Best school for working in Texas

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kittenmittons
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Re: Best school for working in Texas

Postby kittenmittons » Thu Feb 25, 2010 11:18 pm

I'm in a similar position to others itt. After doing some NALP research, there are a number of market paying firms in Texas that OCI at UT and not necessarily elsewhere in the T14.

For example, 81 firms who pay >100,000 OCI at UT as opposed to only 31 who do it at Columbia, 50 at UVA, 51 at H, etc.

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quetzalcoatl
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Re: Best school for working in Texas

Postby quetzalcoatl » Thu Feb 25, 2010 11:19 pm

Stringer Bell wrote:
JSUVA2012 wrote:At equal class rank, I'd take almost any T14 w/ Texas ties over UT.


I've seen you advocate this general principle and I agree to an extent, but how do you gain access to a market if the firms from there don't interview at the school you choose to attend? For Texas I would understand UVA since all the firms do go there, but won't it be harder going to NYU where you won't have the same access? Dumb 0L here, but I would think it would be much harder to land a 2L SA position submitting a resume as opposed to going through OCI, is this inaccurate?


This was kinda what I was wondering. I know F&J comes to Duke (for texas), Im sure they go almost everywhere but I dont know which offices they are recruiting for at other schools.

helvidius2010
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Re: Best school for working in Texas

Postby helvidius2010 » Thu Feb 25, 2010 11:31 pm

For Dallas/Houston, assuming Texas ties: HYSCCNMVPB > UT > DNCG
For Austin: HYSCCN > top 10% UT > MVPBDCNG, and your Texas ties had better be Austin specific.

I know F&J comes to Duke (for texas), Im sure they go almost everywhere but I dont know which offices they are recruiting for at other schools.

Look on nalpdirectory.com, the Big3 have traditionally gone to all of the T14 OCIs, except for Cornell in some instances.

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someones alt
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Re: Best school for working in Texas

Postby someones alt » Thu Feb 25, 2010 11:49 pm

Every TLSer who wants to work in Texas is going to Duke this year just btw.

Or at least the class of 2013 thread makes it seem that way.

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quetzalcoatl
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Re: Best school for working in Texas

Postby quetzalcoatl » Fri Feb 26, 2010 12:05 am

someones alt wrote:Every TLSer who wants to work in Texas is going to Duke this year just btw.

Or at least the class of 2013 thread makes it seem that way.


thats one of the reasons I was thinking about seperating myself from the pack.
helvidius2010 wrote:For Dallas/Houston, assuming Texas ties: HYSCCNMVPB > UT > DNCG
For Austin: HYSCCN > top 10% UT > MVPBDCNG, and your Texas ties had better be Austin specific.

I know F&J comes to Duke (for texas), Im sure they go almost everywhere but I dont know which offices they are recruiting for at other schools.

Look on nalpdirectory.com, the Big3 have traditionally gone to all of the T14 OCIs, except for Cornell in some instances.


So would you say U of C top 25% would be better than UT top 10%? I know that would be true for almost any market (but maybe not texas?).

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Stringer Bell
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Re: Best school for working in Texas

Postby Stringer Bell » Fri Feb 26, 2010 1:08 am

quetzalcoatl wrote:So would you say U of C top 25% would be better than UT top 10%? I know that would be true for almost any market (but maybe not texas?).


I don't think that poster (edit: not you, I'm referencing helvidius) has any idea wtf they are talking about. Nobody has really given a good answer yet on how to get jobs at firms you don't have access to. If you are top 10% at UT you are probably golden anywhere in Texas. I have nothing to back that up except for attorneys in Texas I have spoken to.

PartyOfOne
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Re: Best school for working in Texas

Postby PartyOfOne » Fri Feb 26, 2010 1:21 am

A Dallas-based partner of a Vault top-25 firm, who frequently interviews associate candidates, offered this list:

For firms, Harvard, yale, stanford, columbia, chicago, Berkeley, NYU, Virginia, Penn, Duke, Michigan, Texas,...

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im_blue
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Re: Best school for working in Texas

Postby im_blue » Fri Feb 26, 2010 1:38 am

PartyOfOne wrote:A Dallas-based partner of a Vault top-25 firm, who frequently interviews associate candidates, offered this list:

For firms, Harvard, yale, stanford, columbia, chicago, Berkeley, NYU, Virginia, Penn, Duke, Michigan, Texas,...


Subtle Northwestern trolling? NU places about 4% in Texas compared to NYU's 1%.

PartyOfOne
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Re: Best school for working in Texas

Postby PartyOfOne » Fri Feb 26, 2010 3:06 am

im_blue wrote:
PartyOfOne wrote:A Dallas-based partner of a Vault top-25 firm, who frequently interviews associate candidates, offered this list:

For firms, Harvard, yale, stanford, columbia, chicago, Berkeley, NYU, Virginia, Penn, Duke, Michigan, Texas,...


Subtle Northwestern trolling? NU places about 4% in Texas compared to NYU's 1%.


Come on, the person who made this list didn't have an agenda to denigrate Northwestern.

A lot of that difference is self-selection. Relatively few NYU grads seek jobs in Texas. Plus, Northwestern would undoubtedly follow shortly if this list continued. If so, the list rates it only slightly worse than a UT degree, in Texas. Not bad.

That said, for an elite Vault 25 firm office in any market, I have to think NYU usually beats Northwestern.

helvidius2010
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Re: Best school for working in Texas

Postby helvidius2010 » Fri Feb 26, 2010 3:11 am

Stringer Bell wrote:
quetzalcoatl wrote:So would you say U of C top 25% would be better than UT top 10%? I know that would be true for almost any market (but maybe not texas?).


I don't think that poster (edit: not you, I'm referencing helvidius) has any idea wtf they are talking about. Nobody has really given a good answer yet on how to get jobs at firms you don't have access to. If you are top 10% at UT you are probably golden anywhere in Texas. I have nothing to back that up except for attorneys in Texas I have spoken to.


God this place is insufferable at times. According to NALP, the Big3 in Texas do OCI at each of the T14 (except for Cornell for one of them). While other BigTex firms may not do OCI at all of the T14, I cannot imagine they would not be receptive to resumes from T10 students with the requisite grades and Texas connections. My opinions here and above are based on my observations while splitting for two summers in various Dallas and Austin BigLaw offices. Most of my fellow SAs in Dallas were T10 or top 1/3 or so from UT. In Austin, it was more T6 and law review types from UT. But these are just personal anecdotes, so take them for what they're worth.

BTW, top 10% is not golden in Austin. It is just about required, but no where near sufficient. I know plenty of people in the top 10% at UT who had a tough time finding gigs in Austin. The BigLaw offices in Austin are relatively small and take small summer classes. Thus, it can be hit or miss even if you have the required credentials.

Outside of Austin, Stringer is correct. There are not a whole lot of jobs in Dallas/Houston that you won't have access to from the top 10% at UT, so the comparison to the top 25% at U Chicago is moot.
Last edited by helvidius2010 on Fri Feb 26, 2010 3:57 am, edited 3 times in total.

PartyOfOne
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Re: Best school for working in Texas

Postby PartyOfOne » Fri Feb 26, 2010 3:13 am

louboutin wrote:hmm I had always thought if you want to stay in TX, go to UT unless you get into HYS. Now i am debating, Duke with $$ or UT with $$. I have never been to North Carolina... no idea what it's like there.

Still waiting to hear from UVA, which would be my top choice for TX as long as I got some scholarship.

Also CCN v. TX for TX?? Deciding between that, too


You and I are in the exact same boat. I always thought it was Harvard or Texas for me. Now, with applications out at CCNBV, I'm re-examining the possibilities of all these schools. UVA sounds like it has great cross-appeal in my two favorite markets: Texas/South and DC.

Of course, this is all speculation for me. Sounds like you already have the acceptances in the bag. I'm in at Texas and waiting on six. It would be nice problem to have to make some tough choices.

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Stringer Bell
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Re: Best school for working in Texas

Postby Stringer Bell » Fri Feb 26, 2010 11:19 am

helvidius2010 wrote:
Stringer Bell wrote:
quetzalcoatl wrote:So would you say U of C top 25% would be better than UT top 10%? I know that would be true for almost any market (but maybe not texas?).


I don't think that poster (edit: not you, I'm referencing helvidius) has any idea wtf they are talking about. Nobody has really given a good answer yet on how to get jobs at firms you don't have access to. If you are top 10% at UT you are probably golden anywhere in Texas. I have nothing to back that up except for attorneys in Texas I have spoken to.


God this place is insufferable at times. According to NALP, the Big3 in Texas do OCI at each of the T14 (except for Cornell for one of them). While other BigTex firms may not do OCI at all of the T14, I cannot imagine they would not be receptive to resumes from T10 students with the requisite grades and Texas connections. My opinions here and above are based on my observations while splitting for two summers in various Dallas and Austin BigLaw offices. Most of my fellow SAs in Dallas were T10 or top 1/3 or so from UT. In Austin, it was more T6 and law review types from UT. But these are just personal anecdotes, so take them for what they're worth.

BTW, top 10% is not golden in Austin. It is just about required, but no where near sufficient. I know plenty of people in the top 10% at UT who had a tough time finding gigs in Austin. The BigLaw offices in Austin are relatively small and take small summer classes. Thus, it can be hit or miss even if you have the required credentials.

Outside of Austin, Stringer is correct. There are not a whole lot of jobs in Dallas/Houston that you won't have access to from the top 10% at UT, so the comparison to the top 25% at U Chicago is moot.


Fair enough. I thought you were firing from the hip, but it sounds like you have more insight than I do since I am just using the NALP directory, post grad region breakouts from the schools and conversations with Houston attorneys. The thing that really got me in your chart was NYU>top 10% UT in Austin. Would an NYU student without top grades really have an advantage getting a job in Austin over a top 10% UT student?

And yes, I imagine an NYU student with a high enough GPA can likely get V&E or any other firm in Houston or Dallas if they want it, but what about a barely above median student? It would seem that in this scenario you would have a better shot at getting at least one Texas firm to bite coming from UVA since you would likely get more interviews. Are firms from Texas really going to get a resume from a top 40% NYU student and say "Why don't you fly down for an interview?" And even if they do, wouldn't you have to do that several times to make up for the gap of not having access to those firms at OCI?

Esc
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Re: Best school for working in Texas

Postby Esc » Fri Feb 26, 2010 11:29 am

Texas ties are not good enough to get a job in Austin. If you go to a T14, you need Austin ties to get a job here, regardless of what your grades are. There are exceptions, of course, as there always are, but this is the general rule.

Top 10% from UT will get any job in Texas, and will beat any T14er of any rank for any job in Austin unless the T14er went to UT undergrad or lived in Austin before law school. End of story.

louboutin
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Re: Best school for working in Texas

Postby louboutin » Fri Feb 26, 2010 1:04 pm

PartyOfOne wrote:
louboutin wrote:hmm I had always thought if you want to stay in TX, go to UT unless you get into HYS. Now i am debating, Duke with $$ or UT with $$. I have never been to North Carolina... no idea what it's like there.

Still waiting to hear from UVA, which would be my top choice for TX as long as I got some scholarship.

Also CCN v. TX for TX?? Deciding between that, too


You and I are in the exact same boat. I always thought it was Harvard or Texas for me. Now, with applications out at CCNBV, I'm re-examining the possibilities of all these schools. UVA sounds like it has great cross-appeal in my two favorite markets: Texas/South and DC.

Of course, this is all speculation for me. Sounds like you already have the acceptances in the bag. I'm in at Texas and waiting on six. It would be nice problem to have to make some tough choices.


I'm still waiting on UVA, and since I've been under review since early November my hopes are pretty slim at this point. Putting UVA aside... I am really confused. I have heard what Esc said - that UT beats out most T14 in Texas - and I have also heard that you should go to the best school you get into.

And in the long run is it better to go to the cheapest school? I got money at Duke, but I am not sure if I want to live there. at all.

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quetzalcoatl
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Re: Best school for working in Texas

Postby quetzalcoatl » Fri Feb 26, 2010 4:57 pm

Esc wrote:Texas ties are not good enough to get a job in Austin. If you go to a T14, you need Austin ties to get a job here, regardless of what your grades are. There are exceptions, of course, as there always are, but this is the general rule.

Top 10% from UT will get any job in Texas, and will beat any T14er of any rank for any job in Austin unless the T14er went to UT undergrad or lived in Austin before law school. End of story.


Austin seems like the strangest legal market in the country. It just seems crazy to think that a law review SLS grad cant work in Austin unless he has strong Austin ties, while at the same time a top 10% UT grad will. I hear very conflicting statements from old UT grads, who say top 10% can work anywhere in Texas, and current/recent UT students that say the market now has more competition from other t14s.

louboutin
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Re: Best school for working in Texas

Postby louboutin » Fri Feb 26, 2010 5:03 pm

I know an SLS grad who works in Austin. I'm sure at the HYS level, you do stand out in any legal market.

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Re: Best school for working in Texas

Postby 86revolt » Fri Feb 26, 2010 6:22 pm

according to Fullbright & jaworski's linkedin page, about 13% of its employees went to UTlaw

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someones alt
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Re: Best school for working in Texas

Postby someones alt » Fri Feb 26, 2010 6:54 pm

:idea: Solution: Go to UT for a year, then transfer to your choice T14

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FunkyJD
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Re: Best school for working in Texas

Postby FunkyJD » Sat Feb 27, 2010 12:46 pm

Esc wrote:Texas ties are not good enough to get a job in Austin. If you go to a T14, you need Austin ties to get a job here, regardless of what your grades are. There are exceptions, of course, as there always are, but this is the general rule.

Top 10% from UT will get any job in Texas, and will beat any T14er of any rank for any job in Austin unless the T14er went to UT undergrad or lived in Austin before law school. End of story.

This is seriously credited.

Overall, this topic about which law school is the best for working in Texas comes up a lot on TLS. It's as if posters don't believe that the Texas market is as seriously insular as it is. Some folks will have to learn the hard way, I guess.

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FunkyJD
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Re: Best school for working in Texas

Postby FunkyJD » Sat Feb 27, 2010 12:50 pm

PartyOfOne wrote:A Dallas-based partner of a Vault top-25 firm, who frequently interviews associate candidates, offered this list:

For firms, Harvard, yale, stanford, columbia, chicago, Berkeley, NYU, Virginia, Penn, Duke, Michigan, Texas,...

I'd be interested to know if "interviews" = "hired in Texas."

For example: Go to SMU and dominate, and you'll hold your own in Dallas against many T14 grads, in terms of actually getting a job in Dallas these days. Obviously, SMU is clearly not T14, but that advice comes from a Dallas biglaw contact as well. Take a look at SMU's NLJ250 placement numbers from 2009. They seriously outperformed their US News ranking.

louboutin wrote:I know an SLS grad who works in Austin. I'm sure at the HYS level, you do stand out in any legal market.

I also know an T6 grad who works in Austin. He has serious Texas ties. He stood out.

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quetzalcoatl
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Re: Best school for working in Texas

Postby quetzalcoatl » Sat Feb 27, 2010 3:17 pm

My Texas ties are as strong as they can get. Ive lived here my entire life and went to UG here. My austin ties arent that strong but I do know some very well respected lawyers in austin who will vouch for me. One of my better friend's father has the whole MD/JD/MBA thing and works in austin.

jms1987
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Re: Best school for working in Texas

Postby jms1987 » Sat Feb 27, 2010 3:29 pm

Is Texas really that hard to get a BigLaw job in if you aren't from there? Its my first choice (with California is a close second) and all of the posts in here make me a bit nervous. I have no ties other than some family down there. Granted, I'm still in undergrad so it shouldn't be that much of a concern yet
Last edited by jms1987 on Sat Feb 27, 2010 4:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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FunkyJD
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Re: Best school for working in Texas

Postby FunkyJD » Sat Feb 27, 2010 4:18 pm

jms1987 wrote:Is Texas really that hard to get a BigLaw job in if you aren't from there? Its my first choice (with California s a close second) and all of the posts in here make me a bit nervous. I have no ties other than some family down there. Granted, I'm still in undergrad so it shouldn't be that much of a concern yet

There are always exceptions to every rule. However, it is no joke that Texas firms really like people with significant ties to the state.

Your family ties might help you in an interview, depending on the strength of those ties. I suppose the larger question is, how do you plan to get interviewed? Are you able to go to a law school where the Texas offices of a firm recruits? And how often do those offices hire the students they do interview? (edit: I see Stringer Bell has made a similar point earlier, and he's not wrong.)

If that doesn't happen, are you confident in your ability to do the legwork necessary to get those firms to give you a chance, over Texas, SMU and Houston grads -- and Duke, Stanford, and Yale grads with Texas ties? I suppose anyone who is talented and motivated enough can accomplish anything, but what are the odds?

The interesting thing is, if you went to UT and did well, there may be some portability back to California. You could possibly kill two birds with one stone. There are UT associates and partners in various Cali offices of Jones Day, MoFo, O'Melveny, Pillsbury, and other firms.
Last edited by FunkyJD on Sat Feb 27, 2010 4:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

jms1987
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Re: Best school for working in Texas

Postby jms1987 » Sat Feb 27, 2010 4:26 pm

Thanks for the quick reply ^ I've really considered going to school there too, if I decide texas is 100% where want to be. SMU or UT are schools I've had an interest in for some time now.

edit- I'm not from Cali, Ohio is my current state of residency, so going there would most likely mean going to school there or some other T14

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FunkyJD
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Re: Best school for working in Texas

Postby FunkyJD » Sat Feb 27, 2010 4:36 pm

jms1987 wrote:Thanks for the quick reply ^ I've really considered going to school there too, if I decide texas is 100% where want to be. SMU or UT are schools I've had an interest in for some time now.

FWIW, there's a chance I might end up going to a T25 law school outside of Texas -- we'll see if SMU loves me or not, UT already WL'd me.

If that occurs, even though (a) I live in Texas, and have significant family and personal ties to this state; (b) will have a University of Texas degree; and (c) have contacts in big firms in Dallas, Austin, and Houston, I'm still scared about my job prospects here!

Hopefully, I'll be okay. I have friends with Dallas biglaw ties who tell me, you'll be fine, don't worry, just make sure you do well in law school and you'll be okay -- but there's still a part of me that worries that I might be taking a chance of getting locked out of the market by going to law school out-of-state.

I hope I'm just being paranoid. I'm probably thinking more emotionally than rationally, but you can see how I've been conditioned to think, career-wise. Maybe I just need to chill out, pop open a Shiner, and enjoy this weather we're having today.




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