Choose between USC, WUSTL, Emory, UIUC, and W&M

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Which would you choose (not based on COA or scholarship)?

W&M
10
7%
USC
70
48%
WUSTL
39
27%
Emory
17
12%
UIUC
11
7%
 
Total votes: 147

musicfor18
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Re: USC vs. W&M vs. WUSTL

Postby musicfor18 » Mon Mar 01, 2010 7:12 pm

Lawhawk, please edit your post to fix the quote mishap. You're missing a [quote] at the very beginning. Thanks!

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1800calturk
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Re: USC vs. W&M vs. WUSTL

Postby 1800calturk » Tue Mar 02, 2010 3:43 am

I don't think WUSTL is really that much on the rise, and it doesn't "dominate" the midwest since it faces healthy competition. I disagree that the OP should think about where he already has connections, you can build those connections, and like everyone said, these schools all have a solid regional influence. Where do you want to BE is the real question.

I can say, for instance, that WUSTL doesn't seem to have a strong hold out here in Cali, just as I'm sure a USC degree is worth less in Missouri.

irishman86
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Re: USC vs. W&M vs. WUSTL

Postby irishman86 » Tue Mar 02, 2010 3:55 am

lawhawk wrote: USC and I think it's kind of obvious. Only school there that dominates its market and it's only the #2 market in the US. Although I guess WUSTL dominates St Louis/Kansas City?


It doesn't really dominate the market considering quite a few T14 students from everywhere and UCLA grads work in LA.
LA is also FAR FROM the number 2 market in the US. NYC, DC, and Chicago are the top 3 markets in the US. I have no idea why you think LA can even compare with those 3 markets.

keg411
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Re: USC vs. W&M vs. WUSTL

Postby keg411 » Tue Mar 02, 2010 9:24 am

irishman86 wrote:
lawhawk wrote: USC and I think it's kind of obvious. Only school there that dominates its market and it's only the #2 market in the US. Although I guess WUSTL dominates St Louis/Kansas City?


It doesn't really dominate the market considering quite a few T14 students from everywhere and UCLA grads work in LA.
LA is also FAR FROM the number 2 market in the US. NYC, DC, and Chicago are the top 3 markets in the US. I have no idea why you think LA can even compare with those 3 markets.


Are you talking about actual market size or LEGAL markets? I don't know about the latter, but LA is the #2 media market in the US.

1. NY
2. LA
3. Chicago
4. Philadelphia
5. Dallas

DC is down at #9.

amped
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Re: USC vs. W&M vs. WUSTL

Postby amped » Tue Mar 02, 2010 12:59 pm

keg411 wrote:
irishman86 wrote:
lawhawk wrote: USC and I think it's kind of obvious. Only school there that dominates its market and it's only the #2 market in the US. Although I guess WUSTL dominates St Louis/Kansas City?


It doesn't really dominate the market considering quite a few T14 students from everywhere and UCLA grads work in LA.
LA is also FAR FROM the number 2 market in the US. NYC, DC, and Chicago are the top 3 markets in the US. I have no idea why you think LA can even compare with those 3 markets.


Are you talking about actual market size or LEGAL markets? I don't know about the latter, but LA is the #2 media market in the US.

1. NY
2. LA
3. Chicago
4. Philadelphia
5. Dallas

DC is down at #9.


He's probably referring to legal markets as we are law students. The size of the media market seems irrelevant when talking about potential job opportunities in the legal sector.

amped
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Re: USC vs. W&M vs. WUSTL

Postby amped » Tue Mar 02, 2010 1:05 pm

1800calturk wrote:I don't think WUSTL is really that much on the rise, and it doesn't "dominate" the midwest since it faces healthy competition. I disagree that the OP should think about where he already has connections, you can build those connections, and like everyone said, these schools all have a solid regional influence. Where do you want to BE is the real question.

I can say, for instance, that WUSTL doesn't seem to have a strong hold out here in Cali, just as I'm sure a USC degree is worth less in Missouri.


I agree with the WUSTL statement. I'm not sure why the one poster seems to think it will rise up so quickly in the rankings. People say that kind of stuff on here all the time, but it's never true. I'm sure WUSTL puts a lot of money into their program, etc., but so do all the other top 20 programs. Obviously it's not a bad school by any means, but I would have to have a fairly significant scholarship, or huge ties to the midwest (and a desire to stay there) to pick WUSTL over Cornell. If you think WUSTL is going to place better in NYC, or even DC, than Cornell, then you are mistaken.

I also agree somewhat with the connections thing. If you really want to end up in LA, but your connections are all east coast, then obviously you should go to USC. That's why I was advocating thinking about where you want to be, and what you want to do. If you are truly ambivalent about whether you end up on the east coast or west coast, then in my mind it makes sense to stay in an area where you have personal and professional connections. Employers will believe you are going to stay on the east coast if you have lived there your whole life. Again, if you are from the east and really want to go to the west, then go to USC.

Desired practice area should also be a consideration, at least for specialized areas. The OP mentioned national security. In my opinion, it would not be a wise move to move to the west coast from the east expecting to get a job in national security. Most of the national security world is centered around DC. If you're talking about biglaw jobs, then the calculus changes. You can get biglaw jobs anywhere (although there are obviously more of them in NYC, Chicago, etc.).

Emboss
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Re: USC vs. W&M vs. WUSTL

Postby Emboss » Tue Mar 02, 2010 3:14 pm

I was curious about whether Wustl was actually getting better year to year, so I looked it up. The following are Wustl's US News point values over the years using USC (an excellent school I nevertheless turned down for Wustl) as a benchmark:

2005: 61 points ( 8 points behind USC ) <--Kent Syverud, Wustl law's dean, hired late this year.
2006: 63 points ( 5 points behind USC )
2007: 64 points ( 5 points behind USC, 4 behind Texas )
2008: 67 points ( 1 point behind USC )
2009: 69 points ( 3 points behind USC )

People (including TLS's creator, Ken) say Wustl is going up in the USN rankings because the data unequivocally says it is. Wustl has been going up in just about every category US News uses to rank schools--and in all of the important categories. The school also went up over 10 ranks in the past 14 years.

At any rate, I recommend visiting Wustl. The main reason I chose the school over Cornell, USC, Vanderbilt is because it felt right for me when I visited, obviously not due to US News rankings.

Rawlsian
Posts: 387
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Re: USC vs. W&M vs. WUSTL

Postby Rawlsian » Tue Mar 02, 2010 3:22 pm

Emboss wrote:I was curious about whether Wustl was actually getting better year to year, so I looked it up. The following are Wustl's US News point values over the years using USC (an excellent school I nevertheless turned down for Wustl) as a benchmark:

2005: 61 points ( 8 points behind USC ) <--Kent Syverud, Wustl law's dean, hired late this year.
2006: 63 points ( 5 points behind USC )
2007: 64 points ( 5 points behind USC, 4 behind Texas )
2008: 67 points ( 1 point behind USC )
2009: 69 points ( 3 points behind USC )

People (including TLS's creator, Ken) say Wustl is going up in the USN rankings because the data unequivocally says it is. Wustl has been going up in just about every category US News uses to rank schools--and in all of the important categories. The school also went up over 10 ranks in the past 14 years.

At any rate, I recommend visiting Wustl. The main reason I chose the school over Cornell, USC, Vanderbilt is because it felt right for me when I visited, obviously not due to US News rankings.


+1 The WUSTL does better than USC in every category besides expenditures per student. As far as faculty, facilities, entering class numbers, WUSTL beats out the other two.

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chadwick218
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Re: USC vs. W&M vs. WUSTL

Postby chadwick218 » Tue Mar 02, 2010 3:24 pm

All else equal, IMO, USC > W&M > WUSTL.

imisscollege
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Re: USC vs. W&M vs. WUSTL

Postby imisscollege » Tue Mar 02, 2010 3:27 pm

WUSTL is the only school on the list that is the absolute best in any market (albeit perhaps not an incredibly significant one). W and M gets dominated by a few schools and then you have UCLA in LA plus the lack of portability of the USC degree is something to think about too if you ever want to come back to the east coast

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chadwick218
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Re: USC vs. W&M vs. WUSTL

Postby chadwick218 » Tue Mar 02, 2010 3:46 pm

imisscollege wrote:WUSTL is the only school on the list that is the absolute best in any market (albeit perhaps not an incredibly significant one). W and M gets dominated by a few schools and then you have UCLA in LA plus the lack of portability of the USC degree is something to think about too if you ever want to come back to the east coast


If you browse the recent classes for many of the NLJ firms in St. Louis, WUSTL only appears to have a slight edge over over SLU and in fact a # of the firms take far more SLU grads than WUSTL grads. Self-selection certainly has some effect though. Indeed, the top grads at WUSTL tend to want to want to get the hell out of St. Louis.

UCLA has a more national reach than USC, but placement in LA is very much so on par.

musicfor18
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Re: USC vs. W&M vs. WUSTL

Postby musicfor18 » Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:31 pm

Hi everyone. I've really been enjoying the discussion in response to my original post. Can anyone comment on how they Emory in comparison to these other 3 schools?

irishman86
Posts: 312
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2009 7:03 am

Re: USC vs. W&M vs. WUSTL

Postby irishman86 » Wed Mar 03, 2010 2:55 am

amped wrote:
keg411 wrote:
irishman86 wrote:
lawhawk wrote: USC and I think it's kind of obvious. Only school there that dominates its market and it's only the #2 market in the US. Although I guess WUSTL dominates St Louis/Kansas City?


It doesn't really dominate the market considering quite a few T14 students from everywhere and UCLA grads work in LA.
LA is also FAR FROM the number 2 market in the US. NYC, DC, and Chicago are the top 3 markets in the US. I have no idea why you think LA can even compare with those 3 markets.


Are you talking about actual market size or LEGAL markets? I don't know about the latter, but LA is the #2 media market in the US.

1. NY
2. LA
3. Chicago
4. Philadelphia
5. Dallas

DC is down at #9.


He's probably referring to legal markets as we are law students. The size of the media market seems irrelevant when talking about potential job opportunities in the legal sector.


Right, I was referring to the legal market. LA is a joke legal market when compared to NYC, DC, and Chicago. For the most part people go to law school to become LAWYERS.

musicfor18
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Re: USC vs. W&M vs. WUSTL

Postby musicfor18 » Thu Mar 04, 2010 1:48 am

Bump.

musicfor18
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Re: Choose between USC, WUSTL, Emory, UIUC, and W&M

Postby musicfor18 » Sat Mar 06, 2010 6:13 pm

I've updated the poll to include a couple of other schools I've been accepted to and am considering. Please vote away, and leave comments in the thread!

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Joga Bonito
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Re: USC vs. W&M vs. WUSTL

Postby Joga Bonito » Sat Mar 06, 2010 6:21 pm

chadwick218 wrote:
imisscollege wrote:WUSTL is the only school on the list that is the absolute best in any market (albeit perhaps not an incredibly significant one). W and M gets dominated by a few schools and then you have UCLA in LA plus the lack of portability of the USC degree is something to think about too if you ever want to come back to the east coast


If you browse the recent classes for many of the NLJ firms in St. Louis, WUSTL only appears to have a slight edge over over SLU and in fact a # of the firms take far more SLU grads than WUSTL grads. Self-selection certainly has some effect though. Indeed, the top grads at WUSTL tend to want to want to get the hell out of St. Louis.

UCLA has a more national reach than USC, but placement in LA is very much so on par.


WUT!!! Stop trolling dude, its obviously self selection and a lot more than "some effect", SLU has no advantage over WashU with firms other than not having any employment options outside STL.

Xiaolong
Posts: 144
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Re: USC vs. W&M vs. WUSTL

Postby Xiaolong » Sun Mar 07, 2010 12:11 am

amped wrote:
1800calturk wrote:I don't think WUSTL is really that much on the rise, and it doesn't "dominate" the midwest since it faces healthy competition. I disagree that the OP should think about where he already has connections, you can build those connections, and like everyone said, these schools all have a solid regional influence. Where do you want to BE is the real question.

I can say, for instance, that WUSTL doesn't seem to have a strong hold out here in Cali, just as I'm sure a USC degree is worth less in Missouri.


I agree with the WUSTL statement. I'm not sure why the one poster seems to think it will rise up so quickly in the rankings. People say that kind of stuff on here all the time, but it's never true. I'm sure WUSTL puts a lot of money into their program, etc., but so do all the other top 20 programs. Obviously it's not a bad school by any means, but I would have to have a fairly significant scholarship, or huge ties to the midwest (and a desire to stay there) to pick WUSTL over Cornell. If you think WUSTL is going to place better in NYC, or even DC, than Cornell, then you are mistaken.

I also agree somewhat with the connections thing. If you really want to end up in LA, but your connections are all east coast, then obviously you should go to USC. That's why I was advocating thinking about where you want to be, and what you want to do. If you are truly ambivalent about whether you end up on the east coast or west coast, then in my mind it makes sense to stay in an area where you have personal and professional connections. Employers will believe you are going to stay on the east coast if you have lived there your whole life. Again, if you are from the east and really want to go to the west, then go to USC.

Desired practice area should also be a consideration, at least for specialized areas. The OP mentioned national security. In my opinion, it would not be a wise move to move to the west coast from the east expecting to get a job in national security. Most of the national security world is centered around DC. If you're talking about biglaw jobs, then the calculus changes. You can get biglaw jobs anywhere (although there are obviously more of them in NYC, Chicago, etc.).



The only difference seems to be that WUSTL has a lot more money to spend than other schools in the T20. Their endowment is almost double that of Vandy or USC. UCLA? Where are they getting money to spend with their broken economy in Cali?

WUSTL has the money and is willing to spend it big time as you can see from the generous scholarships many applicants get. I really don't see a reason, assuming WUSTL continues to be aggressive about hiring faculty and attracting top applicants, why WUSTL will not continue to rise in the rankings. I think it would be hard to argue that WUSTL has not been rising in the rankings over the last 10 years if you check the relevant data.

musicfor18
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Re: Choose between USC, WUSTL, Emory, UIUC, and W&M

Postby musicfor18 » Sun Mar 07, 2010 12:16 am

Where did WUSTL get so much money?

Xiaolong
Posts: 144
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Re: Choose between USC, WUSTL, Emory, UIUC, and W&M

Postby Xiaolong » Sun Mar 07, 2010 12:25 am

musicfor18 wrote:Where did WUSTL get so much money?


I don't know! Anheuser Busch? Their endowment is hovering around 5 billion.

musicfor18
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Re: Choose between USC, WUSTL, Emory, UIUC, and W&M

Postby musicfor18 » Sun Mar 07, 2010 12:27 am

Xiaolong wrote:
musicfor18 wrote:Where did WUSTL get so much money?


I don't know! Anheuser Busch? Their endowment is hovering around 5 billion.


Are you a WUSTL student?

Xiaolong
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Re: Choose between USC, WUSTL, Emory, UIUC, and W&M

Postby Xiaolong » Sun Mar 07, 2010 4:30 am

musicfor18 wrote:
Xiaolong wrote:
musicfor18 wrote:Where did WUSTL get so much money?


I don't know! Anheuser Busch? Their endowment is hovering around 5 billion.


Are you a WUSTL student?


Not yet, but I am seriously considering WUSTL.

Bankhead
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Re: Choose between USC, WUSTL, Emory, UIUC, and W&M

Postby Bankhead » Sun Mar 07, 2010 4:47 am

Jesus guys. It's an easy question: USC.

It's really... fucking... bad... out there. You're all talking about which school is spending the most money, like that's going to help you in the next 3 years. Who is hiring the most faculty? Who cares. Christ.

When you realize you have 2 firms come to your OCI, you'll wish you picked USC.

UCLAtransfer
Posts: 334
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2009 11:36 pm

Re: Choose between USC, WUSTL, Emory, UIUC, and W&M

Postby UCLAtransfer » Mon Mar 08, 2010 1:43 am

Bankhead wrote:Jesus guys. It's an easy question: USC.

It's really... fucking... bad... out there. You're all talking about which school is spending the most money, like that's going to help you in the next 3 years. Who is hiring the most faculty? Who cares. Christ.

When you realize you have 2 firms come to your OCI, you'll wish you picked USC.


Hahaha. This reminds me of that saying about rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic as it goes down. Well said, and I completely agree.

musicfor18
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Re: Choose between USC, WUSTL, Emory, UIUC, and W&M

Postby musicfor18 » Mon Mar 08, 2010 8:48 am

I'm surprised WUSTL has gotten so many votes ao far. I thought USC would come out way way ahead.

musicfor18
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Re: Choose between USC, WUSTL, Emory, UIUC, and W&M

Postby musicfor18 » Wed Mar 10, 2010 9:42 pm

bump




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