Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

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miamiman
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby miamiman » Sun Feb 21, 2010 10:04 pm

Rand M. wrote:
miamiman wrote:This has all been wonderfully amusing but I'm still waiting for someone to bail out CCN.



'Cause right now, given this and other like threads, I'm starting to call into question everything tls has taught me about t6 > t10 > t14


+1. This feels like an episode of LOST where we have just found out that our lovable Kate is actually ...a convict. Are there really no explainers at work here?


Yep.....

Its ok though. I'm glad the uva students get their moment in the sun. Even if it means they're sucking the least of their peers.

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RVP11
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby RVP11 » Sun Feb 21, 2010 10:04 pm

Kronk wrote:
JSUVA2012 wrote:USNWR's lawyer/judge scores disagree with you.


But USNWR's peer rep scores put NYU ahead. http://money-law.blogspot.com/2009/07/z ... n-law.html.

Also, Leiter's rankings put NYU way ahead: http://www.leiterrankings.com/faculty/2 ... pact.shtml

and

http://www.leiterrankings.com/faculty/2 ... ship.shtml


UVA is not known for it's faculty.


You're telling me nothing I don't know.

And peer rep is faculties rating other faculties. Not relevant.

Your original point was prestigious faculty = better placement. So how is this even relevant?

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Kronk
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby Kronk » Sun Feb 21, 2010 10:05 pm

JSUVA2012 wrote:Yes, NYU is better than UVA or Michigan [strike]because there's a larger chance Ronald Dworkin will help you get a job.[/strike]



That's as far as you needed to go.

awesomepossum
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby awesomepossum » Sun Feb 21, 2010 10:07 pm

Kronk wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:NYU will beat a UVa or UM student inside NYC outside they are pretty much peers.


Agreed. Unfortunately for UM and UVa a huge concentration of NLJ250 firms are in NYC (same with PI jobs). Also unfortunate for Mich and UVa is that NYC is Michigan's top market and UVa's second. Homecourt advantage, NYU.



I guess not in '09.

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RVP11
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby RVP11 » Sun Feb 21, 2010 10:07 pm

Reedie wrote:
JSUVA2012 wrote:Yes, NYU is better than UVA or Michigan because there's a larger chance Ronald Dworkin will help you get a job.


Heh. If you want to get an academic job in law and phil it probably would be a big plus. Nobody hires virginia grads because they all know y'all just play softball all day. It's essentially just the most expensive softball league in the country.


This seems to be assuming that Supreme Court justices like Justice Scalia and Chief Justice Roberts don't mind that we're just a softball league, but other law schools do?

showNprove
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby showNprove » Sun Feb 21, 2010 10:08 pm

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Last edited by showNprove on Sat Feb 26, 2011 5:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

showNprove
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby showNprove » Sun Feb 21, 2010 10:09 pm

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Last edited by showNprove on Sat Feb 26, 2011 5:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Kronk
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby Kronk » Sun Feb 21, 2010 10:09 pm

JSUVA2012 wrote:You're telling me nothing I don't know.

And peer rep is faculties rating other faculties. Not relevant.

Your original point was prestigious faculty = better placement. So how is this even relevant?


It was one of my points in a large list of why NYU is superior to UVa. The biggest is because NYU has a homecourt advantage in the biggest legal market in the country for both private practice and PI jobs. But as far as the faculty is concerned: I would rather go to the school with the best faculty. I think that would make me a better lawyer and thus more employable.

Not to mention judge / lawyer assessments are lagging indicators that will eventually follow the trend of peer rep. Only recently has NYU made a firm grasp on the top six. But it isn't going anywhere.

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RVP11
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby RVP11 » Sun Feb 21, 2010 10:10 pm

Kronk wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:NYU will beat a UVa or UM student inside NYC outside they are pretty much peers.


Agreed. Unfortunately for UM and UVa a huge concentration of NLJ250 firms are in NYC (same with PI jobs). Also unfortunate for Mich and UVa is that NYC is Michigan's top market and UVa's second. Homecourt advantage, NYU.


Fortunately for UM and UVA, they placed higher percentages into NLJ250 firms in the class of 2009.

You must be a 0L to be able to troll this hard without shame.

postitnotes
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby postitnotes » Sun Feb 21, 2010 10:11 pm

Kronk wrote:
JSUVA2012 wrote:You're telling me nothing I don't know.

And peer rep is faculties rating other faculties. Not relevant.

Your original point was prestigious faculty = better placement. So how is this even relevant?


It was one of my points in a large list of why NYU is superior to UVa. The biggest is because NYU has a homecourt advantage in the biggest legal market in the country for both private practice and PI jobs. But as far as the faculty is concerned: I would rather go to the school with the best faculty. I think that would make me a better lawyer and thus more employable.


If you would rather go to a school with the best faculty because it will make you a better lawyer and thus more employable, why are you going to Boalt?

09042014
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby 09042014 » Sun Feb 21, 2010 10:11 pm

postitnotes wrote:Is anyone else surprised by Boalt's or U Penn's placement?


You shouldn't put too much faith on one data point. Last year Penn was number 3.


Image Image

So either you have to believe law firms got a sudden distaste for Penn grads, or there are other reasons for the change.

I think it is a mixture of economic forces hitting schools that place in only a big market or two, and natural fluctuation in placement.

However CCN never placed considerably better than MVPB, and MVPB has never placed better than DNC.

Placement differences are vastly overstated amongst TLRs. Regional placement power is a much bigger consideration if you are picking between CNNMBVPDNC
Last edited by 09042014 on Sun Feb 21, 2010 10:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Kronk
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby Kronk » Sun Feb 21, 2010 10:11 pm

showNprove wrote:
awesomepossum wrote:
Kronk wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:NYU will beat a UVa or UM student inside NYC outside they are pretty much peers.


Agreed. Unfortunately for UM and UVa a huge concentration of NLJ250 firms are in NYC (same with PI jobs). Also unfortunate for Mich and UVa is that NYC is Michigan's top market and UVa's second. Homecourt advantage, NYU.



I guess not in '09.

LOL pwned


pwned is you at OCI. I think it's pretty obvious that NYU places better than both, even in '09--especially considering they put a significantly larger portion of their class into prestigious PI.

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Kronk
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby Kronk » Sun Feb 21, 2010 10:12 pm

postitnotes wrote:
Kronk wrote:
JSUVA2012 wrote:You're telling me nothing I don't know.

And peer rep is faculties rating other faculties. Not relevant.

Your original point was prestigious faculty = better placement. So how is this even relevant?


It was one of my points in a large list of why NYU is superior to UVa. The biggest is because NYU has a homecourt advantage in the biggest legal market in the country for both private practice and PI jobs. But as far as the faculty is concerned: I would rather go to the school with the best faculty. I think that would make me a better lawyer and thus more employable.


If you would rather go to a school with the best faculty because it will make you a better lawyer and thus more employable, why are you going to Boalt?


I'm not going to Boalt. But tbf Boalt's faculty is better than UM or UVa's.

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RVP11
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby RVP11 » Sun Feb 21, 2010 10:12 pm

Kronk wrote:
pwned is you at OCI. I think it's pretty obvious that NYU places better than both, even in '09--especially considering they put a significantly larger portion of their class into prestigious PI.


Care to post a link to the Prestigious PI 250 rankings?

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Kronk
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby Kronk » Sun Feb 21, 2010 10:13 pm

JSUVA2012 wrote:
Kronk wrote:
pwned is you at OCI. I think it's pretty obvious that NYU places better than both, even in '09--especially considering they put a significantly larger portion of their class into prestigious PI.


Care to post a link to the Prestigious PI 250 rankings?


ACLU and NAACP jobs are harder to get than many Vault 100 positions.

postitnotes
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby postitnotes » Sun Feb 21, 2010 10:13 pm

Kronk wrote:
postitnotes wrote:
Kronk wrote:
JSUVA2012 wrote:You're telling me nothing I don't know.

And peer rep is faculties rating other faculties. Not relevant.

Your original point was prestigious faculty = better placement. So how is this even relevant?


It was one of my points in a large list of why NYU is superior to UVa. The biggest is because NYU has a homecourt advantage in the biggest legal market in the country for both private practice and PI jobs. But as far as the faculty is concerned: I would rather go to the school with the best faculty. I think that would make me a better lawyer and thus more employable.


If you would rather go to a school with the best faculty because it will make you a better lawyer and thus more employable, why are you going to Boalt?


I'm not going to Boalt. But tbf Boalt's faculty is better than UM or UVa's.



According to Leiter, it's not. http://www.leiterrankings.com/faculty/2 ... ship.shtml

You are the one who linked this originally, not me. It says U of M > Boalt.

I could have sworn you were the guy trolling for Boalt since day 1 though and that you would go to Boalt no matter how much money NYU offered you.
Last edited by postitnotes on Sun Feb 21, 2010 10:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

09042014
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby 09042014 » Sun Feb 21, 2010 10:15 pm

You all have to consider that during OCI 2007 everyone was getting offers. The differences amongst the T13 in this data are who actually got to keep their offers.

Michigan's geographic diversity, and UVa's ownership of DC are FTW in class of 2009.

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Kronk
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby Kronk » Sun Feb 21, 2010 10:15 pm

postitnotes wrote:According to Leiter, it's not. http://www.leiterrankings.com/faculty/2 ... ship.shtml

You are the one who linked this originally, not me. It says U of M > Boalt.


True. For one year. But in his other metric Berkeley is still superior (and it's a year later) http://www.leiterrankings.com/faculty/2 ... pact.shtml.

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RVP11
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby RVP11 » Sun Feb 21, 2010 10:16 pm

Kronk wrote:
JSUVA2012 wrote:
Kronk wrote:
pwned is you at OCI. I think it's pretty obvious that NYU places better than both, even in '09--especially considering they put a significantly larger portion of their class into prestigious PI.


Care to post a link to the Prestigious PI 250 rankings?


ACLU and NAACP jobs are harder to get than many Vault 100 positions.


Thanks for the overwhelming statistical support.

I'm calling flame/troll/whatever.

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Kronk
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby Kronk » Sun Feb 21, 2010 10:17 pm

I do troll for Boalt pretty often but I have no idea where I will go to law school yet.

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Reedie
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby Reedie » Sun Feb 21, 2010 10:18 pm

JSUVA2012 wrote:
Reedie wrote:
JSUVA2012 wrote:Yes, NYU is better than UVA or Michigan because there's a larger chance Ronald Dworkin will help you get a job.


Heh. If you want to get an academic job in law and phil it probably would be a big plus. Nobody hires virginia grads because they all know y'all just play softball all day. It's essentially just the most expensive softball league in the country.


This seems to be assuming that Supreme Court justices like Justice Scalia and Chief Justice Roberts don't mind that we're just a softball league, but other law schools do?


Actually Scalia and Roberts are BIG softball fans. That works in your favor for sure.

BTW: Are any of you actually serious about this?

postitnotes
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby postitnotes » Sun Feb 21, 2010 10:19 pm

Kronk wrote:
postitnotes wrote:According to Leiter, it's not. http://www.leiterrankings.com/faculty/2 ... ship.shtml

You are the one who linked this originally, not me. It says U of M > Boalt.


True. For one year. But in his other metric Berkeley is still superior (and it's a year later) http://www.leiterrankings.com/faculty/2 ... pact.shtml.


He switches metrics every year. So he does one metric (out of two) every other year which is why your "it's a year later" comment sounds retarded. It's a toss up between the two. UM > Berkeley in one, and vice versa in the other. Hard to say that 1:1 means one school is superior faculty wise.

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TTT-LS
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby TTT-LS » Sun Feb 21, 2010 10:20 pm

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Last edited by TTT-LS on Tue Jul 06, 2010 5:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Kronk
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby Kronk » Sun Feb 21, 2010 10:20 pm

I know that's how he does it, but Boalt is historically ahead of Michigan in both rankings and fell behind them for the 2008 one. I wouldn't expect it to stay that way.

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Dignan
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Re: Top Placing Classes (NLJ250 and Federal Clerkships)

Postby Dignan » Sun Feb 21, 2010 10:21 pm

miamiman wrote:This has all been wonderfully amusing but I'm still waiting for someone to bail out CCN.

I'll take a shot at bailing out CC. I've never really thought that N belonged in the CC tier anyway, so I'll leave it to someone else to defend NYU.

First, the NLJ250 represents a pretty broad swath of law jobs. Depending on one's interests in the law, there can be a significant difference between being able to land a job in a top-15 firm versus a top-50 firm; and, again depending on what one wants to do, there can be a difference between a top-100 firm and a top-250. In the past, Columbia and Chicago have done quite well--better than Michigan and UVA--at placing graduates into the elite law firms. If Columbia and Chicago have continued to maintain this relative advantage, that's a possible reason to group them in a separate tier.

Also, as I noted on the second page of this thread, it's misleading to combine the 2009 firm hiring percentage with the 2008 clerkship percentage. Historically, the clerkship placement rates for Columbia and Chicago have tended to be inversely related to the state of the economy. This is true of all the top schools to some extent, but it's been particularly true of CC, where the successful graduates tend to self-select into big law (instead of into clerkships) when the economy is good. Indeed, Columbia says that its clerkship placement is up over 30% with the class of 2009. I haven't heard about Chicago, but it wouldn't surprise me if they've seen a similar bump.

Look, I think obsessing over tiers is silly. Whether you think one school is better than the other is going to depend on what is important to you. If your goal is to land a PI job in California, then don't pick UVA over Berkeley. If your goal is to land a job with a lit firm in DC, don't pick NYU over UVA. But if we must group the top schools into tiers, I can see an argument for placing CC between HYS and the tier below it.
Last edited by Dignan on Mon Feb 22, 2010 1:20 am, edited 1 time in total.




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