Fordham # of attorneys > GULC # of attorneys in NYC @ V50?

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starsong
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Fordham # of attorneys > GULC # of attorneys in NYC @ V50?

Postby starsong » Thu Feb 25, 2010 4:36 pm

Not suggesting that Fordham places better than GULC nationally. Just interesting data that I compiled on # of attorneys in NYC offices:

Fordham vs. Georgetown - NYC Attorneys
??? = didn't find school-specific or city-specific search on firm web site

Code: Select all

                                  Fordham        Georgetown
  1 Wachtell                              4           4
  2 Cravath                              28          16
  3 Skadden                              44          35
  4 S&C                                  10           2
  5 Davis Polk                           24          33
  6 Weil Gotshal                         60          40
  7 Simpson Thatcher                     29          31
  8 Cleary Gottlieb                       9          10
  9 Covington & Burling                   5           2
 10 Kirkland & Ellis                     19          21
 11 Williams & Connoley                   0           0
 12 Debevoise & Plimpton                 18          14
 13 Paul Weiss                           20          20
 14 Gibson Dunn                          11          10
 15 Sidley Austin                        46          13
 16 WilmerHale                           12           4
 17 Latham & Watkins                     12          16
 18 Arnold & Porter                       3           5
 19 Jones Day                            39          25
 20 White & Case                         43          19
 21 Sherman & Sterling                                 ???
 22 O'Melveny & [deleted]                    23          12
 23 Quinn Emanuel                        13           8
 24 Ropes & Gray                         22          10
 25 Hogan & Hartson                      13          10
 26 Clifford Chance                                    ???
 27 Morrison Foerster                    20          10
 28 Mayer Brown                          27           9
 29 Linklaters                                         ???
 30 Boies, Schiller & Flexner             0           0
 31 Millbank                             23          22
 32 Paul Hastings                        20           7
 33 Akin Gump                            12          12
 34 Fried Frank                          29          16
 35 Winston & Strawn                     20           6
 36 Allen & Overy                                      ???
 37 Willkie Farr & Gallagher             33          26
 38 Freshfields                                        ???
 39 Baker Botts                          12           3
 40 Munger, Tolles & Olson                0           0
 41 Orrick                               17          11
 42 Baker & McKenzie                      5           2
 43 Goodwin Proctor                      18           6
 44 DLA Piper                                          ???
 45 King & Spalding                      12           4
 46 Jenner & Block LLP                                 ???
 47 Dewey & LeBoeuf                                    ???
 48 Proskauer                             5          14
 49 Vinson & Elkins LLP                   1           4
 50 Irell & Manella LLP                   0           0

   Totals                              761         512


(note: a few firms allow only keyword searches to find the school, so BAs/MAs/etc. may be mistakenly included. should not radically alter the results.)
Last edited by starsong on Thu Feb 25, 2010 4:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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FlightoftheEarls
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Re: Fordham > GULC in NYC @ V50?

Postby FlightoftheEarls » Thu Feb 25, 2010 4:40 pm

Assuming these numbers to actually be what they are reported to be, and considering how many Georgetown grads probably aim for DC and how Fordham grads probably overwhelmingly aim for NYC, I think it's ultimately going to be rather hard to argue that Fordham places "better" relative to Georgetown, even though this is it's home market.

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D. H2Oman
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Re: Fordham > GULC in NYC @ V50?

Postby D. H2Oman » Thu Feb 25, 2010 4:40 pm

Try to think of the potential flaw in your reasoning, bro.

starsong
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Re: Fordham > GULC in NYC @ V50?

Postby starsong » Thu Feb 25, 2010 4:43 pm

No argument here, just an observation. You could argue this shows self-selection by GULC grads to DC, you could also argue that firms prefer GULC grads for non-NYC positions. It's just an interesting data set.
Last edited by starsong on Thu Feb 25, 2010 4:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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im_blue
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Re: Fordham > GULC in NYC @ V50?

Postby im_blue » Thu Feb 25, 2010 4:44 pm

Fordham places 88% of their graduates in the NY/NJ/PA region, so probably 80% are in NYC. In contrast, GULC probably places about 20-25% in NYC. So Fordham places roughly 3-4 times as many graduates as GULC into NYC, but only 50% more into V50.

270910
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Re: Fordham > GULC in NYC @ V50?

Postby 270910 » Thu Feb 25, 2010 4:48 pm

starsong wrote:No argument here, just an observation. You could argue this shows self-selection by GULC grads to DC, you could also argue that firms prefer GULC grads for non-NYC positions. It's just an interesting data set.


Hint: One of the things you said is true, the other is not true. See if you can figure out which is which!

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D. H2Oman
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Re: Fordham > GULC in NYC @ V50?

Postby D. H2Oman » Thu Feb 25, 2010 4:50 pm

starsong wrote:No argument here, just an observation. You could argue this shows self-selection by GULC grads to DC, you could also argue that firms prefer GULC grads for non-NYC positions. It's just an interesting data set.


So, you admit that your title is deceiving and your thread is as useless as the ones created by Reasonabledoubt. Good.

starsong
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Re: Fordham > GULC in NYC @ V50?

Postby starsong » Thu Feb 25, 2010 4:53 pm

disco_barred wrote:
starsong wrote:No argument here, just an observation. You could argue this shows self-selection by GULC grads to DC, you could also argue that firms prefer GULC grads for non-NYC positions. It's just an interesting data set.


Hint: One of the things you said is true, the other is not true. See if you can figure out which is which!


Both may be true. GULC grads prefer D.C.->more GULC alumni in D.C.->more GULC grads preferred in D.C. hiring.

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Rock Chalk
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Re: Fordham > GULC in NYC @ V50?

Postby Rock Chalk » Thu Feb 25, 2010 4:55 pm

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Last edited by Rock Chalk on Wed May 16, 2012 1:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Zapatero
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Re: Fordham > GULC in NYC @ V50?

Postby Zapatero » Thu Feb 25, 2010 4:55 pm

It's important to note when these people graduated from law school and were hired. Fordham places well in NYC, but I bet if you compared GULC and Fordham over the last, say, 5 years, the data would tell a different story.

starsong
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Re: Fordham > GULC in NYC @ V50?

Postby starsong » Thu Feb 25, 2010 4:56 pm

D. H2Oman wrote:
starsong wrote:No argument here, just an observation. You could argue this shows self-selection by GULC grads to DC, you could also argue that firms prefer GULC grads for non-NYC positions. It's just an interesting data set.


So, you admit that your title is deceiving and your thread is as useless as the ones created by Reasonabledoubt. Good.


The title was clear. It's even more explicit now.
Last edited by starsong on Thu Feb 25, 2010 5:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

starsong
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Re: Fordham > GULC in NYC @ V50?

Postby starsong » Thu Feb 25, 2010 4:57 pm

Zapatero wrote:It's important to note when these people graduated from law school and were hired. Fordham places well in NYC, but I bet if you compared GULC and Fordham over the last, say, 5 years, the data would tell a different story.


Great point. A comparison of only associates would also be interesting.

starsong
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Re: Fordham > GULC in NYC @ V50?

Postby starsong » Thu Feb 25, 2010 5:02 pm

im_blue wrote:Fordham places 88% of their graduates in the NY/NJ/PA region, so probably 80% are in NYC. In contrast, GULC probably places about 20-25% in NYC. So Fordham places roughly 3-4 times as many graduates as GULC into NYC, but only 50% more into V50.


GULC "Quick Facts" reports 28% in NYC: http://www.law.georgetown.edu/admissions/QuickFacts.htm

Admittedly, not a huge difference, but "3-4 times" seems slightly exaggerated.

270910
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Re: Fordham # of attorneys > GULC # of attorneys in NYC @ V50?

Postby 270910 » Thu Feb 25, 2010 5:03 pm

Look, in an average (neither boom nor bust) year median @ GULC has a solid, solid shot at NYC BIGLAW. Median Fordham student? Not so much.

starsong
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Re: Fordham > GULC in NYC @ V50?

Postby starsong » Thu Feb 25, 2010 5:13 pm

im_blue wrote:Fordham places 88% of their graduates in the NY/NJ/PA region, so probably 80% are in NYC. In contrast, GULC probably places about 20-25% in NYC. So Fordham places roughly 3-4 times as many graduates as GULC into NYC, but only 50% more into V50.


Also, GULC has a larger class size than Fordham. So you can't just compare %s.

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Rock Chalk
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Re: Fordham > GULC in NYC @ V50?

Postby Rock Chalk » Thu Feb 25, 2010 5:15 pm

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Last edited by Rock Chalk on Wed May 16, 2012 1:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Fordham > GULC in NYC @ V50?

Postby 270910 » Thu Feb 25, 2010 5:16 pm

Rock Chalk wrote:http://www.law.georgetown.edu/admissions/QuickFacts.htm
http://law.fordham.edu/career-planning/1780.htm

28% of about 600 (Georgetown) = ~168
87% of about 500 (Fordham) = ~ 435

So, it's more like Fordham puts 2-3 times as many into NYC, with only 50% more in V50.

(The class sizes are approximate, but both were rounded up to be fair)


math ftw

starsong
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Re: Fordham > GULC in NYC @ V50?

Postby starsong » Thu Feb 25, 2010 7:31 pm

Rock Chalk wrote:http://www.law.georgetown.edu/admissions/QuickFacts.htm
http://law.fordham.edu/career-planning/1780.htm

28% of about 600 (Georgetown) = ~168
87% of about 500 (Fordham) = ~ 435

So, it's more like Fordham puts 2-3 times as many into NYC, with only 50% more in V50.

(The class sizes are approximate, but both were rounded up to be fair)


87% is mid-Atlantic, which includes Philly. Let's assume 80% for NYC.

Also, latest graduating class sizes (from http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/law%20sc ... page12.pdf):

Georgetown - 676
Fordham - 470

28% of 676 - ~190
80% of 470 - ~376

Fordham puts ~2x as many graduates as GULC in NYC, and has ~1.5x as many graduates as GULC in V50 NYC offices.

I'm not arguing that Fordham places better than GULC nationwide. Fordham's V50 NYC presence is impressive, however--who would have thought that for every GULC grad at Cravath--#2 firm in the nation (and no D.C. office)--there are nearly two Fordham grads?

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im_blue
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Re: Fordham > GULC in NYC @ V50?

Postby im_blue » Thu Feb 25, 2010 7:40 pm

starsong wrote:
Rock Chalk wrote:http://www.law.georgetown.edu/admissions/QuickFacts.htm
http://law.fordham.edu/career-planning/1780.htm

28% of about 600 (Georgetown) = ~168
87% of about 500 (Fordham) = ~ 435

So, it's more like Fordham puts 2-3 times as many into NYC, with only 50% more in V50.

(The class sizes are approximate, but both were rounded up to be fair)


87% is mid-Atlantic, which includes Philly. Let's assume 80% for NYC.

Also, latest graduating class sizes (from http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/law%20sc ... page12.pdf):

Georgetown - 676
Fordham - 470

28% of 676 - ~190
80% of 470 - ~376

Fordham puts ~2x as many graduates as GULC in NYC, and has ~1.5x as many graduates as GULC in V50 NYC offices.

I'm not arguing that Fordham places better than GULC nationwide. Fordham's V50 NYC presence is impressive, however--who would have thought that for every GULC grad at Cravath--#2 firm in the nation (and no D.C. office)--there are nearly two Fordham grads?


Yeah my math up there was off (didn't take into account class sizes), but it looks like Fordham places about 75% as well as GULC into V50 on a per-capita basis, which sounds about right given the difference in rank.

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Re: Fordham > GULC in NYC @ V50?

Postby starsong » Thu Feb 25, 2010 8:03 pm

im_blue wrote:Yeah my math up there was off (didn't take into account class sizes), but it looks like Fordham places about 75% as well as GULC into V50 on a per-capita basis, which sounds about right given the difference in rank.


A T30 placing 75% as well as a T-14 into NYC V50 still seems quite impressive. It'd be interesting to compare across the V100 and NLJ250...

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Re: Fordham # of attorneys > GULC # of attorneys in NYC @ V50?

Postby OperaSoprano » Fri Feb 26, 2010 5:02 pm

I'm just taking a break from writing my appellate brief to find... good things, generally. I'm a fan of GULC, though I declined to send an EA transfer app. I don't think Fordham needs to be defended any more than has already been done. It's not a T14, but it's damn good for that which it is, and the idea of leaving for GULC seemed unnecessary to me, since NYC is where I want to stay, and I love it here.

For the record, we do know how Fordham and GULC stack up nationally. This is from my school's website, and the methodology is as follows:

Methodology: “Top firms” identified using the 2009 AmLaw100 sorted by average partner compensation from the 2009 AmLaw100 Database (Downloadable File) purchased online from the American Lawyer. Law School graduates at top firms identified through “Martindale Hubbell Listings, All” database of LexisNexis, identifying every attorney from any of the top firms who graduated from a particular law school. Retrieved June 2009.

Image

I don't know what the numbers would look like for the V50 nationally. If someone had the time to do this, it would be interesting to see. The closest thing we have is this, and it's impartial, though it's from 2008:

http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2008job_biglaw.shtml

Leiter placed Fordham at #15. Due to conflagration in the NYC market, the Boston and DC schools had better luck in 2009. We are hoping for a better year and a better OCI in August; according to friends in V5 firms (here in New York), recruiters have started calling again, so that hope may be justified.

starsong
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Re: Fordham # of attorneys > GULC # of attorneys in NYC @ V50?

Postby starsong » Fri Feb 26, 2010 7:13 pm

OperaSoprano wrote:...I don't know what the numbers would look like for the V50 nationally. If someone had the time to do this, it would be interesting to see...

Thanks for this data!

There's no question that GULC is far stronger than Fordham nationally, although I agree it would be interesting to see the degree of difference across the V50.

In NYC, however, the results of Fordham vs. GULC across the V100 are even more interesting. The below data shows that while Fordham sends ~2X as many graduates as Georgetown to NYC, it manages to place 1.8X as many in V100 NYC firm offices. Put differently, Fordham's relative strength vs. Georgetown in V100 NYC = 90%, a sign of its strong regional reputation and alumni base.

Code: Select all

Fordham vs. Georgetown - NYC Attorneys

                            Fordham  Georgetown
   Class size                     470       676
   % to NYC (approx.)             80%       28%
   # to NYC (approx.)             376       189
   % (# FLS / # x)                         199%

   V5                             110        90
   V5 % (FLS V5 # / x V5 #)                122%
   V5 %/%                                   62%
   V10                            232       194
   V10 % (FLS V10 # / x V10 #)             120%
   V10 %/%                                  60%
   V50                            761       512
   V50 % (FLS V50 # / x V50 #)             149%
   V50 %/%                                  75%
   V100                          1292       723
   V100 % (FLS V100 # / x V100 #)          179%
   V100 %/%                                 90%

                            Fordham  Georgetown
  1Wachtell                         4         4
  2Cravath                         28        16
  3Skadden                         44        35
  4S&C                             10         2
  5Davis Polk                      24        33
  6Weil Gotshal                    60        40
  7Simpson Thatcher                29        31
  8Cleary Gottlieb                  9        10
  9Covington & Burling              5         2
 10Kirkland & Ellis                19        21
 11Williams & Connoley              0         0
 12Debevoise & Plimpton            18        14
 13Paul Weiss                      20        20
 14Gibson Dunn                     11        10
 15Sidley Austin                   46        13
 16WilmerHale                      12         4
 17Latham & Watkins                12        16
 18Arnold & Porter                  3         5
 19Jones Day                       39        25
 20White & Case                    43        19
 21Sherman & Sterling       ???      ???
 22O'Melveny & [deleted]               23        12
 23Quinn Emanuel                   13         8
 24Ropes & Gray                    22        10
 25Hogan & Hartson                 13        10
 26Clifford Chance          ???      ???
 27Morrison Foerster               20        10
 28Mayer Brown                     27         9
 29Linklaters               ???      ???
 30Boies, Schiller & Flexner        0         0
 31Millbank                        23        22
 32Paul Hastings                   20         7
 33Akin Gump                       12        12
 34Fried Frank                     29        16
 35Winston & Strawn                20         6
 36Allen & Overy            ???      ???
 37Willkie Farr & Gallagher        33        26
 38Freshfields              ???      ???
 39Baker Botts                     12         3
 40Munger, Tolles & Olson           0         0
 41Orrick                          17        11
 42Baker & McKenzie                 5         2
 43Goodwin Proctor                 18         6
 44DLA Piper                ???      ???
 45King & Spalding                 12         4
 46Jenner & Block LLP       ???      ???
 47Dewey & LeBoeuf          ???      ???
 48Proskauer                        5        14
 49Vinson & Elkins LLP              1         4
 50Irell & Manella LLP              0         0
 51Fulbright                       11         5
 52Wilson Sonsini           ???      ???
 53Morgan Lewis                    20         8
 54McDermott Will & Emery           9        10
 55Alston & Bird                   13         4
 56Bingham McCutchen               14        11
 57Fish & Richardson                3         1
 58Dechert                         12        11
 59Greenberg Traurig               17         8
 60Cawalader                       34        17
 61Cooley Godward                   4         3
 62Pillsbury                        4         4
 63Sonnenschein                    24         9
 64Cahill                          40         9
 65Holland & Knight                 6         1
 66K&L Gates                       14         8
 67Nixon Peabody            ???      ???
 68Foley & Lardner                  3         1
 69Kaye Scholer                    36        16
 70Steptoe & Johnson                1         4
 71Reed Smith                       2         0
 72Bryan Cave                      20         4
 73Perkins Cole                     0         0
 74Hunton & Williams                8         2
 75Patton Boggs                     2         0
 76Arent Fox                ???      ???
 77Schulte Roth             ???      ???
 78Howrey                           5         2
 79Chadbourne & Parke              32        17
 80Crowell & Moring                 9         0
 81Katten Muchin                   24         9
 82McGuireWoods             ???      ???
 83Baker Hostetler                  6         7
 84Dickenstein Shapiro             11         0
 85Veneable                         7         6
 86Locke Lord Bissell & Lidd        8         2
 87Bracewell Giuliani               3         2
 88Dorsey & Whitney                 4         2
 89Finnegan                         0         0
 90Hughes Hubbard & Reed           16         2
 91Stroock                          7         1
 92Blank Rome                      11         3
 93Seyfarth Shaw                    5         2
 94Kramer Levin Naftalis & F       36        11
 95Manatt                           3         0
 96Squire Sanders                   3         1
 97Sheppard Mullin                  7         1
 98Patterson Belknap               25         4
 99Wiley Rein                       0         0
100Mintz Levin                     12         3

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OperaSoprano
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Re: Fordham # of attorneys > GULC # of attorneys in NYC @ V50?

Postby OperaSoprano » Fri Feb 26, 2010 8:46 pm

starsong wrote:
OperaSoprano wrote:...I don't know what the numbers would look like for the V50 nationally. If someone had the time to do this, it would be interesting to see...

Thanks for this data!

There's no question that GULC is far stronger than Fordham nationally, although I agree it would be interesting to see the degree of difference across the V50.

In NYC, however, the results of Fordham vs. GULC across the V100 are even more interesting. The below data shows that while Fordham sends ~2X as many graduates as Georgetown to NYC, it manages to place 1.8X as many in V100 NYC firm offices. Put differently, Fordham's relative strength vs. Georgetown in V100 NYC = 90%, a sign of its strong regional reputation and alumni base.



Wonderful! Thank you for the epic math win. I see the firm I "had a crush on" previously... It looks like a few Fordham alumni are working there. Goodness me.

*Goes back to working on brief with a will*




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