Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

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OperaSoprano
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby OperaSoprano » Sun Feb 21, 2010 5:16 pm

rayiner wrote:One of the things that needs to be borne in mind is that these charts minimize placement differences somewhat, because no-offers didn't happen in any predictable way across school ranks. Indeed, the schools that had the best placement (into elite NYC biglaw) probably got hit with the bulk of the no-offers. Consider:

80% of CLS gets a 2L SA through OCI. Another 10% could get it, but choose to do something else (elite boutiques, PI, etc). This is consistent with what would've been the case for C/O 2009 at OCI.

40% of GWU gets a 2L SA through OCI. If more people could've gotten such offers, they would've taken them, so this number is not saturated. This is consistent with what would've been the case for C/O 2009 at OCI.

Now, say 30% of NYC 2L SA's get no-offered, compared to 10% of DC 2L SA's (DC firms shed an order of magnitude fewer NJL250 jobs per capita than NYC firms).

Now, suddenly CLS is at 56% NLJ250 placement, while GWU is at 36%. Suddenly you go from 90% versus 40% being able to get biglaw at OCI to 56% versus 36% actually getting it.


The same thing happened to the CLS class of 2010. I recently had brunch with one of my favorite CLS people, and he said there are a decent number of 3Ls who are "in trouble." I was kind of shocked, because I was socialized to believe that not failing out of CLS = writing your NYC biglaw ticket. I'm sure they'll get clerkships, so they won't really be in trouble, but I just wanted to tell you that you're 100% spot on with this.

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RVP11
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby RVP11 » Sun Feb 21, 2010 5:16 pm

Yes, I agree with that. Counting on a MidLaw job is a fool's path when most of these types of firms are hiring 0-3 people per year and their criteria in recruiting is generally unknown or at least can't be generalized very well.

showNprove
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Re: Top Placing Classes of 2009 (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby showNprove » Sun Feb 21, 2010 5:17 pm

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Last edited by showNprove on Sat Feb 26, 2011 5:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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OperaSoprano
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Re: Top Placing Classes of 2009 (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby OperaSoprano » Sun Feb 21, 2010 5:20 pm

showNprove wrote:
fortissimo wrote:
showNprove wrote:
WellNow wrote:FWIW. These numbers also miss self-selection for public interest and government positions, many of which are obviously highly competitive. Which may help explain why Harvard drops ten points relative to stanford. It also puts berkeley's position in some context, as berkeley traditionally places 10 percent of its class in public interest and a smaller but significant percent in government.

Then you have to include the PI/Gov't placement of all the other schools. I know Virginia and Michigan, for instance, place about 8%.


Meaning Mich and Virginia would still own the rankings?LOL /end trolling. I don't think the rankings would be that different if we were to include government/PI since a lot of schools place about the same amount into PI/government (i.e. ~10%)

Exactly

HYS
CCNMV
BPND
CG

/end_trolling


I don't think the two of you are ever going to /end_trolling, but to be fair, neither will I. :mrgreen:

women'ssoccer
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby women'ssoccer » Sun Feb 21, 2010 5:20 pm

Helmholtz wrote:
women'ssoccer wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:re: Wake vs. UNC

Chances are very good you're not going to end up with a biglaw job or article iii clerkship after graduation. Simple as that. Don't go to either expecting one. I would be paying a lot more attention to the opportunities the median student is getting instead of somebody who was top 10% and making $160k in a major market.



Yea. In no way do I feel I will be getting anything like a 160K job out of UNC or Wake.

I would love a 75K-100K job in NC, however. And the fact that 20% of WFU grads got NJL250 whereas 15% of UNC grads got it, seems to suggest that Wake would be a better choice to land a upper-level (salary-wise) job, ie a 75-100K job (median salary for lawyers is like 50K i think).


Helmz, I realize that my reasoning above is sloppy. But, before reading this I was sure UNC was better to get a 75K+ job, now I'm having second thoughts, or at least the 2 might be closer than I thought.

Do you have an inclination as to which school is better for my goals (75k job)? I only want to work in NC. (Note: WFU and UNC would both cost 15K for me.)


First of all, there are hardly any 75K-100K jobs, relatively speaking. In the new hiring legal jobs, you're pretty much making $160k or you're making $50k. My gut instinct would definitely point towards UNC over Wake, but I would suggest that you do a lot of talking to current/former students and possibly attorneys in the location and/or area of law that you want to get into. I'm afraid I can't give you anywhere near a de facto answer.



Fair enough.

I don't even want to work in Raliegh or Charlotte (haha-no jobs in the Queen City anyways) where the 160K jobs might be.

I was under the impression that, generally, NC "biglaw" is really what a T14er would call "mid-law." I mean, I doubt that there are any 160K jobs in Winston-Salem, but I would imagine that the "elite" firms there hire starting at about 80K (at least I've seen that data for '07).

Can anyone speak to the 50K or 160K diachotomy in the NC legal market?

(I realize that to answer this I'll probably just have to do what Helmz recommended and do the legwork myself; but i might get lucky).

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TTT-LS
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby TTT-LS » Sun Feb 21, 2010 5:21 pm

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Last edited by TTT-LS on Tue Jul 06, 2010 5:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Notor
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby Notor » Sun Feb 21, 2010 5:24 pm

IUB is definitely confirmed as being vastly overrated.

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Helmholtz
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby Helmholtz » Sun Feb 21, 2010 5:25 pm

Notor wrote:IUB is definitely confirmed as being vastly overrated.


There was never any doubt.

women'ssoccer
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby women'ssoccer » Sun Feb 21, 2010 5:27 pm

Image


OK, I'll stop blowing up this thread after this:

Does this graph confirm the existence of MID-LAW?

OR, did they just have to put a line between 50K and 160K to make the graph not look dumb?

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kittenmittons
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby kittenmittons » Sun Feb 21, 2010 5:28 pm

Median is clearly not the best metric here. The graph demonstrates that.

women'ssoccer
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby women'ssoccer » Sun Feb 21, 2010 5:29 pm

kittenmittons wrote:Median is clearly not the best metric here. The graph demonstrates that.



ehh...better than average.

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kittenmittons
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby kittenmittons » Sun Feb 21, 2010 5:31 pm

women'ssoccer wrote:
kittenmittons wrote:Median is clearly not the best metric here. The graph demonstrates that.



ehh...better than average.


Better trash is still trash.

09042014
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby 09042014 » Sun Feb 21, 2010 5:31 pm

women'ssoccer wrote:Image


OK, I'll stop blowing up this thread after this:

Does this graph confirm the existence of MID-LAW?

OR, did they just have to put a line between 50K and 160K to make the graph not look dumb?


Most of those salaries are just the big law in their smaller towns. Hell even in Chicago a lot of big law firms pay 145K. That is hardly mid law. I don't know what big law in Madison Wisconsin pays but it sure isn't 160K.

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Notor
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby Notor » Sun Feb 21, 2010 5:33 pm

There also seems to be little difference between certain Big 10 schools: OSU, Wisconsin, Iowa, MN, and UIUC all seem to be roughly the same and ranked fairly accurately. IUB is way out of its league and has placements more in line with schools ranked 60 or lower.

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Helmholtz
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby Helmholtz » Sun Feb 21, 2010 5:33 pm

women'ssoccer wrote:
kittenmittons wrote:Median is clearly not the best metric here. The graph demonstrates that.



ehh...better than average.


True, but what's more informative is the fact that such a huge amount make $160k or $35k-$65k. If we take 100 lawyers who are making more than $150k, 100 lawyers who are making less than $40k, and one lawyer who makes $70k, our median is going to be $70k. It's better to look at the entire distribution.

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Dick Whitman
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby Dick Whitman » Sun Feb 21, 2010 5:55 pm

women'ssoccer wrote:I was under the impression that, generally, NC "biglaw" is really what a T14er would call "mid-law." I mean, I doubt that there are any 160K jobs in Winston-Salem, but I would imagine that the "elite" firms there hire starting at about 80K (at least I've seen that data for '07).

Can anyone speak to the 50K or 160K diachotomy in the NC legal market?


Salaries at the biggest firm in Winston-Salem start at $130k, as they do in Durham and Greensboro. There were a few firms paying $160k in Raleigh, but I believe these were patent only. There were a few of the big national firms running NYC satellite offices paying $160k in Charlotte, but I'm not sure if any them are left paying that. "Market" in Charlotte is $145k/$130k.

I think most of the $80k-$120k jobs are in cities where that is market (e.g. Kansas City). All the big cities in NC have $130k firms, so there may not be that many of those jobs available. And you're going to have a hard time getting a job at the big firms in NC (particularly in Charlotte) unless you graduate at the top of your class from UNC or Wake.

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Dick Whitman
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Re: Top Placing Classes of 2009 (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby Dick Whitman » Sun Feb 21, 2010 5:57 pm

showNprove wrote:
WellNow wrote:FWIW. These numbers also miss self-selection for public interest and government positions, many of which are obviously highly competitive. Which may help explain why Harvard drops ten points relative to stanford. It also puts berkeley's position in some context, as berkeley traditionally places 10 percent of its class in public interest and a smaller but significant percent in government.

Then you have to include the PI/Gov't placement of all the other schools. I know Virginia and Michigan, for instance, place about 8%.


It's incomplete without it, but to use it there needs to be some way to differentiate between the elite and mediocre government/public interest positions. I doubt there is so simple a way to do so as with firms and clerkships, unfortunately.

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Legacy316
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby Legacy316 » Sun Feb 21, 2010 6:13 pm

Should we add a point or two for academia? :)

WellNow
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Re: Top Placing Classes of 2009 (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby WellNow » Sun Feb 21, 2010 6:19 pm

fortissimo wrote:
showNprove wrote:
WellNow wrote:FWIW. These numbers also miss self-selection for public interest and government positions, many of which are obviously highly competitive. Which may help explain why Harvard drops ten points relative to stanford. It also puts berkeley's position in some context, as berkeley traditionally places 10 percent of its class in public interest and a smaller but significant percent in government.

Then you have to include the PI/Gov't placement of all the other schools. I know Virginia and Michigan, for instance, place about 8%.


Meaning Mich and Virginia would still own the rankings?LOL /end trolling. I don't think the rankings would be that different if we were to include government/PI since a lot of schools place about the same amount into PI/government (i.e. ~10%)


Not to keep this going, but according to NALP law schools, they don't. For example, Chicago places less than 2% in public interest and government combined. Virginia places around 7% combined and Michigan around 8% combined. NYU, by contrast places around 12% combined and Berkeley around 15%. Take from that what you will, but a difference of 7-8% is probably significant.

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98234872348
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby 98234872348 » Sun Feb 21, 2010 6:25 pm

women'ssoccer wrote:Does this graph confirm the existence of MID-LAW?

Of course midlaw exists, to say it didn't would make one look both ignorant and arrogant. In Florida, for example, there are about 400 firms listed on martindale with 25-149 lawyers, typically what one would categorize as "midlaw" firms (although repeat firms would probably diminish this number substantially, and I am not in the mood to do more research). However, midlaw firms don't usually hire many (if any) graduating law students; they typically look for those with a couple of years of experience.

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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby showNprove » Sun Feb 21, 2010 6:28 pm

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Last edited by showNprove on Sat Feb 26, 2011 5:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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RVP11
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby RVP11 » Sun Feb 21, 2010 6:32 pm

showNprove wrote:I was interested in how schools have performed relative to each other over the past year in the three factors given the most weight: placement power, student quality, and reputation. I divided each school's performance by the highest performance in that category in order to get a measure of relative performance. I weighed each of these three factors equally, and within student quality, I weighed the LSAT twice as much as GPA.

For reputation, I used both USNWR survey results. For student quality, I used the schools' self-reported medians and estimates for select schools.* For placement power, I used the data from this thread.

*For the LSAT's and GPA's of Yale, Harvard, and Stanford, I used Leiter's estimations based on the 25th/75th percentiles.


2009 Power Rankings:

1. Stanford (99.2)
2. Yale (97.8 )
3. Harvard (95.0)
4. Columbia (92.0)
5. Chicago (91.5)
6. Virginia (91.4)
7. Michigan (91.1)
8. NYU (88.7)
8. Duke (88.7)
10. Northwestern (88.2)
11. Berkeley (87.9)
12. Penn (85.8 )
13. Cornell (83.9)
14. Vanderbilt (83.4)
15. Georgetown (82.8 )
16. Texas (81.2)
17. USC (77.5)
18. UCLA (77.4)


Whatever you have to do to get us up to 6th, man.

showNprove
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby showNprove » Sun Feb 21, 2010 6:34 pm

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Last edited by showNprove on Sat Feb 26, 2011 5:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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jmaan
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby jmaan » Sun Feb 21, 2010 6:52 pm

showNprove wrote:
JSUVA2012 wrote:Whatever you have to do to get us up to 6th, man.

This much more productive than working on LRW. More interesting, if nothing else, I think.


im thoroughly enjoying all the uva trolling cause this weekend is dedicated to convincing my dad that my ed at uva was a good idea..hes very west coast biased so its been tough but this info has my back :)

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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby spritecan » Sun Feb 21, 2010 7:15 pm

Wow. This might be game-changing.




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