Interesting vid on urm lsats and admissions

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dailygrind
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Re: Interesting vid on urm lsats and admissions

Postby dailygrind » Fri Feb 26, 2010 4:13 pm

The future system of no LSAT is a speculative future. I really, really doubt that it'll be the norm. Why get rid of one of the best tools they've got?

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Reedie
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Re: Interesting vid on urm lsats and admissions

Postby Reedie » Fri Feb 26, 2010 4:19 pm

What they really need to do is:

1) Collectively refuse to participate in the USNWR ranking.
2) Create their own ranking that is more useful to students.

Unfortunately I doubt they will ever do either.

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ogman05
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Re: Interesting vid on urm lsats and admissions

Postby ogman05 » Fri Feb 26, 2010 4:42 pm

dailygrind wrote:The future system of no LSAT is a speculative future. I really, really doubt that it'll be the norm. Why get rid of one of the best tools they've got?


TCR. I feel the same why. It is their best predictor. It really sounds like specualtion and I would be really surprised if this came about. TLS' world would come crashing down.


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Mattalones
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Re: Interesting vid on urm lsats and admissions

Postby Mattalones » Sun Mar 28, 2010 8:19 pm

Reedie wrote:What they really need to do is:

1) Collectively refuse to participate in the USNWR ranking.
2) Create their own ranking that is more useful to students.

Unfortunately I doubt they will ever do either.

That would make sense, wouldn't it.

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Langfall
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Re: Interesting vid on urm lsats and admissions

Postby Langfall » Mon Mar 29, 2010 7:54 am

ArthurEdens

I agree with you to a degree. I attended a poverty stricken middle school in which minorities were the majority. I also attended an excellent top-notch private high school. The quality of education was definitely superior at the private school. That being said, during my schooling at the middle school there was already a clear racial stratification in student achievement. From my first hand experiences, the minority students were far more likely to come from poor, broken homes. They'd attack teachers, bring weapons to school, not do homework, etc. Minorities that spoke clearly and intelligently were taunted for "sounding white." Education was not valued. During my ride into school I'd see people being arrested in the same slums where my classmates were living. If we are ever going to see the racial divide shrink, I think that problems closer to home must be solved.


Ive been reading everyone's opinion on this and I do agree with Arthur that school and the difference in cultural upbringing may have a great deal to do with standardized testing abilities starting from a very young age. I also went to a subpar middle school and quickly learned that being intelligent wasnt a good predictor for coolness and a lively social life. So if you want to fit it you adapt. Those who are "good" kids may keep their heads down and those who are "bad" may continue to be on this way a) to maintain rep's and social standing and b) due to their way of living they see no point in trying to aim for something they feel they have little to no chance of getting (i.e college ed). I believe there is a high correlation across races of a subsequent generation attending college if the prior one did.

As to the testing gap though, I wonder if the general gap difference is still the same when looking at the testing environments. Say if you were to have an equal grouping of students (one group where all the students are white another that is all black) and the groups share the same socioeconomic class, levels of quality education, LSAT preparation, etc.. Each person in either group is relatively calm and comfortable with the environment (say a large but simple room) and their other test mates whom they have known for X amount of years, plus they have procters who are of their respective races. Would these variables affect test scores?
I ask this because I recall a psyc experience (sadly I cant find it right now) where they took a group of people all of equal level and gave them tests of equal difficulty only to find out that variables such as who was taking the test alongside them seemed to affect the person's psyche and thus their score. The example that I remembered was that there was a group of females taking a math test. In general they all had very high marks but when males were introduced and they were again all given a math test of equal difficulty the females suddenly did a lot worst than they had previously. I think there was a similar case with Caucasian males and then Asian males were entered into the equation. I wish I could find the specific test but ...

rando
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Re: Interesting vid on urm lsats and admissions

Postby rando » Mon Mar 29, 2010 8:20 am

Langfall wrote:
ArthurEdens

I agree with you to a degree. I attended a poverty stricken middle school in which minorities were the majority. I also attended an excellent top-notch private high school. The quality of education was definitely superior at the private school. That being said, during my schooling at the middle school there was already a clear racial stratification in student achievement. From my first hand experiences, the minority students were far more likely to come from poor, broken homes. They'd attack teachers, bring weapons to school, not do homework, etc. Minorities that spoke clearly and intelligently were taunted for "sounding white." Education was not valued. During my ride into school I'd see people being arrested in the same slums where my classmates were living. If we are ever going to see the racial divide shrink, I think that problems closer to home must be solved.


Ive been reading everyone's opinion on this and I do agree with Arthur that school and the difference in cultural upbringing may have a great deal to do with standardized testing abilities starting from a very young age. I also went to a subpar middle school and quickly learned that being intelligent wasnt a good predictor for coolness and a lively social life. So if you want to fit it you adapt. Those who are "good" kids may keep their heads down and those who are "bad" may continue to be on this way a) to maintain rep's and social standing and b) due to their way of living they see no point in trying to aim for something they feel they have little to no chance of getting (i.e college ed). I believe there is a high correlation across races of a subsequent generation attending college if the prior one did.



The testing gap statistics control for SES status. Not that the above are Ok. Just saying it doesn't solve the testing gap problem.

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r2b2ct
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Re: Interesting vid on urm lsats and admissions

Postby r2b2ct » Mon Mar 29, 2010 8:49 am

It would be interesting to see which questions are thrown out due to bias.

rando
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Re: Interesting vid on urm lsats and admissions

Postby rando » Mon Mar 29, 2010 8:59 am

r2b2ct wrote:It would be interesting to see which questions are thrown out due to bias.


I'm pretty sure he said it almost never happens and the ones that it did actually favored URM. That would certainly be interesting.

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Langfall
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Re: Interesting vid on urm lsats and admissions

Postby Langfall » Mon Mar 29, 2010 12:02 pm

rando wrote:
Langfall wrote:
ArthurEdens

I agree with you to a degree. I attended a poverty stricken middle school in which minorities were the majority. I also attended an excellent top-notch private high school. The quality of education was definitely superior at the private school. That being said, during my schooling at the middle school there was already a clear racial stratification in student achievement. From my first hand experiences, the minority students were far more likely to come from poor, broken homes. They'd attack teachers, bring weapons to school, not do homework, etc. Minorities that spoke clearly and intelligently were taunted for "sounding white." Education was not valued. During my ride into school I'd see people being arrested in the same slums where my classmates were living. If we are ever going to see the racial divide shrink, I think that problems closer to home must be solved.


Ive been reading everyone's opinion on this and I do agree with Arthur that school and the difference in cultural upbringing may have a great deal to do with standardized testing abilities starting from a very young age. I also went to a subpar middle school and quickly learned that being intelligent wasnt a good predictor for coolness and a lively social life. So if you want to fit it you adapt. Those who are "good" kids may keep their heads down and those who are "bad" may continue to be on this way a) to maintain rep's and social standing and b) due to their way of living they see no point in trying to aim for something they feel they have little to no chance of getting (i.e college ed). I believe there is a high correlation across races of a subsequent generation attending college if the prior one did.



The testing gap statistics control for SES status. Not that the above are Ok. Just saying it doesn't solve the testing gap problem.


Yea but I was talking about a number of other factors beyond socioeconomic status. SES status would be a control. The lack of diversity in the testing environment would be the variable. Im more curious as to if testing conditions effect the psyche and therefore grades and thus this gap.

rando
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Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2010 1:57 pm

Re: Interesting vid on urm lsats and admissions

Postby rando » Mon Mar 29, 2010 1:25 pm

Langfall wrote:
rando wrote:
Langfall wrote:
ArthurEdens

I agree with you to a degree. I attended a poverty stricken middle school in which minorities were the majority. I also attended an excellent top-notch private high school. The quality of education was definitely superior at the private school. That being said, during my schooling at the middle school there was already a clear racial stratification in student achievement. From my first hand experiences, the minority students were far more likely to come from poor, broken homes. They'd attack teachers, bring weapons to school, not do homework, etc. Minorities that spoke clearly and intelligently were taunted for "sounding white." Education was not valued. During my ride into school I'd see people being arrested in the same slums where my classmates were living. If we are ever going to see the racial divide shrink, I think that problems closer to home must be solved.


Ive been reading everyone's opinion on this and I do agree with Arthur that school and the difference in cultural upbringing may have a great deal to do with standardized testing abilities starting from a very young age. I also went to a subpar middle school and quickly learned that being intelligent wasnt a good predictor for coolness and a lively social life. So if you want to fit it you adapt. Those who are "good" kids may keep their heads down and those who are "bad" may continue to be on this way a) to maintain rep's and social standing and b) due to their way of living they see no point in trying to aim for something they feel they have little to no chance of getting (i.e college ed). I believe there is a high correlation across races of a subsequent generation attending college if the prior one did.



The testing gap statistics control for SES status. Not that the above are Ok. Just saying it doesn't solve the testing gap problem.


Yea but I was talking about a number of other factors beyond socioeconomic status. SES status would be a control. The lack of diversity in the testing environment would be the variable. Im more curious as to if testing conditions effect the psyche and therefore grades and thus this gap.


That is certainly interesting in and of itself. But as to the "problem." URM's that are brought up in affluent communities still score a standard deviation lower. These kids have grown up with, socialized with, and tested with whites their entire lives.
It is interesting to note the studies you mentioned on women, though. If that transferred over to race, it could account for some of the gap.





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