Interesting vid on urm lsats and admissions

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MC Southstar
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Re: Interesting vid on urm lsats and admissions

Postby MC Southstar » Fri Feb 26, 2010 12:33 pm

nycparalegal wrote:The most interesting question raised by the video is the following: why are African Americans mis-applying to law school?


Likely answer: unpredictable cycles lead to reaching for a larger number of schools to game the odds.

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Re: Interesting vid on urm lsats and admissions

Postby nycparalegal » Fri Feb 26, 2010 12:37 pm

MC Southstar wrote:
nycparalegal wrote:The most interesting question raised by the video is the following: why are African Americans mis-applying to law school?


Likely answer: unpredictable cycles lead to reaching for a larger number of schools to game the odds.


But if that were the case, then you're saying they would have some schools that they were accepted into (safety/target schools), and decided not to go.

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Re: Interesting vid on urm lsats and admissions

Postby MC Southstar » Fri Feb 26, 2010 12:40 pm

nycparalegal wrote:
MC Southstar wrote:
nycparalegal wrote:The most interesting question raised by the video is the following: why are African Americans mis-applying to law school?


Likely answer: unpredictable cycles lead to reaching for a larger number of schools to game the odds.


But if that were the case, then you're saying they would have some schools that they were accepted into (safety/target schools), and decided not to go.


I'm say that whereas a non-URM often applies to a normalized distribution of schools (a few, safeties, some targets or near reaches, a few desperate reaches) because there is adequate and predictive data, a URM could be inclined to choose a much higher proportion of reach schools due to the fact that there is less predictability in their admissions cycles, but they can essentially cheat the system by playing the field and strike gold somewhere beyond where their numbers would normally land them. Therefore, as an aggregate, their admissions cycle will reflect a significant URM boost, but they could easily get rejected at a larger percentage of schools due to extreme reaching. URM cycles don't seem to indicate that just because they have X/X numbers, they are guaranteed to get into a school they are at 25ths for. There is a lot of randomness in their admissions process, which necessitates playing the field.
Last edited by MC Southstar on Fri Feb 26, 2010 12:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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dailygrind
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Re: Interesting vid on urm lsats and admissions

Postby dailygrind » Fri Feb 26, 2010 12:41 pm

ogman05 wrote:What is "greater validity"? Just because someone has a 42 minute lecture they are not going to mention every single thing that has been researched for over half a century. that whole premise you have been using is complete fail. Second you cant complare across law schools which is why your "equivalency" argument doesnt work. If they did that then there would be no point in using the lsat for admissions criteria at all. Maybe, just maybe in peer schools but not all schools becuase of a thing called a curve and no std grading system that applies universally across all schools taking ALL law school students into consideration. Your third paragraph makes not sense to me and soundsd like you are just shooting out statistics terms.


Greater validity almost certainly means a higher r^2. I don't see why he wouldn't mention the bias if it exists. It would be a central point to this discussion. Not mentioning it would be like Johnny Cochran strolling into the OJ trial and not mentioning the glove. Is it conceivable? Yes. Is it likely? No. The premise is sound. We'll probably both be at UVA next year though, so we can ask the Professor about it when we get there.

I know you can't compare across law schools very well, that's why the predictive power of the LSAT is so low. But you can still do it. What do you think the tests they use right now are based off of?

My third paragraph is fine. Well, I misplaced one decimal point, so maybe that misled you. I've edited it to change the one decimal. However, if you reread it and think I'm just shooting off statistics terms, I don't know what to say to you.

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Mattalones
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Re: Interesting vid on urm lsats and admissions

Postby Mattalones » Fri Feb 26, 2010 12:46 pm

Did anyone else notice the invalid inference in the video?: "What's true of the parts must be true of the whole."

No individual question on the LSAT is biased
So, the LSAT is not biased.

I find it ironic that the LSAT teaches us not to allow this type of inference, but the person who ran LSAC made that inference ... Burned! :oops:

Here are easier instances of it:

No individual employee at company X is rich
So, company X is not rich.

No individual person in the locker room is super-stinky
So, the locker room is not super stinky

No individual words in this book are complicated.
So, this book is not complicated.

No member of governing body X has committed blatantly immoral acts
So, governing body X has never committed blatantly immoral acts.

... Revisiting the argument in the video:
No individual question on the LSAT is biased
So, the LSAT is not biased.

I think that you guys get the picture.
Last edited by Mattalones on Fri Feb 26, 2010 12:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Interesting vid on urm lsats and admissions

Postby scribelaw » Fri Feb 26, 2010 12:46 pm

farewelltoarms wrote:Wow watched whole vid pretty interesting.

The very bit at the end, getting rid of the lsat? Omgz, that would be crazy. I can't even how law schools would choose between applicants.....


I was floored by that, too.

I wonder if that's true?

That would be monumentally stupid. There would be no objective basis for comparing applicants.

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Re: Interesting vid on urm lsats and admissions

Postby 09042014 » Fri Feb 26, 2010 12:50 pm

--LinkRemoved-- Page 62. This has already been calculated. Black and Hispanic students do very nearly as well (in Tier 1 schools) as their LSAT and GPA say they will.

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Re: Interesting vid on urm lsats and admissions

Postby 09042014 » Fri Feb 26, 2010 12:52 pm

scribelaw wrote:
farewelltoarms wrote:Wow watched whole vid pretty interesting.

The very bit at the end, getting rid of the lsat? Omgz, that would be crazy. I can't even how law schools would choose between applicants.....


I was floored by that, too.

I wonder if that's true?

That would be monumentally stupid. There would be no objective basis for comparing applicants.


Michigan, Illinois and Alabama have already started programs where their own undergrads get accepted without taking the LSAT. Northwestern allows AJD and JD/MBA candidates to take the Gmat instead.

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dailygrind
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Re: Interesting vid on urm lsats and admissions

Postby dailygrind » Fri Feb 26, 2010 12:57 pm

Desert Fox wrote:http://www.law.ucla.edu/sander/Systemic/final/SanderFINAL.pdf Page 62. This has already been calculated. Black and Hispanic students do very nearly as well (in Tier 1 schools) as their LSAT and GPA say they will.


Ah. The fine smell of my arguments being validated.

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Re: Interesting vid on urm lsats and admissions

Postby nycparalegal » Fri Feb 26, 2010 1:18 pm

MC Southstar wrote:
nycparalegal wrote:
MC Southstar wrote:
nycparalegal wrote:The most interesting question raised by the video is the following: why are African Americans mis-applying to law school?


Likely answer: unpredictable cycles lead to reaching for a larger number of schools to game the odds.


But if that were the case, then you're saying they would have some schools that they were accepted into (safety/target schools), and decided not to go.


I'm say that whereas a non-URM often applies to a normalized distribution of schools (a few, safeties, some targets or near reaches, a few desperate reaches) because there is adequate and predictive data, a URM could be inclined to choose a much higher proportion of reach schools due to the fact that there is less predictability in their admissions cycles, but they can essentially cheat the system by playing the field and strike gold somewhere beyond where their numbers would normally land them. Therefore, as an aggregate, their admissions cycle will reflect a significant URM boost, but they could easily get rejected at a larger percentage of schools due to extreme reaching. URM cycles don't seem to indicate that just because they have X/X numbers, they are guaranteed to get into a school they are at 25ths for. There is a lot of randomness in their admissions process, which necessitates playing the field.


Right, but in the video it was stated the biggest problem for African American representation in the legal field is matriculation rather than application into law schools. So those who apply to a higher number of reach schools, decide not to go to law school if they get into their saftey or target schools?

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Re: Interesting vid on urm lsats and admissions

Postby Mattalones » Fri Feb 26, 2010 1:22 pm

Desert Fox wrote:http://www.law.ucla.edu/sander/Systemic/final/SanderFINAL.pdf Page 62. This has already been calculated. Black and Hispanic students do very nearly as well (in Tier 1 schools) as their LSAT and GPA say they will.

That section basically says that URMs do bad in LS b/c of low LSAT, not because of disadvantaged educational experiences. They forgot that performace in standarized tests has a whole hell of a lot to do with ones quality of educational experiences ... O man! :roll:

Source 1) Read the first three bullet points under "fact 8."

Source 2) Low quality schools usually means low performance, even in other countries

Source 3) This article gets into teacher quality = school quality (not its primary focus though), and either type of quality links strongly to student performance.

There are way more sources on this ...

Shouldn't need these sources though ... Think about it:
A) 18 - 22 years of not being challenged in school
B) a couple months prepping for a 3 hour test

Which is going to have a bigger impact on how one does in MORE SCHOOL (i.e. LS)? The article quoted above says that (B) will :?

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MC Southstar
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Re: Interesting vid on urm lsats and admissions

Postby MC Southstar » Fri Feb 26, 2010 1:25 pm

nycparalegal wrote:Right, but in the video it was stated the biggest problem for African American representation in the legal field is matriculation rather than application into law schools. So those who apply to a higher number of reach schools, decide not to go to law school if they get into their saftey or target schools?


Oh, I thought you were referring to higher rejection rates. I can't really make a good assumption about why matriculation would be a problem.. I want to assume it is an economic reason, but I won't be so presumptuous.

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Re: Interesting vid on urm lsats and admissions

Postby nycparalegal » Fri Feb 26, 2010 1:29 pm

MC Southstar wrote:
nycparalegal wrote:Right, but in the video it was stated the biggest problem for African American representation in the legal field is matriculation rather than application into law schools. So those who apply to a higher number of reach schools, decide not to go to law school if they get into their saftey or target schools?


Oh, I thought you were referring to higher rejection rates. I can't really make a good assumption about why matriculation would be a problem.. I want to assume it is an economic reason, but I won't be so presumptuous.


Yea that fact really made me stop and think. Although, it might have something to do with the the following advice that I got for law school: either get $$$ from TTT or get into a t-14.

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Re: Interesting vid on urm lsats and admissions

Postby 09042014 » Fri Feb 26, 2010 1:35 pm

Mattalones wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:http://www.law.ucla.edu/sander/Systemic/final/SanderFINAL.pdf Page 62. This has already been calculated. Black and Hispanic students do very nearly as well (in Tier 1 schools) as their LSAT and GPA say they will.

That section basically says that URMs do bad in LS b/c of low LSAT, not because of disadvantaged educational experiences. They forgot that performace in standarized tests has a whole hell of a lot to do with ones quality of educational experiences ... O man! :roll:

Source 1) Read the first three bullet points under "fact 8."

Source 2) Low quality schools usually means low performance, even in other countries

Source 3) This article gets into teacher quality = school quality (not its primary focus though), and either type of quality links strongly to student performance.

There are way more sources on this ...

Shouldn't need these sources though ... Think about it:
A) 18 - 22 years of not being challenged in school
B) a couple months prepping for a 3 hour test

Which is going to have a bigger impact on how one does in MORE SCHOOL (i.e. LS)? The article quoted above says that (B) will :?


Whatever is causing the under performance, it isn't unique to LSAT performance. This doesn't make the LSAT flawed, it means some factor is making them worse students on average.

Black test takers do worse than white test takers of the same socioeconomic back ground so it can't be that.

There has got to be another reason that hasn't been discovered yet.

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Re: Interesting vid on urm lsats and admissions

Postby ArthurEdens » Fri Feb 26, 2010 1:47 pm

Mattalones wrote:That section basically says that URMs do bad in LS b/c of low LSAT, not because of disadvantaged educational experiences. They forgot that performace in standarized tests has a whole hell of a lot to do with ones quality of educational experiences ... O man! :roll:

Source 1) Read the first three bullet points under "fact 8."

Source 2) Low quality schools usually means low performance, even in other countries

Source 3) This article gets into teacher quality = school quality (not its primary focus though), and either type of quality links strongly to student performance.

There are way more sources on this ...

Shouldn't need these sources though ... Think about it:
A) 18 - 22 years of not being challenged in school
B) a couple months prepping for a 3 hour test

Which is going to have a bigger impact on how one does in MORE SCHOOL (i.e. LS)? The article quoted above says that (B) will :?


I agree with you to a degree. I attended a poverty stricken middle school in which minorities were the majority. I also attended an excellent top-notch private high school. The quality of education was definitely superior at the private school. That being said, during my schooling at the middle school there was already a clear racial stratification in student achievement. From my first hand experiences, the minority students were far more likely to come from poor, broken homes. They'd attack teachers, bring weapons to school, not do homework, etc. Minorities that spoke clearly and intelligently were taunted for "sounding white." Education was not valued. During my ride into school I'd see people being arrested in the same slums where my classmates were living. If we are ever going to see the racial divide shrink, I think that problems closer to home must be solved.

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Re: Interesting vid on urm lsats and admissions

Postby nycparalegal » Fri Feb 26, 2010 1:52 pm

ArthurEdens

I agree with you to a degree. I attended a poverty stricken middle school in which minorities were the majority. I also attended an excellent top-notch private high school. The quality of education was definitely superior at the private school. That being said, during my schooling at the middle school there was already a clear racial stratification in student achievement. From my first hand experiences, the minority students were far more likely to come from poor, broken homes. They'd attack teachers, bring weapons to school, not do homework, etc. Minorities that spoke clearly and intelligently were taunted for "sounding white." Education was not valued. During my ride into school I'd see people being arrested in the same slums where my classmates were living. If we are ever going to see the racial divide shrink, I think that problems closer to home must be solved.


How is the state going to force people to become better parents?
Last edited by nycparalegal on Fri Feb 26, 2010 1:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Interesting vid on urm lsats and admissions

Postby 09042014 » Fri Feb 26, 2010 1:54 pm

nycparalegal wrote:[


When I become the human supreme I plan on implementing the plan in A Brave New World.

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Re: Interesting vid on urm lsats and admissions

Postby englawyer » Fri Feb 26, 2010 2:00 pm

nycparalegal wrote:
ArthurEdens

I agree with you to a degree. I attended a poverty stricken middle school in which minorities were the majority. I also attended an excellent top-notch private high school. The quality of education was definitely superior at the private school. That being said, during my schooling at the middle school there was already a clear racial stratification in student achievement. From my first hand experiences, the minority students were far more likely to come from poor, broken homes. They'd attack teachers, bring weapons to school, not do homework, etc. Minorities that spoke clearly and intelligently were taunted for "sounding white." Education was not valued. During my ride into school I'd see people being arrested in the same slums where my classmates were living. If we are ever going to see the racial divide shrink, I think that problems closer to home must be solved.


How is the state going to force people to become better parents?


affirmative action to give disadvantaged students a leg-up for a few generations. then after they get sucked-in/acclimated to upper/middle class culture, things will be fixed (theoretically).

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Re: Interesting vid on urm lsats and admissions

Postby nycparalegal » Fri Feb 26, 2010 2:00 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
nycparalegal wrote:[


When I become the human supreme I plan on implementing the plan in A Brave New World.


Seriously, what can we do?

I've had conversations very similar to this with my friends who teach in low-income neighborhoods, and it's always the same.

They have good kids, but they have a lot of bad kids who don't even try, cut school, physically threaten teachers. The bad kids don't study, and don't even care to be at the school.

All the state ends up doing is baby-sitting them.

e: By the way, all of the attention during class that is used on baby-sitting the bad kids takes away from the learning environment for the good kids in class.
Last edited by nycparalegal on Fri Feb 26, 2010 2:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Interesting vid on urm lsats and admissions

Postby Ragged » Fri Feb 26, 2010 2:01 pm

Great vid. Very interesting.


OMG free chipotle!

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Re: Interesting vid on urm lsats and admissions

Postby nycparalegal » Fri Feb 26, 2010 2:06 pm

englawyer wrote:
nycparalegal wrote:
ArthurEdens

I agree with you to a degree. I attended a poverty stricken middle school in which minorities were the majority. I also attended an excellent top-notch private high school. The quality of education was definitely superior at the private school. That being said, during my schooling at the middle school there was already a clear racial stratification in student achievement. From my first hand experiences, the minority students were far more likely to come from poor, broken homes. They'd attack teachers, bring weapons to school, not do homework, etc. Minorities that spoke clearly and intelligently were taunted for "sounding white." Education was not valued. During my ride into school I'd see people being arrested in the same slums where my classmates were living. If we are ever going to see the racial divide shrink, I think that problems closer to home must be solved.


How is the state going to force people to become better parents?


affirmative action to give disadvantaged students a leg-up for a few generations. then after they get sucked-in/acclimated to upper/middle class culture, things will be fixed (theoretically).


Affirmative action for all of the disadvantaged students?

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Re: Interesting vid on urm lsats and admissions

Postby chicoalto0649 » Fri Feb 26, 2010 2:07 pm

Mattalones wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:http://www.law.ucla.edu/sander/Systemic/final/SanderFINAL.pdf Page 62. This has already been calculated. Black and Hispanic students do very nearly as well (in Tier 1 schools) as their LSAT and GPA say they will.

That section basically says that URMs do bad in LS b/c of low LSAT, not because of disadvantaged educational experiences. They forgot that performace in standarized tests has a whole hell of a lot to do with ones quality of educational experiences ... O man! :roll:

Source 1) Read the first three bullet points under "fact 8."

Source 2) Low quality schools usually means low performance, even in other countries

Source 3) This article gets into teacher quality = school quality (not its primary focus though), and either type of quality links strongly to student performance.

There are way more sources on this ...

Shouldn't need these sources though ... Think about it:
A) 18 - 22 years of not being challenged in school
B) a couple months prepping for a 3 hour test

Which is going to have a bigger impact on how one does in MORE SCHOOL (i.e. LS)? The article quoted above says that (B) will :?



I haven't read the whole thing yet but the author isn't trying to make a causal argument (C: Low LSAT E: Bad grades). All he is trying to say is that the LSAT/GPA metric is fairly strong at predicting first year grade outcomes, regardless of race.

Blacks, for the most part, at top legal institutions have lower LSAT and GPA combos and his research shows that when put in an environment where most of their peers have considerably LSAT/GPA combos, they will end up at the bottom distribution of grades. Of course there are outliers but the GPA/LSAT metric is a very powerful predictive measurement.

Prof. Johnson would most certainly agree with this observation and the numbers are overwhelmingly there to back him up. I do not think this author cares WHY a black gets a lower LSAT, rather he is concerned about what happens during admissions and how preferential (i.e. non academic factors) disservice law school matriculants. I think this author would agree that the effects are mostly negative,not just for minorities, but anyone with subpar numbers who gets a leg up in admissions (think legacies and what not).
Last edited by chicoalto0649 on Fri Feb 26, 2010 2:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

09042014
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Re: Interesting vid on urm lsats and admissions

Postby 09042014 » Fri Feb 26, 2010 2:09 pm

nycparalegal wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
nycparalegal wrote:[


When I become the human supreme I plan on implementing the plan in A Brave New World.


Seriously, what can we do?

I've had conversations very similar to this with my friends who teach in low-income neighborhoods, and it's always the same.

They have good kids, but they have a lot of bad kids who don't even try, cut school, physically threaten teachers. The bad kids don't study, and don't even care to be at the school.

All the state ends up doing is baby-sitting them.

e: By the way, all of the attention during class that is used on baby-sitting the bad kids takes away from the learning environment for the good kids in class.


The government is already moving federally assisted low income living into the suburbs. They are closing down the projects in Chicago and are moving them into affluent areas in small numbers.

Basically forced relocation for the most poor. They put a couple low income apartments into a luxury apartment building so their children grow up in school with middle class children.

There could be an attempt to do this with people not living in government housing, but it would ridiculously politically incorrect. It would also destroy subcultures in minority populations. It would be a huge infringement of liberty and imo would probably fail.

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Re: Interesting vid on urm lsats and admissions

Postby nycparalegal » Fri Feb 26, 2010 2:17 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
The government is already moving federally assisted low income living into the suburbs. They are closing down the projects in Chicago and are moving them into affluent areas in small numbers.

Basically forced relocation for the most poor. They put a couple low income apartments into a luxury apartment building so their children grow up in school with middle class children.

There could be an attempt to do this with people not living in government housing, but it would ridiculously politically incorrect. It would also destroy subcultures in minority populations. It would be a huge infringement of liberty and imo would probably fail.


Oh man. Are you talking about the section 8 voucher program?

e: Read this: http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/arc ... tery/6872/

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Re: Interesting vid on urm lsats and admissions

Postby englawyer » Fri Feb 26, 2010 3:28 pm

nycparalegal wrote:Affirmative action for all of the disadvantaged students?


well if you believe that everyone born should have an equal chance at success based on their natural talents and skills rather than upbringing, yes. the odds are stacked against people from lower-economic strata of all races: worse schools, less-connected parents, worse school culture, different value systems (for example sports >> academics). someone's academic ability and achievement should be considered relative to how they were raised and whatnot.

at a minimum, law schools should at least keep the transparent and fair system of using mostly numbers for admissions standards. this way when a poor/disadvantaged person gets a low LSAT score and is therefore denied admission, he/she can point to the problem and identify the cause for denial. That is much better than this future system of no LSAT, where they will denied because they didn't go to the right college...because they grew up in the wrong neighborhood in the wrong city and attended the wrong high school...because their parents and family came from the wrong culture/socio-economic background/etc.




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