lowest % listed was 13.2%).


Way to not read the OP?


Yeah I blew that one. I just glanced at the hyperlink and thought that it was referencing 2008 data. My apologies to OP and BLS for the laziness of my post.

erniesto
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Re: Brooklyn and BigLaw

Postby erniesto » Wed Mar 03, 2010 10:35 am

I spoke with a student at BLS when I visited. The concensus is that you can do well but that big firm placement is not guaranteed. This student in particular did OCI in 2008 and recieved an offer for a local big firm at market rate but was deferred and will be clerking in the mean time. They said their gpa was top 1/3 but that nowAdays you have to have top 15-20% to be considered. This person had nothng to do with patent law either.

Pretty much adds support to BLS's claims.

Flanker1067
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Re: Brooklyn and BigLaw

Postby Flanker1067 » Wed Mar 03, 2010 10:43 am

This is weird though. Was this an oversight, or possibly they found that the "data we collect and submit" inadequate somehow?
Or is the NLJ trolling?

Mr. Pablo
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Re: Brooklyn and BigLaw

Postby Mr. Pablo » Wed Mar 03, 2010 5:34 pm

Flanker1067 wrote:This is weird though. Was this an oversight, or possibly they found that the "data we collect and submit" inadequate somehow?
Or is the NLJ trolling?

I would be willing to wager a nickle that whomever edits that NLJ list 'made an error of oversight' in leaving BLS off the list in the same way that BLS 'made an error of oversight' in not reporting both its FT/PT#s (we all remember that debacle last year?) to USNews/whomever USnews gets its info from.
I would wager an additional nickle that the two are related.

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reasonable_man
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Re: Brooklyn and BigLaw

Postby reasonable_man » Wed Mar 03, 2010 5:46 pm

20% in NYLJ250.... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


Man I needed that.

dreman510
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Re: Brooklyn and BigLaw

Postby dreman510 » Wed Mar 03, 2010 5:53 pm

reasonable_man wrote:20% in NYLJ250.... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


Man I needed that.

I was waiting for you, reasonable_man!

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bludvl_prelaw
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Re: Brooklyn and BigLaw

Postby bludvl_prelaw » Sun Mar 14, 2010 5:39 am

Sorry, but why is this so funny? BLS is one of my top choices, and seeing these numbers was encouraging. Are they inflated or something?

blsingindisguise
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Re: Brooklyn and BigLaw

Postby blsingindisguise » Sun Mar 14, 2010 9:50 am

Actually 20% for 2009 is totally plausible. The problem is that for 2010 it's going to be lower and for 2011 (my class) it's going to be even lower than that. About 2-3% of 2011 got any kind of law firm job out of OCI, and based on that I'd guess that maybe 5-8% are going to wind up at NLJ 250 firms on graduating even if there's a little extra hiring next year.

20% is a number that came out of a time that was still near the peak of biglaw hiring, a peak that probably won't return for decades if at all.

The other problem is that you need to face that even a 20% chance wouldn't really be that good a shot. It means you have an 80% chance of doing either public interest, government, low-paying ID-type work, doc review or just unemployment.

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A'nold
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Re: Brooklyn and BigLaw

Postby A'nold » Sun Mar 14, 2010 4:07 pm

I've never understood all of the Brooklyn hate on this site. Cardozo gets a free pass compared to Brooklyn (even though there are critics of both) on here for some reason. I've known people to get crazy awesome jobs from Brooklyn and it places really well for its rank if you think about it. If you are there on $$ or above, I don't really see why it gets all of this hate. Sure, a 10% chance at the job you want is not great, but that's the situation many of us find ourselves in in most of the schools across the country. I get that NYC is very oversaturated, but I mean if you are willing to take a risk at a lower ranked school, this one (once again w/ $$ or above) seems like a good choice, actually.

dreman510
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Re: Brooklyn and BigLaw

Postby dreman510 » Sun Mar 14, 2010 11:48 pm

A'nold wrote:I've never understood all of the Brooklyn hate on this site. Cardozo gets a free pass compared to Brooklyn (even though there are critics of both) on here for some reason. I've known people to get crazy awesome jobs from Brooklyn and it places really well for its rank if you think about it. If you are there on $$ or above, I don't really see why it gets all of this hate. Sure, a 10% chance at the job you want is not great, but that's the situation many of us find ourselves in in most of the schools across the country. I get that NYC is very oversaturated, but I mean if you are willing to take a risk at a lower ranked school, this one (once again w/ $$ or above) seems like a good choice, actually.

+1, 'Dozo also has the same rumors of section stacking, and places similar numbers into biglaw. I chose BLS over Dozo because of better $$$, but I have no disillusions of what my odds are...

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bludvl_prelaw
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Re: Brooklyn and BigLaw

Postby bludvl_prelaw » Mon Mar 15, 2010 3:56 am

blsingindisguise wrote:Actually 20% for 2009 is totally plausible. The problem is that for 2010 it's going to be lower and for 2011 (my class) it's going to be even lower than that. About 2-3% of 2011 got any kind of law firm job out of OCI, and based on that I'd guess that maybe 5-8% are going to wind up at NLJ 250 firms on graduating even if there's a little extra hiring next year.

20% is a number that came out of a time that was still near the peak of biglaw hiring, a peak that probably won't return for decades if at all.

The other problem is that you need to face that even a 20% chance wouldn't really be that good a shot. It means you have an 80% chance of doing either public interest, government, low-paying ID-type work, doc review or just unemployment.


What about working for a smaller, non-NLJ 250 firm? I absolutely refuse to believe that if you go to BLS and don't land a biglaw job, you're relegated to a miserable existence making 45K/yr.

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JusticeHarlan
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Re: Brooklyn and BigLaw

Postby JusticeHarlan » Mon Mar 15, 2010 10:25 am

bludvl_prelaw wrote:
blsingindisguise wrote:Actually 20% for 2009 is totally plausible. The problem is that for 2010 it's going to be lower and for 2011 (my class) it's going to be even lower than that. About 2-3% of 2011 got any kind of law firm job out of OCI, and based on that I'd guess that maybe 5-8% are going to wind up at NLJ 250 firms on graduating even if there's a little extra hiring next year.

20% is a number that came out of a time that was still near the peak of biglaw hiring, a peak that probably won't return for decades if at all.

The other problem is that you need to face that even a 20% chance wouldn't really be that good a shot. It means you have an 80% chance of doing either public interest, government, low-paying ID-type work, doc review or just unemployment.


What about working for a smaller, non-NLJ 250 firm? I absolutely refuse to believe that if you go to BLS and don't land a biglaw job, you're relegated to a miserable existence making 45K/yr.

For the class of 2008 (who placed before things got bad):

http://www.brooklaw.edu/Careers/Employm ... ctice.aspx
http://www.brooklaw.edu/Careers/Employm ... alary.aspx

About a quarter of the class got jobs of 100+ lawyer sized firms and making $150k or so. The rest of the group in private practice was making $60-75k/year.

The fact is, there is a huge drop off in salary. The median salary for those in firms between 51-100 lawyers is half the median salary for firms of 101-250, $75k/year versus $150k/year. And only a vanishingly small percentage of the class was in the 51-100 range; most of those who didn't get 'Big Law' were making ~$60k.

And that's before factoring in 1) this was before the economy tanked 2) the ones who finished at the bottom of the class and didn't get any job 3) only 78% of those with private practice jobs reported their salary.

If you're comfortable with the fact you could be making $65k a year while living in New York City and (depending on your situation) paying off a sizable student debt, then you can be happy at BLS. But to count on making a salary below market rate but above $65k is something the numbers just don't show.

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OperaSoprano
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Re: Brooklyn and BigLaw

Postby OperaSoprano » Mon Mar 15, 2010 12:54 pm

I am not a BLS student, but I can shed some light on the NLJ250 numbers. I was up at my own admissions office, and the conversation turned to the latest NLJ250 numbers. The NLJ250 hasn't reported its response rate, and schools have done some detective work of their own (ie: calling firms and asking if their recent hires were reported to the NLJ.) Without an actual response rate, it's hard to know how much spin is involved. Many schools have abysmally low response rates, but at least they generally tell us what those rates are.

I am concerned about the 78% in private practice at BLS who reported salary numbers. While 78% is definitely better than what some schools are reporting (I have seen percentages in the 40s, and even lower), it's not exactly a standard of transparency. If Vandy and Duke can get at or near 100% compliance, and Fordham can get 95% in private practice, and 93% overall to report salary data (room for improvement, but reasonable performance), better accountability is possible.

I want to make it clear that I am not singling out BLS, because it is not the worst offender here. (I wasn't happy about the PT debacle in USNews, but that topic has been run into the ground, and the school got plenty of grief for it already.) Both BLS and Cardozo attach GPA requirements to most of their scholarships (a reprehensible practice that has caused people to lose their scholly money), but for those students who get guaranteed funding, and who plan to pursue local government or PI work, all hope is not lost. To echo what my classmate and the Brooklyn students said, it's all about having realistic expectations. That's true here, there, and basically all around the town at the moment.

Also, Reasonable Man always makes me smile.

dreman510
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Re: Brooklyn and BigLaw

Postby dreman510 » Mon Mar 15, 2010 12:58 pm

OperaSoprano wrote:Also, Reasonable Man always makes me smile.

+1
I agree its about reasonable expectations, which is why I BELIEVE there shouldnt be any significant difference in expectations between BLS and Cardozo

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OperaSoprano
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Re: Brooklyn and BigLaw

Postby OperaSoprano » Mon Mar 15, 2010 1:13 pm

dreman510 wrote:
OperaSoprano wrote:Also, Reasonable Man always makes me smile.

+1
I agree its about reasonable expectations, which is why I BELIEVE there shouldnt be any significant difference in expectations between BLS and Cardozo


I wondered about this too, to be honest. In 2005, both schools had substantially equal placement, then it seemed as if Cardozo had pulled ahead a lot, if BLS wasn't even on the list. Without the NLJ's response rates, I hesitate to conclude anything. I had previously trusted those numbers (even above what my own school published), but inconsistencies abound, and I don't know whose statistics to believe. Talking to students off the record is the best thing we can do to stay informed-- people have been refreshingly honest.




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