Top Law Schools

Hey everyone:

This is one of my first posts and I need some advice. I am currently an Undergraduate at a NYC school so my family, my friends and my support network is here in the city and in NJ. I have been accepted at both Michigan and Cornell and will probably pay sticker for both. I want to practice in NYC, NJ, or DC. I’m not sure if I want to do Big law although I probably will have to for some years to pay back some of that debt. In the end I would like to end up in some sort of public interest work either government or not. These are the factors that are affecting me.

1. I would like to be close to home so I could come back as soon as possible if need be.
2. I want the best possible job when I graduate. For example If I have a 3.4 or 3.5 from my law school I don’t want to have to worry that I could not at least get some type of decent job.
3. I want a school that has at least some type of Minority Network in which I can feel comfortable
4. Although, everyone worries about their grades I want the least competition possible between classmates because in the end we all would go to a great school and we would all get great jobs if we work hard.
5. I want something with a strong emphasis on Public Interest.
6. I also want the strongest loan forgiveness program I could find.

Thanks for your input and I appreciate your time.

Edit: I also would like to add that I don’t really care the Michigan is ranked so much higher than Cornell. If you guys could offer me some advice as to why this should be such a deciding factor I would really appreciate it. In my mind they are both great schools and from both a student could accomplish his goals.

Ghost Writer wrote:Hey everyone:

This is one of my first posts and I need some advice. I am currently an Undergraduate at a NYC school so my family, my friends and my support network is here in the city and in NJ. I have been accepted at both Michigan and Cornell and will probably pay sticker for both. I want to practice in NYC, NJ, or DC. I’m not sure if I want to do Big law although I probably will have to for some years to pay back some of that debt. In the end I would like to end up in some sort of public interest work either government or not. These are the factors that are affecting me.

1. I would like to be close to home so I could come back as soon as possible if need be.
2. I want the best possible job when I graduate. For example ff I have a 3.4 or 3.5 from my law school I don’t want to have to worry that I could not at least get some type of decent job.
3. I want a school that has at least some type of Minority Network in which I can feel comfortable
4. Although, everyone worries about their grades I want the least competition possible between classmates because in the end we all would go to a great school and we would all get great jobs if we work hard.
5. I want something with a strong emphasis on Public Interest.
6. I also want the strongest loan forgiveness program I could find.

Thanks for your input and I appreciate your time.

I might come across as a huge jerk right now, but at some point you're going to have to grow up and make your own way in the world without a "support group." Or at least you should. It'd be good for you to go to Michigan unless you have some other issue like a mother with cancer.

I don't know how accurate it is, but I remember reading that Cornell students are highly competitive. I would recommend Michigan.

big_blue79 wrote:I don't know how accurate it is, but I remember reading that Cornell students are highly competitive. I would recommend Michigan.

Thanks. I'm going to look into this. Do you think the bigger class size at Michigan would make it a problem if your GPA was a little bit lower? For example a 3.4 at either school since Cornell has fewer students, Firms would dip deeper into the class than at Michigan?

Any takers?

Ghost Writer wrote:Any takers?

sent pm!

whitman wrote:

Ghost Writer wrote:Hey everyone:

This is one of my first posts and I need some advice. I am currently an Undergraduate at a NYC school so my family, my friends and my support network is here in the city and in NJ. I have been accepted at both Michigan and Cornell and will probably pay sticker for both. I want to practice in NYC, NJ, or DC. I’m not sure if I want to do Big law although I probably will have to for some years to pay back some of that debt. In the end I would like to end up in some sort of public interest work either government or not. These are the factors that are affecting me.

1. I would like to be close to home so I could come back as soon as possible if need be.
2. I want the best possible job when I graduate. For example ff I have a 3.4 or 3.5 from my law school I don’t want to have to worry that I could not at least get some type of decent job.
3. I want a school that has at least some type of Minority Network in which I can feel comfortable
4. Although, everyone worries about their grades I want the least competition possible between classmates because in the end we all would go to a great school and we would all get great jobs if we work hard.
5. I want something with a strong emphasis on Public Interest.
6. I also want the strongest loan forgiveness program I could find.

Thanks for your input and I appreciate your time.

I might come across as a huge jerk right now, but at some point you're going to have to grow up and make your own way in the world without a "support group." Or at least you should. It'd be good for you to go to Michigan unless you have some other issue like a mother with cancer.

yeah youre def a jerk. jk
but anyway, cornell really isnt near the city anyway....for example, i live in nyc, and if i had this decision, as far as i was concerned, cornell would have no advantage in terms of proximity to home since its really not close enough for me to just go home on a whim anyway

Ghost Writer wrote: 1. I would like to be close to home so I could come back as soon as possible if need be.
2. I want the best possible job when I graduate. For example If I have a 3.4 or 3.5 from my law school I don’t want to have to worry that I could not at least get some type of decent job.
3. I want a school that has at least some type of Minority Network in which I can feel comfortable
4. Although, everyone worries about their grades I want the least competition possible between classmates because in the end we all would go to a great school and we would all get great jobs if we work hard.
5. I want something with a strong emphasis on Public Interest.
6. I also want the strongest loan forgiveness program I could find.

1. Cornell
2. Michigan
3. Michigan?
4. Michigan
5. Michigan
6. Wash? Maybe Michigan?

All signs point to Ann Arbor unless Cornell offers cash.

itsfine wrote:

whitman wrote:

Ghost Writer wrote:Hey everyone:

This is one of my first posts and I need some advice. I am currently an Undergraduate at a NYC school so my family, my friends and my support network is here in the city and in NJ. I have been accepted at both Michigan and Cornell and will probably pay sticker for both. I want to practice in NYC, NJ, or DC. I’m not sure if I want to do Big law although I probably will have to for some years to pay back some of that debt. In the end I would like to end up in some sort of public interest work either government or not. These are the factors that are affecting me.

1. I would like to be close to home so I could come back as soon as possible if need be.
2. I want the best possible job when I graduate. For example ff I have a 3.4 or 3.5 from my law school I don’t want to have to worry that I could not at least get some type of decent job.
3. I want a school that has at least some type of Minority Network in which I can feel comfortable
4. Although, everyone worries about their grades I want the least competition possible between classmates because in the end we all would go to a great school and we would all get great jobs if we work hard.
5. I want something with a strong emphasis on Public Interest.
6. I also want the strongest loan forgiveness program I could find.

Thanks for your input and I appreciate your time.

I might come across as a huge jerk right now, but at some point you're going to have to grow up and make your own way in the world without a "support group." Or at least you should. It'd be good for you to go to Michigan unless you have some other issue like a mother with cancer.

yeah youre def a jerk. jk
but anyway, cornell really isnt near the city anyway....for example, i live in nyc, and if i had this decision, as far as i was concerned, cornell would have no advantage in terms of proximity to home since its really not close enough for me to just go home on a whim anyway

Yeah I think you might be right about this one but I was thinking I could always rent a car and drive down the 3 hours or so. But I guess in law school you dont have that type of time to spend driving.

holydonkey wrote:

Ghost Writer wrote: 1. I would like to be close to home so I could come back as soon as possible if need be.
2. I want the best possible job when I graduate. For example If I have a 3.4 or 3.5 from my law school I don’t want to have to worry that I could not at least get some type of decent job.
3. I want a school that has at least some type of Minority Network in which I can feel comfortable
4. Although, everyone worries about their grades I want the least competition possible between classmates because in the end we all would go to a great school and we would all get great jobs if we work hard.
5. I want something with a strong emphasis on Public Interest.
6. I also want the strongest loan forgiveness program I could find.

1. Cornell
2. Michigan
3. Michigan?
4. Michigan
5. Michigan
6. Wash? Maybe Michigan?

All signs point to Ann Arbor unless Cornell offers cash.

Thanks this post is actually really helpful I guess I will just have to make a pro and con's list.

Cornell is supposed to be notoriously competitive. That's just what I've heard, I don't have any facts to back it up.

What I CAN say is that Michigan doesn't rank students until after graduation, and they don't allow employers to screen for interviews by grades, so I think those factors would really REALLY help reduce the pressure/competition.

Cornell might be a little stronger in the NYC market, but I'm not even super confident on that statement, since Mich has pretty great placement in all the major markets.

I haven't looked into Mich's LRAP program yet. I'm going to their ASW in a few weeks and I'm planning to ask about it then.

Congrats on having this choice to make!

Michigan, because it's pretty much better in every way including clerkship placement, biglaw placement (check the 2009 biglaw thread), and PI placement. Michigan's LRAP is also better because it is income based and ANY legal job qualifies for LRAP, not just public interest or government. Cornell has the heaviest amount of graded units (16) each semester out of any top 14 school. A study showed that its students on average study the most out of any top 14 school (6+ hours a day). Its legal practice is graded while at Michigan legal practice is pass/fail.

irishman86 wrote:Michigan, because it's pretty much better in every way including clerkship placement, biglaw placement (check the 2009 biglaw thread), and PI placement. Michigan's LRAP is also better because it is income based and ANY legal job qualifies for LRAP, not just public interest or government. Cornell has the heaviest amount of graded units (16) each semester out of any top 14 school. A study showed that its students on average study the most out of any top 14 school (6+ hours a day). Its legal practice is graded while at Michigan legal practice is pass/fail.

A little off topic, but that study/survey thing always puzzled me a bit. I've had quite a few Cornell law students tell me they thought it was a load of crap. The thing is that thing was a self-reporting survey as far as I know. So either they actually were studying a crazy number of hours or they just SAID they studied a crazy number of hours. Anyway, strange.

Based on the OPs criteria, I would say U of M is the better pick (and obviously I am VERY BIASED), BUT I would also say that he/she should visit both schools and make an informed decision that way. I think that visiting schools is a critical ingredient to making an informed decision. If these are really the two schools the OP has narrowed it down to, the OP should most definitely visit both.

For balance, I will say I went to Cornell for grad school and I have to say I really liked it. I don't have any real insight as to what it's like to go to law school there, but the law students I met there were all very nice. I enjoyed Ithaca a lot as well.

roxj wrote:Cornell is supposed to be notoriously competitive. That's just what I've heard, I don't have any facts to back it up.

What I CAN say is that Michigan doesn't rank students until after graduation, and they don't allow employers to screen for interviews by grades, so I think those factors would really REALLY help reduce the pressure/competition.

Cornell might be a little stronger in the NYC market, but I'm not even super confident on that statement, since Mich has pretty great placement in all the major markets.

I haven't looked into Mich's LRAP program yet. I'm going to their ASW in a few weeks and I'm planning to ask about it then.

Congrats on having this choice to make!

Michigan not ranking students until after graduation is pretty cool and the not allowing employers to screen for interviews by grades should deff be an added bonus for OCI. Since, Im looking for the best education, yet dont want to be annoyed by this constant competitiveness Michigan might be the winning choice on this criteria.

Are you going to the first ASW or the second?

Thank you very much and also congrats on Michigan!

awesomepossum wrote:

irishman86 wrote:Michigan, because it's pretty much better in every way including clerkship placement, biglaw placement (check the 2009 biglaw thread), and PI placement. Michigan's LRAP is also better because it is income based and ANY legal job qualifies for LRAP, not just public interest or government. Cornell has the heaviest amount of graded units (16) each semester out of any top 14 school. A study showed that its students on average study the most out of any top 14 school (6+ hours a day). Its legal practice is graded while at Michigan legal practice is pass/fail.

A little off topic, but that study/survey thing always puzzled me a bit. I've had quite a few Cornell law students tell me they thought it was a load of crap. The thing is that thing was a self-reporting survey as far as I know. So either they actually were studying a crazy number of hours or they just SAID they studied a crazy number of hours. Anyway, strange.

Based on the OPs criteria, I would say U of M is the better pick (and obviously I am VERY BIASED), BUT I would also say that he/she should visit both schools and make an informed decision that way. I think that visiting schools is a critical ingredient to making an informed decision. If these are really the two schools the OP has narrowed it down to, the OP should most definitely visit both.

For balance, I will say I went to Cornell for grad school and I have to say I really liked it. I don't have any real insight as to what it's like to go to law school there, but the law students I met there were all very nice. I enjoyed Ithaca a lot as well.

Thank you very much. I don’t have a problem studying 6 hours I just have a problem with studying so much to then have a very competitive environment to deal with on top of that even though we are all at a top school.

I will visit both and hopefully this will help me as well.

At least it will also give me a chance to ask a question about the loan forgiveness program.

roxj wrote:Cornell is supposed to be notoriously competitive. That's just what I've heard, I don't have any facts to back it up.

What I CAN say is that Michigan doesn't rank students until after graduation, and they don't allow employers to screen for interviews by grades, so I think those factors would really REALLY help reduce the pressure/competition.

Cornell might be a little stronger in the NYC market, but I'm not even super confident on that statement, since Mich has pretty great placement in all the major markets.

I haven't looked into Mich's LRAP program yet. I'm going to their ASW in a few weeks and I'm planning to ask about it then.

Congrats on having this choice to make!

Do you not have a GPA until you graduate? Because if you do, it seems employers are still going to be able to tell how you are doing.

While there are advantages to the no pre screening aspect, I wonder if there could be a possible disadvantage as well. If your numbers/resume aren't going to be enough for someone, it might be better to get eliminated before wasting an interview. In my last semester of UG I got selected for alot of on campus interviews because I probably had one of the 25 best resumes for the 25 or so slots that were usually available, but I was definitely closer to the bottom of that group. I got no callbacks and I really think it was due to my credentials as opposed to my interviewing skills. I even had one interview that I felt I really knocked out of the park where my interviewer said she wanted to bring me in for a follow up. I got a call two days later saying they just couldn't get past my GPA. Getting experience interviewing was helpful in landing a job later though.

There are much better sources than me, but at a glance Michigan's LRAP looked pretty solid.

I am Cornell UG and I have a ton of fiends in the law school. I have been told it is NOT competitive.

As far as the longer hours of studying goes, there are multiple explanations for it. First, it's Ithaca, there is nothing else to do but study. Second, Cornell has "lower quality" students based on LSAT and GPA but the school tries to teach at a level higher that. To illustrate, say Cornell and Columbia teach the same exact things in the same way but Cornell's students have a lower ability. It would make sense that they would have to study harder than Columbia students to learn the same material. Third, it's Ithaca and there really is nothing to do but study in the winter. When it's warm the place is an outdoor person's heaven, however.

Are you looking at sticker at both places OP? If you are then there are obvious factors in favor of Michigan, however if money is involved it becomes a different story.

I think if you were to get money from Cornell it would make this a little bit more even based on your geographical preferences.

swc65 wrote:I am Cornell UG and I have a ton of fiends in the law school. I have been told it is NOT competitive.

As far as the longer hours of studying goes, there are multiple explanations for it. First, it's Ithaca, there is nothing else to do but study. Second, Cornell has "lower quality" students based on LSAT and GPA but the school tries to teach at a level higher that. To illustrate, say Cornell and Columbia teach the same exact things in the same way but Cornell's students have a lower ability. It would make sense that they would have to study harder than Columbia students to learn the same material. Third, it's Ithaca and there really is nothing to do but study in the winter. When it's warm the place is an outdoor person's heaven, however.

Hold up, hold up..... so the argument is that Cornell students are stupider so it takes them longer to understand things?

Uhhhhh.........no.

awesomepossum wrote:

swc65 wrote:I am Cornell UG and I have a ton of fiends in the law school. I have been told it is NOT competitive.

As far as the longer hours of studying goes, there are multiple explanations for it. First, it's Ithaca, there is nothing else to do but study. Second, Cornell has "lower quality" students based on LSAT and GPA but the school tries to teach at a level higher that. To illustrate, say Cornell and Columbia teach the same exact things in the same way but Cornell's students have a lower ability. It would make sense that they would have to study harder than Columbia students to learn the same material. Third, it's Ithaca and there really is nothing to do but study in the winter. When it's warm the place is an outdoor person's heaven, however.

Hold up, hold up..... so the argument is that Cornell students are stupider so it takes them longer to understand things?

Uhhhhh.........no.

Well I am just telling you what the interviewer AT CORNELL told me when I asked him about it. I don't think the explanation is all that bad though.

swc65 wrote:

awesomepossum wrote:

swc65 wrote:I am Cornell UG and I have a ton of fiends in the law school. I have been told it is NOT competitive.

As far as the longer hours of studying goes, there are multiple explanations for it. First, it's Ithaca, there is nothing else to do but study. Second, Cornell has "lower quality" students based on LSAT and GPA but the school tries to teach at a level higher that. To illustrate, say Cornell and Columbia teach the same exact things in the same way but Cornell's students have a lower ability. It would make sense that they would have to study harder than Columbia students to learn the same material. Third, it's Ithaca and there really is nothing to do but study in the winter. When it's warm the place is an outdoor person's heaven, however.

Hold up, hold up..... so the argument is that Cornell students are stupider so it takes them longer to understand things?

Uhhhhh.........no.

Well I am just telling you what the interviewer AT CORNELL told me when I asked him about it. I don't think the explanation is all that bad though.

Ha, if that's true, that's epic.

WOW. I hope that isn't the school's official position.

Well, that's not exactly what he said. I asked about the report that showed Cornell students studied way more than their peers. He responded by saying something along the lines of Cornell has trouble attracting higher quality applicants but the school does not want to adjust its teaching to its applicant/class pool.


Besides it completely makes sense that if school A and school B teach the same things but school B's class is below the 25%tile of school A's, then school B students would have to study more to get the material. That might, in part, explain the difference between the number of hours the students at each school spend studying.

swc65 wrote:Well, that's not exactly what he said. I asked about the report that showed Cornell students studied way more than their peers. He responded by saying something along the lines of Cornell has trouble attracting higher quality applicants but the school does not want to adjust its teaching to its applicant/class pool.


Besides it completely makes sense that if school A and school B team the same things but school B's class is below the 25%tile of school A's, then school B students would have to study more to get the material. That might, in part, explain the difference bewtween the number of hours the students at each school spend studying.

So bottom line Cornell students do study more than everybody else?

swc65 wrote:Well, that's not exactly what he said. I asked about the report that showed Cornell students studied way more than their peers. He responded by saying something along the lines of Cornell has trouble attracting higher quality applicants but the school does not want to adjust its teaching to its applicant/class pool.


Besides it completely makes sense that if school A and school B team the same things but school B's class is below the 25%tile of school A's, then school B students would have to study more to get the material. That might, in part, explain the difference bewtween the number of hours the students at each school spend studying.

I just really don't buy this. I refuse to believe that a difference in 3 or 4 LSAT points truly shows some grand divide in intelligence that makes students who score 167 or 168 incapable of quickly understanding things in the way that 171 and 172 students can.