Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

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Informative
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby Informative » Mon Dec 27, 2010 5:44 pm

I agree. I think you need to exercise perspective and caution when looking at these rankings, but then again I think you need to do the same when looking at US News. If something doesn't feel right (Minnesota/WUSTL ranked higher than Fordham/GW/BC/BU in US News, for example), then the rankings should be taken with a grain of salt. Of course, they are the rankings so that doesn't necessarily make them wrong (it is what it is), but possibly inaccurate in the inferences you are supposed to draw.

2011Law
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby 2011Law » Fri Dec 31, 2010 8:30 am

Anyone know how UF places? My guess from looking at the other schools listed is that its about 15%, though probably lower ITE, so maybe closer to 10% is more likely?

tipler4213
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby tipler4213 » Fri Dec 31, 2010 9:59 am

This is all very interesting, even the constant bickering. This question will get mocked, but what are people's perceptions (or is there data) for how well schools place in government, i.e. DoJ, GC at DHS, etc.

(yes, i understand most people who end up in these offices likely get clerkships first, and yes, I understand there are other less debt-ridden routes to government other than law, and yes, I know international law doesn't exist, and yes, I know that you cannot count on doing well enough in law school to get these extremely competitive positions)

d34d9823
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby d34d9823 » Fri Dec 31, 2010 9:50 pm

tipler4213 wrote:This is all very interesting, even the constant bickering. This question will get mocked, but what are people's perceptions (or is there data) for how well schools place in government, i.e. DoJ, GC at DHS, etc.

(yes, i understand most people who end up in these offices likely get clerkships first, and yes, I understand there are other less debt-ridden routes to government other than law, and yes, I know international law doesn't exist, and yes, I know that you cannot count on doing well enough in law school to get these extremely competitive positions)

I haven't seen data, but given the enormous amount of career incest between legal fields, I would expect numbers to reflect BigLaw, with biases based on region.

Informative
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby Informative » Tue Jan 04, 2011 3:41 pm

Agreed. Not all clerkships are on the same playing field.

Fark-o-vision
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby Fark-o-vision » Thu Jan 06, 2011 9:03 pm

Anyone else surprised that IU-B didn't place in the top 50 of this last? Of course, this isn't the end all be all, but for a fairly predictive data set you'd expect to see the 23rd (or whatever) ranked school on the list.

d34d9823
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby d34d9823 » Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:12 am

Fark-o-vision wrote:Anyone else surprised that IU-B didn't place in the top 50 of this last? Of course, this isn't the end all be all, but for a fairly predictive data set you'd expect to see the 23rd (or whatever) ranked school on the list.

Location matters more than rankings past T17 or so.

Fark-o-vision
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby Fark-o-vision » Sat Jan 08, 2011 2:12 am

Nightrunner wrote:
Fark-o-vision wrote:Anyone else surprised that IU-B didn't place in the top 50 of this last? Of course, this isn't the end all be all, but for a fairly predictive data set you'd expect to see the 23rd (or whatever) ranked school on the list.

IU-B's ranking is more indicative of their willingness to bust ass to game the rankings than of their ability to place students.


I was aware of that, which is why somewhere in the thirties or forties would not have surprised, but yikes. Oh, well. Also, ND seemed to do alarmingly well, given how poorly their OCI process seemed to go this year.

09042014
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby 09042014 » Sat Jan 08, 2011 2:33 am

Fark-o-vision wrote:
Nightrunner wrote:
Fark-o-vision wrote:Anyone else surprised that IU-B didn't place in the top 50 of this last? Of course, this isn't the end all be all, but for a fairly predictive data set you'd expect to see the 23rd (or whatever) ranked school on the list.

IU-B's ranking is more indicative of their willingness to bust ass to game the rankings than of their ability to place students.


I was aware of that, which is why somewhere in the thirties or forties would not have surprised, but yikes. Oh, well. Also, ND seemed to do alarmingly well, given how poorly their OCI process seemed to go this year.


C/O 2009 did OCI in 2007.

Schools that placed heavily into Chicago got owned. Chicago as a city went from around 809 Summer Associates for C/O 2009, to 581 for 2010, to 256 in 2011. That is less than a third of the spots from the peak til Class of 2011.

What makes matters worse is that Chicago firms, instead of reducing the numbers from each school by 2/3rd, just didn't go to OCI at UIUC, WUSTL, or ND. Many top chicago firms only went to Harvard, UChi, Michigan and Northwestern.

UIUC, WUSTL and ND will have atrocious data for class of 2011.

Schools like WUSTL and ND did send some people nationally, but firms from around the country weren't going to fly to the midwest to pick up an associate when ITE the top of their nearby schools are available.

ATR
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby ATR » Sat Jan 08, 2011 3:55 am

Desert Fox wrote:Schools that placed heavily into Chicago got owned. Chicago as a city went from around 809 Summer Associates for C/O 2009, to 581 for 2010, to 256 in 2011. That is less than a third of the spots from the peak til Class of 2011.

Just curious, where do you access this kind of data? I'd like to be aware of this type of thing when deciding on schools in April.

09042014
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby 09042014 » Sat Jan 08, 2011 4:16 am

atresia wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Schools that placed heavily into Chicago got owned. Chicago as a city went from around 809 Summer Associates for C/O 2009, to 581 for 2010, to 256 in 2011. That is less than a third of the spots from the peak til Class of 2011.

Just curious, where do you access this kind of data? I'd like to be aware of this type of thing when deciding on schools in April.


Nalp directory.

2011Law
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby 2011Law » Sat Jan 15, 2011 10:28 pm

This may have been asked already here, but I didn't feel like looking through the whole thread. I realize that BU is only ranked slightly better than BC, but what gives? Why is BC out-placing both BU and GW?

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Helmholtz
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby Helmholtz » Sat Jan 15, 2011 11:18 pm

Desert Fox wrote:UIUC, WUSTL and ND will have atrocious data for class of 2011.


+1

RIP, T25 midwest Cs/O 2011.

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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby Blindmelon » Sun Jan 16, 2011 12:05 am

2011Law wrote:This may have been asked already here, but I didn't feel like looking through the whole thread. I realize that BU is only ranked slightly better than BC, but what gives? Why is BC out-placing both BU and GW?


For one thing, the BU number is wrong.

2011Law
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby 2011Law » Sun Jan 16, 2011 12:30 am

Blindmelon wrote:
2011Law wrote:This may have been asked already here, but I didn't feel like looking through the whole thread. I realize that BU is only ranked slightly better than BC, but what gives? Why is BC out-placing both BU and GW?


For one thing, the BU number is wrong.


This was made in April 2008, but I think it shows what was up.

http://www.law.com/img/nlj/charts/composite.pdf

According to the chart, BC placed about 31% in the NLJ 250 while BU placed about 26%, but BU placed about 10% in grad school / academia while BC placed about 3%. Then again BC placed about 13% in clerkships to BU's 7%. These placement percentages are only for inside Massachusetts.

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Blindmelon
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby Blindmelon » Sun Jan 16, 2011 12:39 pm

2011Law wrote:
Blindmelon wrote:
2011Law wrote:This may have been asked already here, but I didn't feel like looking through the whole thread. I realize that BU is only ranked slightly better than BC, but what gives? Why is BC out-placing both BU and GW?


For one thing, the BU number is wrong.


This was made in April 2008, but I think it shows what was up.

http://www.law.com/img/nlj/charts/composite.pdf

According to the chart, BC placed about 31% in the NLJ 250 while BU placed about 26%, but BU placed about 10% in grad school / academia while BC placed about 3%. Then again BC placed about 13% in clerkships to BU's 7%. These placement percentages are only for inside Massachusetts.


Yea, thats not very helpful. BU sends a lot to firms in NYC. If you look at the actual NLJ data (not the summary chart, which is wrong), BU/BC are pretty much identical with firm placement, with BU having a not insignificant edge when it comes to vault ranking.

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RVP11
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby RVP11 » Sun Jan 16, 2011 2:20 pm

2011Law wrote:
Blindmelon wrote:
2011Law wrote:This may have been asked already here, but I didn't feel like looking through the whole thread. I realize that BU is only ranked slightly better than BC, but what gives? Why is BC out-placing both BU and GW?


For one thing, the BU number is wrong.


This was made in April 2008, but I think it shows what was up.

http://www.law.com/img/nlj/charts/composite.pdf

According to the chart, BC placed about 31% in the NLJ 250 while BU placed about 26%, but BU placed about 10% in grad school / academia while BC placed about 3%. Then again BC placed about 13% in clerkships to BU's 7%. These placement percentages are only for inside Massachusetts.


No, those percentages are NOT just for inside Massachusetts. People misread that chart all the time.

2011Law
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby 2011Law » Sun Jan 16, 2011 5:05 pm

RVP11 wrote:
2011Law wrote:
Blindmelon wrote:
2011Law wrote:This may have been asked already here, but I didn't feel like looking through the whole thread. I realize that BU is only ranked slightly better than BC, but what gives? Why is BC out-placing both BU and GW?


For one thing, the BU number is wrong.


This was made in April 2008, but I think it shows what was up.

http://www.law.com/img/nlj/charts/composite.pdf

According to the chart, BC placed about 31% in the NLJ 250 while BU placed about 26%, but BU placed about 10% in grad school / academia while BC placed about 3%. Then again BC placed about 13% in clerkships to BU's 7%. These placement percentages are only for inside Massachusetts.


No, those percentages are NOT just for inside Massachusetts. People misread that chart all the time.


My bad.

Informative
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby Informative » Thu Feb 03, 2011 5:50 pm

Bumping due to discussion in another thread.

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Ialdabaoth
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby Ialdabaoth » Thu Feb 03, 2011 6:23 pm

Informative wrote:Bumping due to discussion in another thread.


Informative, would you (or anyone else) be interested in updating these rankings to include the latest clerkship and NLJ250 data (when they are available)?

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soullesswonder
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby soullesswonder » Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:40 pm

Ialdabaoth wrote:
Informative wrote:Bumping due to discussion in another thread.


Informative, would you (or anyone else) be interested in updating these rankings to include the latest clerkship and NLJ250 data (when they are available)?


It'd be better just to start a new thread

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Ialdabaoth
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby Ialdabaoth » Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:51 pm

soullesswonder wrote:
Ialdabaoth wrote:
Informative wrote:Bumping due to discussion in another thread.


Informative, would you (or anyone else) be interested in updating these rankings to include the latest clerkship and NLJ250 data (when they are available)?


It'd be better just to start a new thread


I agree. I just thought maybe I would find some people still following this thread who also wanted to work on this.

Informative
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby Informative » Thu Feb 03, 2011 10:50 pm

2011Law wrote:This may have been asked already here, but I didn't feel like looking through the whole thread. I realize that BU is only ranked slightly better than BC, but what gives? Why is BC out-placing both BU and GW?


Just demonstrates the willingness of top law firms in Boston and New York to go deeper into the BC class, but if you think about the stats, this really only accounts for ten or so more students per year hired. Still, better than most schools. When you put the clerkship stats into account as the OP did, BC jumps ahead of BU and GW even more. Not surprising if you've ever worked in the Boston market, which has a heavy BC presence at the top firms.

But it should be noted that most students aren't going to see any significant difference if they attend BU. GW is just very different given that their students aren't feeding into NY and Boston, which are heavily dominated by NLJ250. DC is more of a government town and a lot of GW students go into Gov't instead.

Informative
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby Informative » Thu Feb 03, 2011 10:52 pm

Did they release updated info for 2011? Clerkshp stats probably didn't fluctuate much, but I'd be interested to see if the law firm hiring changed based on geographic variables. I'd imagine the california and chicago schools were hit pretty hard. Boston and DC firms probably remained or increased class sizes from local schools.

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Blindmelon
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby Blindmelon » Thu Feb 03, 2011 11:53 pm

Informative wrote:Did they release updated info for 2011? Clerkshp stats probably didn't fluctuate much, but I'd be interested to see if the law firm hiring changed based on geographic variables. I'd imagine the california and chicago schools were hit pretty hard. Boston and DC firms probably remained or increased class sizes from local schools.


I know Boston increased a lot from last year. Just from what I learned at OCI, Choate Hall and Stewart didn't have a summer class last year, but this year are taking 15. WilmerHale went from 25 to 33 this summer, Ropes and Gray is taking a whopping 70 associates up from 35 last year, Goodwin Proctor went up by about 10 or so, so all in all, hiring is up.

Also, just looking at where BU people summered last year, its nothing close to the number of people at big firms in Boston this summer. This summer, I know a lot of people working in Boston, at least 4 at Ropes, 6 at Goodwin, 5 at Wilmer, a few at Choate, Foley and Lardner, Mintz Levin, Weil, Foley Hoag, etc. Also, it seems like NYC is bouncing back in a big way as I know of people working at places like S&C, Cleary, etc.




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