UC Irvine $$ v. USC

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

UC Irvine v. USC (if $ was no object)

UC Irvine
49
45%
USC
60
55%
 
Total votes: 109

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: UC Irvine $$ v. USC

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Tue Mar 02, 2010 3:53 pm

FuzzyKiwi wrote:This is what I've been wondering about. Why are people saying "if you want secure job prospects, go to USC?" (or other statements along those lines). My (perhaps uninformed) 0L impression has been that the economy has been particulary unpredictable, and that job prospects from any school are not secure. To me, that makes UCI (with significantly lower debt and staff/faculty/peers/mentors pulling for you) even more attractive than it may have been during boom years. I know this example is not really applicable to your situation, but I work for a nonprofit, and though we are hiring in our legal clinic (and pay very little), it's hard for managment to give serious consideration to any of the '09 graduate resumes we received in the flood of resumes with (at least) 1-2 years of litigation experience. I can only imagine that it's worse in the for-profit sector.


Well USC has a proven track record and UCI, even if it debuts well, "big law" firms will likely be weary of its graduates because they probably won't want to invest a lot of money in an unproven schools' graduates (like a poster stated earlier).

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1800calturk
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Re: UC Irvine $$ v. USC

Postby 1800calturk » Wed Mar 03, 2010 3:06 pm

I'm not a pessimist, I think that UCI grads will do fine and find gainful employment in the OC area. Will they do better than a school like USC? Probably not. The question for me is whether the soft factors are worth the superior stats that USC boasts.

Is there anyone out there who turned down, or is probably going to turn down, USC or any T20 school in favor of UCI? Everyone who has expressed extreme positivity about UCI isn't telling us what other schools they got into.

SandyC877
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Re: UC Irvine $$ v. USC

Postby SandyC877 » Wed Mar 03, 2010 3:29 pm

Blindmelon wrote:Hmm.. this is a tough decision. A school with a huge CA alumni network, great employment prospects (pre-crash), with a well respected UG and Law name versus a new unaccredited school with almost no alumni base to speak of that is unranked and could crash and burn now that they don't give free rides to everyone anymore, which will probably make their medians tank and even with a lot of optomism still won't push ahead of UCD or UCH give their stronger alumni base and better name in the legal world.

Yes... this is a tough one.


Someone sack this troll. USC is a fake private university of 30,000 student body that tries to ride on the wings of real private universities by including its name next to them in the same sentence.

prolyphek
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Re: UC Irvine $$ v. USC

Postby prolyphek » Wed Mar 03, 2010 3:36 pm

I may be in the minority considering how much stock people put in current rankings and prestige, but I don't believe in paying sticker price to go any where given the current climate...

ENGINEERD
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Re: UC Irvine $$ v. USC

Postby ENGINEERD » Wed Mar 03, 2010 3:45 pm

1800calturk wrote:I'm not a pessimist, I think that UCI grads will do fine and find gainful employment in the OC area. Will they do better than a school like USC? Probably not. The question for me is whether the soft factors are worth the superior stats that USC boasts.

Is there anyone out there who turned down, or is probably going to turn down, USC or any T20 school in favor of UCI? Everyone who has expressed extreme positivity about UCI isn't telling us what other schools they got into.


I am seriously considering turning down a T20 w/ $$ for UCI. The decision will probably come down to the last minute though.

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dontstopbelivin
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Re: UC Irvine $$ v. USC

Postby dontstopbelivin » Wed Mar 03, 2010 3:53 pm

ENGINEERD wrote:
1800calturk wrote:I'm not a pessimist, I think that UCI grads will do fine and find gainful employment in the OC area. Will they do better than a school like USC? Probably not. The question for me is whether the soft factors are worth the superior stats that USC boasts.

Is there anyone out there who turned down, or is probably going to turn down, USC or any T20 school in favor of UCI? Everyone who has expressed extreme positivity about UCI isn't telling us what other schools they got into.


I am seriously considering turning down a T20 w/ $$ for UCI. The decision will probably come down to the last minute though.


+1. Still waiting on some more data, like if for some reason I hate UCI at ASD (unlikely) or I get a similar scholarship from another school I'm considering (also unlikely), to make a final decision, but definitely still a contender.

SandyC877
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Re: UC Irvine $$ v. USC

Postby SandyC877 » Wed Mar 03, 2010 3:59 pm

UC Irvine Law's inaugural class of 60 was very intentional in its number. Small class like that is simply easier to manage. Law schools like UC Irvine isn't like any other novelty startup schools that collect payments from TTTT applicants. It's the real deal with real heavyweight Deans and professors putting their legacy on the line to pioneer a top notch legal education. These professors have worked in more prestigious schools than USC, and Dean Chemerinsky taught at USC for a long time. He knows the game.

There are reasons why UC Irvine put up that much money to early classes. Early classes simply need more assistance to break into the legal world for the obvious reasons: UCI have prestige, but lack tradition. But here's what's different about UCI from rest of the startup schools - the school works hard to place these early classes at the most advantageous places as possible, so that their multi-million dollar investment will pay off, and the school itself will flourish. For a class of 60? That's hardly impossible. From what I can gather, every single students in the inaugural class secured summer intern/employment.

You'd be a fool if you think that UCI Law will be okay with their recent graduates struggling to find employment and tarnish their new venture before it really begins. It cost them a lot of money, and they put the money where it matters. Right now, UCI median, not top 75percentile, but median, which determines the ranking, is at 167/3.6. This year's incoming class is projected to be slightly higher. Look at the LSN numbers. You will see that accepted applicants' are shifted more to the right than last year. Dean Chemerinsky also stated that he'd prefer to have fewer enrollees if that's what it takes to keep the median high.

Over the years, UCI plans to increase its class size to 300. By then, the rankings will speak for itself and they will no longer have to fork up half tuition. No other top law schools has a hold on the lower part of So Cal. UCI is the first and a very strategic business thinking.

Right now is the time to go to UCI, not later. No matter what, you can't really lose. You'd be coming out of law school with little to no debt. You have more options coming out of UCI than USC, due to financial freedom. The only advantage USC has on UCI is more familiar name. Even UCLA is more prestigious than USC. In terms of job prospect, you shouldn't have to worry about that.

SandyC877
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Re: UC Irvine $$ v. USC

Postby SandyC877 » Wed Mar 03, 2010 4:04 pm

1800calturk wrote:I'm not a pessimist, I think that UCI grads will do fine and find gainful employment in the OC area. Will they do better than a school like USC? Probably not. The question for me is whether the soft factors are worth the superior stats that USC boasts.

Is there anyone out there who turned down, or is probably going to turn down, USC or any T20 school in favor of UCI? Everyone who has expressed extreme positivity about UCI isn't telling us what other schools they got into.


USC's 75th percentile numbers are UCI's 50th percentile. UCI clearly has higher numbers. You don't think people who got into UCI also got into other top schools based on the numbers alone? UCI also has 4% acceptance rate out of nearly 3000 applicants. UCI's class is deliberate in its small size. I don't think you should be suspicious about what other schools UCI students got into. I'm sure they fared well in their cycle.


Here are some samples of inaugural class's applicants. These students indicated "Attending" on their LSN for UCI. They declined Columbia, UCLA, USC, Berkeley, Northwestern etc... for UCI

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/09appjill/jd
http://lawschoolnumbers.com/LawApp2012/jd
http://lawschoolnumbers.com/jbelisle/jd

Also see last year's graph compared to this year. Greens are shifted to the right. 2nd class will most likely have equal to higher median.

http://irvine.lawschoolnumbers.com/stat ... Cycle=0910

http://irvine.lawschoolnumbers.com/stat ... Cycle=0910

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Quine
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Re: UC Irvine $$ v. USC

Postby Quine » Wed Mar 03, 2010 5:19 pm

SandyC877 wrote:
1800calturk wrote:I'm not a pessimist, I think that UCI grads will do fine and find gainful employment in the OC area. Will they do better than a school like USC? Probably not. The question for me is whether the soft factors are worth the superior stats that USC boasts.

Is there anyone out there who turned down, or is probably going to turn down, USC or any T20 school in favor of UCI? Everyone who has expressed extreme positivity about UCI isn't telling us what other schools they got into.


USC's 75th percentile numbers are UCI's 50th percentile. UCI clearly has higher numbers. You don't think people who got into UCI also got into other top schools based on the numbers alone? UCI also has 4% acceptance rate out of nearly 3000 applicants. UCI's class is deliberate in its small size. I don't think you should be suspicious about what other schools UCI students got into. I'm sure they fared well in their cycle.


Here are some samples of inaugural class's applicants. These students indicated "Attending" on their LSN for UCI. They declined Columbia, UCLA, USC, Berkeley, Northwestern etc... for UCI

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/09appjill/jd
http://lawschoolnumbers.com/LawApp2012/jd
http://lawschoolnumbers.com/jbelisle/jd

Also see last year's graph compared to this year. Greens are shifted to the right. 2nd class will most likely have equal to higher median.

http://irvine.lawschoolnumbers.com/stat ... Cycle=0910

http://irvine.lawschoolnumbers.com/stat ... Cycle=0910


The bolded is blatantly false. UCI medians: 3.65, 167. USC medians: 3.60, 167. That's pretty damn close.

Comparing the inaugural class is inane. They all received twice the financial aid offer. This is a much different scenario for everyone attending. I can't imagine how much smaller the class will have to be in order to maintain those medians this year.

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1800calturk
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Re: UC Irvine $$ v. USC

Postby 1800calturk » Wed Mar 03, 2010 5:55 pm

Also the 4% acceptance is ridiculous, since people all over the board applied to UCI, who waived its application fee for everyone, and no one had any frame of reference as to what kind of numbers they would take. They made it a "why not take a shot for guaranteed 100% tuition" scenario. I'm also skeptical about the numbers since they won't release their 25% and 75%, leading me to believe they used extreme splitters to pad their numbers.

That being said, you bring up a good point about employment, UCI has more of a vested interested in getting every student employed than any other school right now. However, with zero alumni base, there is an argument that this evens out.

Another thing that worries me is the faculty hype. I don't know enough about the legal to community to know what constitutes a "great faculty", but I imagine USC's faculty is nothing to sneeze at either. I am obviously very impressed with Dean Chemerinsky's credentials (As are many of the faculty, which is why they took the chance on UCI) but no law school's reputation should be stacked so heavily on its dean. What if something happens to him?

eth3n
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Re: UC Irvine $$ v. USC

Postby eth3n » Wed Mar 03, 2010 6:24 pm

1800calturk wrote:Also the 4% acceptance is ridiculous, since people all over the board applied to UCI, who waived its application fee for everyone, and no one had any frame of reference as to what kind of numbers they would take. They made it a "why not take a shot for guaranteed 100% tuition" scenario. I'm also skeptical about the numbers since they won't release their 25% and 75%, leading me to believe they used extreme splitters to pad their numbers.

SandyC877
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Re: UC Irvine $$ v. USC

Postby SandyC877 » Wed Mar 03, 2010 6:50 pm

1800calturk wrote:Also the 4% acceptance is ridiculous, since people all over the board applied to UCI, who waived its application fee for everyone, and no one had any frame of reference as to what kind of numbers they would take. They made it a "why not take a shot for guaranteed 100% tuition" scenario. I'm also skeptical about the numbers since they won't release their 25% and 75%, leading me to believe they used extreme splitters to pad their numbers.

That being said, you bring up a good point about employment, UCI has more of a vested interested in getting every student employed than any other school right now. However, with zero alumni base, there is an argument that this evens out.

Another thing that worries me is the faculty hype. I don't know enough about the legal to community to know what constitutes a "great faculty", but I imagine USC's faculty is nothing to sneeze at either. I am obviously very impressed with Dean Chemerinsky's credentials (As are many of the faculty, which is why they took the chance on UCI) but no law school's reputation should be stacked so heavily on its dean. What if something happens to him?


sure, but how many applicants actually knew that UCI gave out free waivers? and my USC 75th vs USC 50th is from TLS website. Most law schools do not disclose their median #s, only 25th and 75th.

As for the bolded part, that's an irrational reasoning. What if Troy burned down? What if you died walking to your first class? It's not like the faculty at UCI are all terminally ill.

Dean reputation at UCI is stacked, because well, it's stacked as hell. The team with Michael Jordan gets the hype because he is Jordan.

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Quine
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Re: UC Irvine $$ v. USC

Postby Quine » Wed Mar 03, 2010 7:36 pm

SandyC877 wrote:
1800calturk wrote:Also the 4% acceptance is ridiculous, since people all over the board applied to UCI, who waived its application fee for everyone, and no one had any frame of reference as to what kind of numbers they would take. They made it a "why not take a shot for guaranteed 100% tuition" scenario. I'm also skeptical about the numbers since they won't release their 25% and 75%, leading me to believe they used extreme splitters to pad their numbers.

That being said, you bring up a good point about employment, UCI has more of a vested interested in getting every student employed than any other school right now. However, with zero alumni base, there is an argument that this evens out.

Another thing that worries me is the faculty hype. I don't know enough about the legal to community to know what constitutes a "great faculty", but I imagine USC's faculty is nothing to sneeze at either. I am obviously very impressed with Dean Chemerinsky's credentials (As are many of the faculty, which is why they took the chance on UCI) but no law school's reputation should be stacked so heavily on its dean. What if something happens to him?


sure, but how many applicants actually knew that UCI gave out free waivers? and my USC 75th vs USC 50th is from TLS website. Most law schools do not disclose their median #s, only 25th and 75th.

As for the bolded part, that's an irrational reasoning. What if Troy burned down? What if you died walking to your first class? It's not like the faculty at UCI are all terminally ill.

Dean reputation at UCI is stacked, because well, it's stacked as hell. The team with Michael Jordan gets the hype because he is Jordan.


What? As far as I know, every law school discloses their medians - it's the only number (of 25th, median, 75th) that affects their US News ranking. USC's profile on this site is sorely neglected, but in your lack of information you have demonstrated how little you know about law school admissions. Both schools' websites lay out this information very explicitly:

http://www.law.uci.edu/about_the_inaugural_class.html

http://lawweb.usc.edu/how/jd/classProfile.cfm

Which now calls for a revision of my earlier statement - the medians are almost exactly the same. The only difference is 0.01 in Irvine's favor on the GPA. Something I'm quite sure USC could pull off if everyone in the class of 2012 was offered full-ride.

Also, if you don't believe that schools issue median numbers, from where did you discover that "USC's 75th percentile numbers are UCI's 50th percentile"??? Was this just blind speculation?

Either way, you are wrong.

ViP
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Re: UC Irvine $$ v. USC

Postby ViP » Wed Mar 03, 2010 11:51 pm

1800calturk wrote:Also the 4% acceptance is ridiculous, since people all over the board applied to UCI, who waived its application fee for everyone, and no one had any frame of reference as to what kind of numbers they would take. They made it a "why not take a shot for guaranteed 100% tuition" scenario. I'm also skeptical about the numbers since they won't release their 25% and 75%, leading me to believe they used extreme splitters to pad their numbers.

That being said, you bring up a good point about employment, UCI has more of a vested interested in getting every student employed than any other school right now. However, with zero alumni base, there is an argument that this evens out.

Another thing that worries me is the faculty hype. I don't know enough about the legal to community to know what constitutes a "great faculty", but I imagine USC's faculty is nothing to sneeze at either. I am obviously very impressed with Dean Chemerinsky's credentials (As are many of the faculty, which is why they took the chance on UCI) but no law school's reputation should be stacked so heavily on its dean. What if something happens to him?


1) That may be true, but it's worth noting that in the TLS UCI article, the author says: "In addition, the law school chose not to share 25th and 75th percentile information with TLS, claiming the insignificance of these statistics. This is reasonable, since the class size is extremely small, the law school has only had one cycle, and numbers without context can easily mislead potential applicants."

Seems plausible. After all; the 25th % doesn't even account for 25 people... Splitting 60 students in such a way is kind of silly.

2) The medians are what matter for rankings, anyways. The way you achieve them is irrelevant.

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ruleser
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Re: UC Irvine $$ v. USC

Postby ruleser » Thu Mar 04, 2010 12:18 am

Honestly, its a tough decision - and I say this as someone in la who knows the hold usc has in the city. 1/2 tuition - guaranteed for 3 years, unlike some other schools - is a big deal ite. Total tuition of approx 65k, vs. 140 for usc. That's not a small difference. And being the biggest player in oc - if that is the case - could be a big deal - if oc firms want to support local, that is an awesome market due to nothing else but, say, chapman down there. Plus, the list of co's signed up are legit - this means the la legal community is at least interested. I also think the first couple classes will get special employer attention. A number of people in the past chose loyola w/$ over usc - if uci is held as a t1 by the la community, it is a tough call.

Top 20 doesn't mean anything - uci won't be national anytime soon, nor is usc. All that matters is if uci is seen as t1 locally - if so, there are some serious advantages. But, of course, usc is a massive player in la and uci in general is non-existent.

The schol makes it a tough call.

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1800calturk
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Re: UC Irvine $$ v. USC

Postby 1800calturk » Thu Mar 04, 2010 1:23 am

ruleser wrote:Honestly, its a tough decision - and I say this as someone in la who knows the hold usc has in the city. 1/2 tuition - guaranteed for 3 years, unlike some other schools - is a big deal ite. Total tuition of approx 65k, vs. 140 for usc. That's not a small difference. And being the biggest player in oc - if that is the case - could be a big deal - if oc firms want to support local, that is an awesome market due to nothing else but, say, chapman down there. Plus, the list of co's signed up are legit - this means the la legal community is at least interested. I also think the first couple classes will get special employer attention. A number of people in the past chose loyola w/$ over usc - if uci is held as a t1 by the la community, it is a tough call.

Top 20 doesn't mean anything - uci won't be national anytime soon, nor is usc. All that matters is if uci is seen as t1 locally - if so, there are some serious advantages. But, of course, usc is a massive player in la and uci in general is non-existent.

The schol makes it a tough call.


Really great points, thanks. Do you think UCI will be a bigger player in OC than USC? If the scholarship wasn't a consideration (let's say USC offers a significant $), would USC be the easy choice?

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pany1985
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Re: UC Irvine $$ v. USC

Postby pany1985 » Thu Mar 04, 2010 1:33 am

I think it all depends if you like living in a trashy area of Los Angeles and paying full tuition.

If you prefer to pay less and live in Orange County (ten minutes from the beach), go UCI.

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ruleser
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Re: UC Irvine $$ v. USC

Postby ruleser » Thu Mar 04, 2010 2:05 am

1800calturk wrote:
ruleser wrote:Honestly, its a tough decision - and I say this as someone in la who knows the hold usc has in the city. 1/2 tuition - guaranteed for 3 years, unlike some other schools - is a big deal ite. Total tuition of approx 65k, vs. 140 for usc. That's not a small difference. And being the biggest player in oc - if that is the case - could be a big deal - if oc firms want to support local, that is an awesome market due to nothing else but, say, chapman down there. Plus, the list of co's signed up are legit - this means the la legal community is at least interested. I also think the first couple classes will get special employer attention. A number of people in the past chose loyola w/$ over usc - if uci is held as a t1 by the la community, it is a tough call.

Top 20 doesn't mean anything - uci won't be national anytime soon, nor is usc. All that matters is if uci is seen as t1 locally - if so, there are some serious advantages. But, of course, usc is a massive player in la and uci in general is non-existent.

The schol makes it a tough call.


Really great points, thanks. Do you think UCI will be a bigger player in OC than USC? If the scholarship wasn't a consideration (let's say USC offers a significant $), would USC be the easy choice?

I do - but just my guess - things are very local in law, and oc is its own world - I think the legal commun there would love to have its own high-ranked t1 to draw from as opposed to getting essentially the leftovers/lower ranked ucla/usc students. And honestly, that list of firms for oci is top notch.

With equal dollars, I would choose based on where you prefer to be. If you prefer oc, maybe uci - if you want anywhere else in so cal - or anywhere else in general, I'd do usc. But also check the environs - uci is more pristine/by the beach but also a lot more removed/potentially dull. Usc is in the hood sort of, but it is in la, has the football thing, the rich alum network.

But also, if you want to pioneer something/get close attention, go to uci's asw and get the feel. As I said, tough call, but two great options.

Don't forget tho a bit of chaos at the uc's, while private schools are a bit more stable these days.

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Re: UC Irvine $$ v. USC

Postby irishman86 » Thu Mar 04, 2010 6:04 pm

It's going to take a very, very long time for employers to consider UCI as remotely on the same level as USC.
Many employers do not check annual rankings so even if UCI debuts as a top 30 doesn't really mean anything in the employment world. UC Irvine's undergrad is a joke too; just because it's a UC doesn't mean anything.

That said, if you are set on PI maybe you should consider UCI because PI people are more into ECs, etc., but if you want to work in biglaw or corporate, go to USC.

ENGINEERD
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Re: UC Irvine $$ v. USC

Postby ENGINEERD » Thu Mar 04, 2010 6:04 pm

I just learned that you cannot transfer out of UCI due to its lack of accreditation.

So If you have any hopes of transferring into T14 you might want to consider that.

ENGINEERD
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Re: UC Irvine $$ v. USC

Postby ENGINEERD » Thu Mar 04, 2010 6:10 pm

irishman86 wrote:It's going to take a very, very long time for employers to consider UCI as remotely on the same level as USC.
Many employers do not check annual rankings so even if UCI debuts as a top 30 doesn't really mean anything in the employment world. UC Irvine's undergrad is a joke too; just because it's a UC doesn't mean anything.

That said, if you are set on PI maybe you should consider UCI because PI people are more into ECs, etc., but if you want to work in biglaw or corporate, go to USC.


unfounded

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msch0i
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Re: UC Irvine $$ v. USC

Postby msch0i » Thu Mar 04, 2010 7:00 pm

irishman86 wrote:It's going to take a very, very long time for employers to consider UCI as remotely on the same level as USC.
Many employers do not check annual rankings so even if UCI debuts as a top 30 doesn't really mean anything in the employment world. UC Irvine's undergrad is a joke too; just because it's a UC doesn't mean anything.

That said, if you are set on PI maybe you should consider UCI because PI people are more into ECs, etc., but if you want to work in biglaw or corporate, go to USC.


Honestly, I think if one wants to stay local, job prospects for UCI aren't bad at all. There are plenty of OC firms (and even LA firms) jumping on the chance to mentor for current UCI Law students and they have had no problem finding summer jobs/clerkships so far - no reason to believe the students they mentor will be overlooked at all. Not sure about going norcal or out of state, though...as people have mentioned in the Irvine thread, UCI is still very new and relatively unknown in the east coast. But that can change in the next three years, imo.

I agree with the bit about UCI's PI concentration vs. USC's corporate concentration though. Irvine does seem to be stressing public service a lot (yay!), whereas USC LOVES corporate. A professor of mine went to USC law and told me it was virtually impossible for him to utilize the career center because they would, in the end, always nudge you towards a future in corporate/biglaw when he was actually more interested in international law, etc. Not sure how accurate that is, since that's the outlook of one alumnus, but that's just what I've been exposed to so far.

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1800calturk
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Re: UC Irvine $$ v. USC

Postby 1800calturk » Sun Mar 07, 2010 4:02 am

I wrote in both applications that I was interested in corporate. I think both schools are looking for all kinds.

tbd
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Re: UC Irvine $$ v. USC

Postby tbd » Wed Mar 10, 2010 1:50 pm

ENGINEERD wrote:I just learned that you cannot transfer out of UCI due to its lack of accreditation.

So If you have any hopes of transferring into T14 you might want to consider that.


... that is a huge consideration I would have never thought of. Seriously?

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ruleser
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Re: UC Irvine $$ v. USC

Postby ruleser » Wed Mar 10, 2010 4:42 pm

tbd wrote:
ENGINEERD wrote:I just learned that you cannot transfer out of UCI due to its lack of accreditation.

So If you have any hopes of transferring into T14 you might want to consider that.


... that is a huge consideration I would have never thought of. Seriously?

I have heard a bit of both ways on this - some schools I think will let you transfer once they are provisionally accredited, but even if that's true, no guarantee that happens but end of next year.




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