Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

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Stringer Bell
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby Stringer Bell » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:14 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
Fancy Pants wrote:
Stringer Bell wrote:You are completely wrong. A more useful data set might be '09 NLJ plus a 3 year average of clerkship data. You could also throw in a 3 year average of academia and make assumptions on prestigous PI too.

The point is that in the real world people do analysis with incomplete numbers numbers and assumptions instead of saying "eff it, I'm not looking at this until I have actuals." hth


The fact that "the real world" (whatever that is) uses incomplete data to make predictions really doesn't change how you should feel about using wrong data to make predictions.

Also, you mention "assumptions" but fail to realize that the whole point of what we're saying is that the assumption is that the 2009 data is going to be very different from 2008.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subprime_m ... it_ratings


Oh come on. How can you expect anyone to build a model with the crazy idea that an asset could decrease in value?

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Fancy Pants
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby Fancy Pants » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:14 pm

Stringer Bell wrote:
kittenmittons wrote:Using any of this data as a proxy for actual rankings is prolish.


That is fair. I'm not at all saying we look at these lists and say VM pwned Chicago in '09, I'm merely saying we can look at these data sets and say we have SOME evidence that VM may have outplaced Chicago in these 2 categories in '09.


Not if the data is wrong. Then there is no evidence of this.

09042014
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby 09042014 » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:15 pm

Stringer Bell wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
kittenmittons wrote:
JSUVA2012 wrote:As long as someone isn't hiding their methodology or outright fabricating, I don't get why anyone complains about the resulting ranks. The flaws of incomplete data are apparent; we're law students and future law students. But no one's stopping you from compiling your own statistics if you think those others present are inaccurate or misleading in any way.


I just don't see the benefit


Pretend you are going to UVa and feel inferior about your school (for some unknown reason, wtf is it always UVa students?!?).

Now do you see it?


If we look at NLJ 250 by itself for '09, UVA is 5th. My self esteem from looking at that list by itself instead isn't going to take a big hit. The reason this list still holds value is because it takes some account of clerkship data for Yale and Stanford.

If you want to look at the NLJ list by itself and claim NU is #1, knock yourself out.


I did not, and will not*. NU isn't anywhere close to the best placer in Big law. Not even in the top 6.

What happened in 2009 is clear to anyone who has a tiny bit of info and an objective prospective.

OCI for class of 2009 at the height of the bubble. 80%+ of all the T13 could get big law offers for 2L. Then in 2008 (after their 2L SA was over) the economy crumbled, and firms no offered significant parts of their class. These layoff and no offers hit NYC the worst, and Chicago second. Cali was hit so so, and DC and other smaller markets not that bad at all.

When you compare NLJ250 from 2008 to 2009, schools that place mostly in Chicago and NYC take big hits. Schools that place in the South do well (vandy) and schools that place all over did mediocre (Mich and UVa)

Class of 2011 will be different. They OCI'd after the crash. Firms will hire based on prestige again at it will look like the 2008 data, but with lower percents all around.
Last edited by 09042014 on Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Stringer Bell
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby Stringer Bell » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:16 pm

Fancy Pants wrote:
Stringer Bell wrote:
kittenmittons wrote:Using any of this data as a proxy for actual rankings is prolish.


That is fair. I'm not at all saying we look at these lists and say VM pwned [strike]Chicago[/strike] NYU in '09, I'm merely saying we can look at these data sets and say we have SOME evidence that VM may have outplaced [strike]Chicago[/strike] NYU in these 2 categories in '09.


Not if the data is wrong. Then there is no evidence of this.


Fair enough. I fixed my post.

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Fancy Pants
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby Fancy Pants » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:18 pm

Stringer Bell wrote:
Fancy Pants wrote:
Stringer Bell wrote:
kittenmittons wrote:Using any of this data as a proxy for actual rankings is prolish.


That is fair. I'm not at all saying we look at these lists and say VM pwned [strike]Chicago[/strike] NYU in '09, I'm merely saying we can look at these data sets and say we have SOME evidence that VM may have outplaced [strike]Chicago[/strike] NYU in these 2 categories in '09.


Not if the data is wrong. Then there is no evidence of this.


Fair enough. I fixed my post.


EDIT: I think I misread what you're talking about. :D
Last edited by Fancy Pants on Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Fancy Pants
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby Fancy Pants » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:20 pm

Nightrunner wrote:
Fancy Pants wrote:
Not if the data is wrong. Then there is no evidence of this.

I love how all the data are 'wrong.' It isn't like we're assessing this information using fucking library size: these are the actual data for NLJ250 firm hiring in 2009, and Article III clerkships in 2008 (the most recent data available). If you want to say that these are imperfect, I'm totally on board. To throw everything out the window and bury our heads because one is from one year and another is from another year (when both are the most recent data available in their respective sets) is just idiotic.


2008 data =/= 2009 data. Therefore, it is wrong.

It is right if you're talking about 2008, but wrong if you are talking about 2009.

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kittenmittons
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby kittenmittons » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:23 pm

Nightrunner wrote:
Fancy Pants wrote:
Nightrunner wrote:
Fancy Pants wrote:
Not if the data is wrong. Then there is no evidence of this.

I love how all the data are 'wrong.' It isn't like we're assessing this information using fucking library size: these are the actual data for NLJ250 firm hiring in 2009, and Article III clerkships in 2008 (the most recent data available). If you want to say that these are imperfect, I'm totally on board. To throw everything out the window and bury our heads because one is from one year and another is from another year (when both are the most recent data available in their respective sets) is just idiotic.


2008 data =/= 2009 data. Therefore, it is wrong.

It is right if you're talking about 2008, but wrong if you are talking about 2009.


It is the most relevant and applicable data available. Pretending it doesn't exist is bush league.


It's not applicable though bro

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crackberry
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby crackberry » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:23 pm

It is spelled Busch League. Like the beer.

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Fancy Pants
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby Fancy Pants » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:24 pm

Nightrunner wrote:
Fancy Pants wrote:
Nightrunner wrote:
Fancy Pants wrote:
Not if the data is wrong. Then there is no evidence of this.

I love how all the data are 'wrong.' It isn't like we're assessing this information using fucking library size: these are the actual data for NLJ250 firm hiring in 2009, and Article III clerkships in 2008 (the most recent data available). If you want to say that these are imperfect, I'm totally on board. To throw everything out the window and bury our heads because one is from one year and another is from another year (when both are the most recent data available in their respective sets) is just idiotic.


2008 data =/= 2009 data. Therefore, it is wrong.

It is right if you're talking about 2008, but wrong if you are talking about 2009.


It is the most relevant and applicable data available. Pretending it doesn't exist is bush league.


It's not relevant. "Most relevant" in this example is a stupid category. If I had data from how the stock market did in 2007, but didn't yet have it for 2008, would it be worthwhile to use it to predict how it would do in 2009? It's "most relevant" after all.

Not to mention the fact that the 2008 data is being combined with 2009 data. Even sillier.
Last edited by Fancy Pants on Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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kittenmittons
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby kittenmittons » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:24 pm

crackberry wrote:It is spelled Busch League. Like the beer.


Also this

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crackberry
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby crackberry » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:29 pm

Kronk - I need you in the Berkeley Haters thread. Where are you?

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jmaan
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby jmaan » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:29 pm

i like this list the most.....i tried to give it its own thread but nobody really bit....

"As for the methodology of our list, we considered and weighted three criteria for each school: U.S. News & World Report (20%), National Law Journal Go-To ranks (40%) and Super Lawyer ranks (40%). Because we wanted the list to represent which schools are best for lawyers who want to have significant standing in their respective field or within the industry, we weighted U.S. News less than the other two factors, as it attempts to rank the quality of education rather than pure post-grad employability."

Col
H
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Chi
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http://www.businessinsider.com/best-law ... ots-2010-2

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crackberry
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby crackberry » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:30 pm

jmaan wrote:i like this list the most.....i tried to give it its own thread but nobody really bit....

"As for the methodology of our list, we considered and weighted three criteria for each school: U.S. News & World Report (20%), National Law Journal Go-To ranks (40%) and Super Lawyer ranks (40%). Because we wanted the list to represent which schools are best for lawyers who want to have significant standing in their respective field or within the industry, we weighted U.S. News less than the other two factors, as it attempts to rank the quality of education rather than pure post-grad employability."

Col
H
M
V
N
B
Chi
S
N
G

http://www.businessinsider.com/best-law ... ots-2010-2

Pernicious anti-HYS trolling. Particularly Y.

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kittenmittons
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby kittenmittons » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:30 pm

crackberry wrote:Kronk - I need you in the Berkeley Haters thread. Where are you?


Peddling for cash in East Bay because he's a Cal grad

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crackberry
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby crackberry » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:31 pm

kittenmittons wrote:
crackberry wrote:Kronk - I need you in the Berkeley Haters thread. Where are you?


Peddling for cash in East Bay because he's a Cal grad

No he's not (a Cal grad).

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jmaan
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby jmaan » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:31 pm

crackberry wrote:
jmaan wrote:i like this list the most.....i tried to give it its own thread but nobody really bit....

"As for the methodology of our list, we considered and weighted three criteria for each school: U.S. News & World Report (20%), National Law Journal Go-To ranks (40%) and Super Lawyer ranks (40%). Because we wanted the list to represent which schools are best for lawyers who want to have significant standing in their respective field or within the industry, we weighted U.S. News less than the other two factors, as it attempts to rank the quality of education rather than pure post-grad employability."

Col
H
M
V
N
B
Chi
S
N
G

http://www.businessinsider.com/best-law ... ots-2010-2

Pernicious anti-HYS trolling. Particularly Y.


lol not so much H but this def trolls Y

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kittenmittons
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby kittenmittons » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:32 pm

crackberry wrote:
kittenmittons wrote:
crackberry wrote:Kronk - I need you in the Berkeley Haters thread. Where are you?


Peddling for cash in East Bay because he's a Cal grad

No he's not (a Cal grad).


I know, but my point still stands.

APimpNamedSlickback
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby APimpNamedSlickback » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:32 pm

crackberry wrote:
kittenmittons wrote:
crackberry wrote:Kronk - I need you in the Berkeley Haters thread. Where are you?


Peddling for cash in East Bay because he's a Cal grad

No he's not (a Cal grad).


indeed. and i thought Cal was as bad as it gets.

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rayiner
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby rayiner » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:34 pm

So much picture selection fail:

Image

What the hell part of the NU law building is this?

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jmaan
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby jmaan » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:38 pm

Nightrunner wrote:
rayiner wrote:So much picture selection fail:

Image

What the hell part of the NU law building is this?

the bastille?


lol they show the rotunda for UVA law

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Stringer Bell
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby Stringer Bell » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:41 pm

Desert Fox wrote:What happened in 2009 is clear to anyone who has a tiny bit of info and an objective prospective.

OCI for class of 2009 at the height of the bubble. 80%+ of all the T13 could get big law offers for 2L. Then in 2008 (after their 2L SA was over) the economy crumbled, and firms no offered significant parts of their class. These layoff and no offers hit NYC the worst, and Chicago second. Cali was hit so so, and DC and other smaller markets not that bad at all.

When you compare NLJ250 from 2008 to 2009, schools that place mostly in Chicago and NYC take big hits. Schools that place in the South do well (vandy) and schools that place all over did mediocre (Mich and UVa)

Class of 2011 will be different. They OCI'd after the crash. Firms will hire based on prestige again at it will look like the 2008 data, but with lower percents all around.


I certainly did not, nor would I, make the assertion that we should extrapolate this data out into the future to make predictions regarding placement percentages for each school.

The only conclusion I would really attempt to draw from '09 placement stats would be that there could be some advantages to not relying too heavily on one market, regardless of what that market is.

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TTT-LS
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby TTT-LS » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:46 pm

.
Last edited by TTT-LS on Tue Jul 06, 2010 6:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Fancy Pants
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby Fancy Pants » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:49 pm

TTT-LS wrote:
kittenmittons wrote:It's not applicable though bro

Not applicable to what, exactly? Surely the data are applicable--or, to use Fancy Pants' term, relevant--to the classes of graduates surveyed. That the data may not reflect precisely what went on this past fall is sort of beside the point, at least to anyone literate enough to understand that what happened a few years ago didn't happen again this fall, and probably won't next fall either. So if you're going to argue that the data aren't applicable, at least admit that what you really mean is they're just not applicable to you.


Er - since the data is from 2008 I would say it's not relevant (applicable) to the 2009 data that it is being combined with. I'm not sure that has anything to do with me, but I guess that means in addition to being irrelevant to the sought-after data (2009), it is also irrelevant to me. So your last sentence is true.

miamiman
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby miamiman » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:52 pm

TTT-LS wrote:
kittenmittons wrote:It's not applicable though bro

Not applicable to what, exactly? Surely the data are applicable--or, to use Fancy Pants' term, relevant--to the classes of graduates surveyed. That the data may not reflect precisely what went on this past fall is sort of beside the point, at least to anyone literate enough to understand that what happened a few years ago didn't happen again this fall, and probably won't next fall either. So if you're going to argue that the data aren't applicable, at least admit that what you really mean is they're just not applicable to you.

I'm reluctant to wade back into this shitshow, in part because some of you are impervious to facts, in part because so many of you are just here to shill for the school you plan on (or just began) attending (whether you recognize that this is what you are doing or not), in part because this thread is now seems mostly about lulz, and in part because most of this discussion misses what matters most: how you do personally. Spring always brings with it a new cadre of self-appointed "expert 0Ls" here on TLS (see, e.g., Mallard last spring) who know all the stats, firm names, and that kind of shit. Fine and well--you'll be the toast of the flame wars for a few months. Just realize that when September hits, little of this crap actually makes much of a difference. It'll just be you and the material. Then, before you know it, it'll be the end of your 1L year, or your 2L or 3L year. You'll look back at threads like this one and realize that your posts, not the data, were irrelevant.


It really isn't irrelevant, though, to be asking these questions. If it's safe to be median at one school and unsafe at another, that's a relevant data point. Many 0Ls, including myself, are trying to hedge their bet as much as possible given previously cited uncertainties inherent to LS right now: 1) the larger economy 2) the inherent luck associated with 1L grades and 3) the legal markets in which these schools natively place.

with all due respect, and I do respect that you are either a current law student/current law practitioner, it is not irrelevant to ask how schools are doing vis-a-vis one another.

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Bronte
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby Bronte » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:55 pm

Goal: adjust 2009 NLJ250 figures to reflect the percentage of the class that went into clerkships. Problem: 2009 clerkship data doesn't exist. Current solution: use 2008 clerkship data as a proxy.

The current solution is flawed, but it's not "worthless" and it's not "wrong," assuming the methodology is disclosed. We need a proxy for 2009 clerkship data (at least to according to the goal of the thread). Maybe a better proxy would be the average of the past few years, although it would still be flawed. Has anyone considered, though, that clerkships might be considerably more stable considering that they are government rather than private sector jobs and thus were likely less affected by the crisis in the private sector?




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