University San Francisco PT vs Southwestern

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bigmnstyle
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University San Francisco PT vs Southwestern

Postby bigmnstyle » Fri Feb 19, 2010 8:04 pm

No money to either, been accepted to University of San Francisco PT and Southwestern's day division. Also Whittier with 16,500 in scholarship renewable as long as stay in top 10 percent or whatever... something lame like that lol. Any advice if you were to have to pick between the two programs, I don't mind going part time I would transfer after first year and probably get done 3 and a half years as well as work a small part time job. Thanks guys

ViP
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Re: University San Francisco PT vs Southwestern

Postby ViP » Fri Feb 19, 2010 8:09 pm

bigmnstyle wrote:No money to either, been accepted to University of San Francisco PT and Southwestern's day division. Also Whittier with 16,500 in scholarship renewable as long as stay in top 10 percent or whatever... something lame like that lol. Any advice if you were to have to pick between the two programs, I don't mind going part time I would transfer after first year and probably get done 3 and a half years as well as work a small part time job. Thanks guys


If you want to work in LA, go to Southwestern. No doubt.

If you want to work in San Francisco, go to USF.

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jonas
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Re: University San Francisco PT vs Southwestern

Postby jonas » Fri Feb 19, 2010 8:24 pm

I know you said "if you were to have to pick between the two programs," but I'd be very careful about paying full price for either of them. Have you read up on employment prospects at these schools? It's pretty grim.

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Great Satchmo
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Re: University San Francisco PT vs Southwestern

Postby Great Satchmo » Fri Feb 19, 2010 8:58 pm

jonas wrote:I know you said "if you were to have to pick between the two programs," but I'd be very careful about paying full price for either of them. Have you read up on employment prospects at these schools? It's pretty grim.


I dunno what it is with some people in here assuming everyone has some grandiose vision of guaranteed jobs and big money.

The economy sucks for most everyone. The economy sucks for most fields. The economy sucks especially if you are taking on a lot of debt in a market that is rough.

erniesto
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Re: University San Francisco PT vs Southwestern

Postby erniesto » Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:22 pm

I'd pick neither. USfca is borderline T3 an SW is borderline T4.

I can give you Aba data sheets when I get home, but in short the academic quality of these schools along side dim career prospects should dissuade you from going with anything other than a generous scholarship.

I personally applied to both. USF waitlisted me for w/e reason and SWestern no longer interests me. I already have better offers lined up and geting them everyday.

Ask yourself will I make more money in these cities bartending or lawyering with 160k debt loan pAyments?

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jonas
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Re: University San Francisco PT vs Southwestern

Postby jonas » Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:29 pm

grandiose vision of guaranteed jobs and big money

I wasn't talking about big money. I was talking about big debt with no way to pay it off.

bigmnstyle
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Re: University San Francisco PT vs Southwestern

Postby bigmnstyle » Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:34 pm

appreciate the responses. I applied to Loyola as well, same story as the other two?

Anyways if I go part time I could work as well as going to school. I was offered money to Whittier but I do know how that school is viewed. If USF and Southwestern won't get me good job opportunities at least with a 80k starting job, then I guess there is no reason to not go to Whittier and save 30 or 40 k in tuition, right?
And yes I am dead set on being a lawyer... not a bartender lol. I enjoy my law classes in undergrad and feel like a legal education is worth much more down the road than this crap economy is currently telling us.

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Re: University San Francisco PT vs Southwestern

Postby ViP » Fri Feb 19, 2010 11:03 pm

bigmnstyle wrote:appreciate the responses. I applied to Loyola as well, same story as the other two?

Anyways if I go part time I could work as well as going to school. I was offered money to Whittier but I do know how that school is viewed. If USF and Southwestern won't get me good job opportunities at least with a 80k starting job, then I guess there is no reason to not go to Whittier and save 30 or 40 k in tuition, right?
And yes I am dead set on being a lawyer... not a bartender lol. I enjoy my law classes in undergrad and feel like a legal education is worth much more down the road than this crap economy is currently telling us.


Ummm, no...

Loyola has a great name in LA and a fantastic alumni network.

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Great Satchmo
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Re: University San Francisco PT vs Southwestern

Postby Great Satchmo » Fri Feb 19, 2010 11:20 pm

erniesto wrote:I'd pick neither. USfca is borderline T3 an SW is borderline T4.

I can give you Aba data sheets when I get home, but in short the academic quality of these schools along side dim career prospects should dissuade you from going with anything other than a generous scholarship.

I personally applied to both. USF waitlisted me for w/e reason and SWestern no longer interests me. I already have better offers lined up and geting them everyday.

Ask yourself will I make more money in these cities bartending or lawyering with 160k debt loan pAyments?


You're talking crap about a school that waitlisted you and then you have "much better offers lined up"? I'm curious, what are these offers that are going to net you such a great opportunity that you now scoff at USF?

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Great Satchmo
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Re: University San Francisco PT vs Southwestern

Postby Great Satchmo » Fri Feb 19, 2010 11:22 pm

ViP wrote:
bigmnstyle wrote:appreciate the responses. I applied to Loyola as well, same story as the other two?

Anyways if I go part time I could work as well as going to school. I was offered money to Whittier but I do know how that school is viewed. If USF and Southwestern won't get me good job opportunities at least with a 80k starting job, then I guess there is no reason to not go to Whittier and save 30 or 40 k in tuition, right?
And yes I am dead set on being a lawyer... not a bartender lol. I enjoy my law classes in undergrad and feel like a legal education is worth much more down the road than this crap economy is currently telling us.


Ummm, no...

Loyola has a great name in LA and a fantastic alumni network.


Loyola may have a good alumni network in LA, but USF has similar in San Francisco.

ViP
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Re: University San Francisco PT vs Southwestern

Postby ViP » Sat Feb 20, 2010 12:31 am

Great Satchmo wrote:
ViP wrote:
bigmnstyle wrote:appreciate the responses. I applied to Loyola as well, same story as the other two?

Anyways if I go part time I could work as well as going to school. I was offered money to Whittier but I do know how that school is viewed. If USF and Southwestern won't get me good job opportunities at least with a 80k starting job, then I guess there is no reason to not go to Whittier and save 30 or 40 k in tuition, right?
And yes I am dead set on being a lawyer... not a bartender lol. I enjoy my law classes in undergrad and feel like a legal education is worth much more down the road than this crap economy is currently telling us.


Ummm, no...

Loyola has a great name in LA and a fantastic alumni network.


Loyola may have a good alumni network in LA, but USF has similar in San Francisco.


I live in LA so I have a skewed view, but I've literally heard nothing positive about USF...

I'm pretty sure Loyola is a considerably stronger school than USF.

Danteshek
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Re: University San Francisco PT vs Southwestern

Postby Danteshek » Sat Feb 20, 2010 12:49 am

Whoever thinks there is a significant difference between any of the schools mentioned in this thread is misguided and rankings obsessed. To dismiss Southwestern out of hand and in the same breath say that Loyola is a much better option with a great alumni network (as if there aren't several thousand practicing SW alums on Los Angeles) simply displays a deep lack of knowledge about the schools.

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oberlin08
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Re: University San Francisco PT vs Southwestern

Postby oberlin08 » Sat Feb 20, 2010 1:27 am

I don't think USF's employment stats are as 'grim' as you portray them.

Call me biased (bc I got into USF), but I am really of the opinion that if you go there, do well then it will all work out in the end. They may not have the placement of a school like UC Berkeley but you'll be fine I think.

It all depends on what you want to do as well. It annoys me to no end that when discussing schools on TLS the automatic assumption is Biglaw or bust, which is simply simply not a reality for most law grads.

I personally don't know if I want to go to USF there because I am interested in doing public interest/government work maybe a judicial clerkship - and 64% of USF Grads go straight into private practice (Mostly small to mid-sized firms from what I understand) which is what I don't want. And very few of USF grads get Clerkships (2-3%) or go into public interest (9%) or government (6%).

Some of my other options are more catered to what I want to do, but aren't in sweet places like USF is.

I can't speak to Southwestern at all, but I would imagine, it places well in L.A. and not too well outside of L.A.

Also, as a side note, there seems to be a really heavy theme of defeatism here on TLS in that people really believe that they won't be able to do certain things given circumstances X, Y and Z. If I ever believed statistics dictated life, then according to the statistics, I should be in Jail, not working on Capitol Hill and going to law school. :o

ViP
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Re: University San Francisco PT vs Southwestern

Postby ViP » Sat Feb 20, 2010 1:45 am

Danteshek wrote:Whoever thinks there is a significant difference between any of the schools mentioned in this thread is misguided and rankings obsessed. To dismiss Southwestern out of hand and in the same breath say that Loyola is a much better option with a great alumni network (as if there aren't several thousand practicing SW alums on Los Angeles) simply displays a deep lack of knowledge about the schools.


First off, you're sweet. Second, nobody dismissed Southwestern out of hand and followed by saying that Loyola is much better. Erniest dismissed SW, and I said Loyola is much better. Pick your fight accordingly.

I give more respect to Southwestern than 99% of the posters on TLS.

Southwestern has its strengths, but there is no way it offers as comprehensive a package as Loyola. And yes, there are plenty of Southwestern grads practicing in LA (it's a big school and it's been around for years... What do you think?). But I've never heard anyone view SW and Loyola as peer schools unless it came from the mouth of someone in the SW circle.

I have no interest whatsoever in debating SW vs. Loyola. I just wanted to defend myself from your claim that I'm misguided and rankings-obsessed. I have my opinions, and they're not baseless.

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Great Satchmo
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Re: University San Francisco PT vs Southwestern

Postby Great Satchmo » Sat Feb 20, 2010 1:52 am

Danteshek wrote:Whoever thinks there is a significant difference between any of the schools mentioned in this thread is misguided and rankings obsessed. To dismiss Southwestern out of hand and in the same breath say that Loyola is a much better option with a great alumni network (as if there aren't several thousand practicing SW alums on Los Angeles) simply displays a deep lack of knowledge about the schools.



DING DING DING.

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Great Satchmo
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Re: University San Francisco PT vs Southwestern

Postby Great Satchmo » Sat Feb 20, 2010 1:55 am

oberlin08 wrote:I don't think USF's employment stats are as 'grim' as you portray them.

Call me biased (bc I got into USF), but I am really of the opinion that if you go there, do well then it will all work out in the end. They may not have the placement of a school like UC Berkeley but you'll be fine I think.

It all depends on what you want to do as well. It annoys me to no end that when discussing schools on TLS the automatic assumption is Biglaw or bust, which is simply simply not a reality for most law grads.

I personally don't know if I want to go to USF there because I am interested in doing public interest/government work maybe a judicial clerkship - and 64% of USF Grads go straight into private practice (Mostly small to mid-sized firms from what I understand) which is what I don't want. And very few of USF grads get Clerkships (2-3%) or go into public interest (9%) or government (6%).

Some of my other options are more catered to what I want to do, but aren't in sweet places like USF is.

I can't speak to Southwestern at all, but I would imagine, it places well in L.A. and not too well outside of L.A.

Also, as a side note, there seems to be a really heavy theme of defeatism here on TLS in that people really believe that they won't be able to do certain things given circumstances X, Y and Z. If I ever believed statistics dictated life, then according to the statistics, I should be in Jail, not working on Capitol Hill and going to law school. :o


See, I like that about USF - I want to find my way into a firm (clearly not big law).

I'm afraid I'll be screwed at SCU by trying to do corporate/firm work without a tech background.

Anyhow, I think TLS, in large part in these discussions, are so misguided from reality. Everyone, including myself, try to turn statistics, which are incomplete, and try to extrapolate to individuals and niches and changing times and luck and back luck and etc, etc, etc, etc.

I think we are all trying to be fortune readers because we either want success for ourselves, we want to be better than those around us, or we are afraid of the time and money we're about to lay out in uncertain economic times.

Danteshek
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Re: University San Francisco PT vs Southwestern

Postby Danteshek » Sat Feb 20, 2010 2:14 am

There is absolutely no need to be patronizing. Do you always tell people who disagree with you that they are "sweet?". Or perhaps it's an expression you use only to describe law students attending certain schools?

erniesto
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Re: University San Francisco PT vs Southwestern

Postby erniesto » Sat Feb 20, 2010 3:01 am

My perspective is that USF has no excellent specialties like say Loyola or Lewis and Clark, a really big attrition rate, a high tuition and is in one of weaker economies in this weak economy nation. Not to mention that its graduates have to face a long line of California placing schools ahead of it in the Bay area. It is after all on the bubble of T2/T3.

If you think you'll get top 15% at USF, great, go for it. You'll likely get that firm/in-house job you want. I'm not sure what PI opportunities are coming out of USF, but most of the nice ones get gobbled up by the PI powerhouses and T-14s anyways. Personally I think its a very risky gamble at 35k a year, even with IBR.

IIRC Satchmo has a nice scholarship, so (s)he's not exactly gambling like the OP would have to do.

ViP
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Re: University San Francisco PT vs Southwestern

Postby ViP » Sat Feb 20, 2010 3:13 am

Danteshek wrote:There is absolutely no need to be patronizing. Do you always tell people who disagree with you that they are "sweet?". Or perhaps it's an expression you use only to describe law students attending certain schools?


My "patronizing" comment was a response to your blatant attack. You called me misguided. You accused me of being rankings obsessed. And now you're trying to make me look like someone that speaks a certain way with "students attending certain schools." Really, though...

Norwood
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Re: University San Francisco PT vs Southwestern

Postby Norwood » Sat Feb 20, 2010 6:39 pm

erniesto wrote:My perspective is that USF has no excellent specialties like say Loyola or Lewis and Clark, a really big attrition rate, a high tuition and is in one of weaker economies in this weak economy nation. Not to mention that its graduates have to face a long line of California placing schools ahead of it in the Bay area. It is after all on the bubble of T2/T3.

If you think you'll get top 15% at USF, great, go for it. You'll likely get that firm/in-house job you want. I'm not sure what PI opportunities are coming out of USF, but most of the nice ones get gobbled up by the PI powerhouses and T-14s anyways. Personally I think its a very risky gamble at 35k a year, even with IBR.

IIRC Satchmo has a nice scholarship, so (s)he's not exactly gambling like the OP would have to do.


No doubt Loyola has a huge alumni base, it's one of the oldest schools and produces over 400 lawyers every year. But what excellent specialty does Loyola have? Entertainment Law? Last I checked that industry isn't exactly thriving. Loyola students would also have to face a long line of CA schools: UCLA, USC, UCI, Pepperdine, and USD to compete with. Tuition between USF and Loyola aren't much different probly meager 5k difference over 3 years. We gotta stop bickering about competition between these "peer" schools such as SCU, USF, LMU, UOP, etc. Fact is they are pretty much in the same situation...rank in the top of your class and you'll be fine in region and rank in the middle or below in either then your future is going to be tough no matter what school your at. It is impossible to ever say that one of these schools is better then the other, it's a personal choice and many personal variables need to be accounted for when deciding which to attend.

The process for choosing between these peer schools should be:
Location - where you plan on living in the future
Unique Specialty (SCU IP or LMU entertainment) - this goes hand in hand with location
$$$ scholarship $$$ - no location and specialty preference and choosing between SCU/USF? go to the cheaper one

back to OP's original question:
Where do you want to live? If you don't care or it's equal then I'd go with USF. USF, Loyola, etc are not peers with Southwestern. The student body and faculty at USF come from satisfying education backgrounds and will provide a grander education in law than being at Southwestern. Law is a very involved and interactive field to study, you want exposure to bright opinions and arguments. But again, if it's between these two schools I still stand with location means everything. Don't try taking your USF degree down to LA because the job search will be brutal and you will be broke. Good luck.

erniesto
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Re: University San Francisco PT vs Southwestern

Postby erniesto » Sat Feb 20, 2010 10:37 pm

Loyola is one of the top ranked public interest universities and in some rankings is the best in addition to the entertainment specialty (which I agree is shaky).

I'm not completely disagreeing with the overall equality of peer institutions. They're not really in the same market anyways. Loyola would have similar stipulations from me that USF has. I don't think I'd pay sticker or close to it ITE.

Temka
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Re: University San Francisco PT vs Southwestern

Postby Temka » Sat Feb 20, 2010 11:05 pm

Well w/e you decide, they are both better than Whittier. If you like Whittier...go to Chapman

bigmnstyle
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Re: University San Francisco PT vs Southwestern

Postby bigmnstyle » Wed Feb 24, 2010 6:47 pm

Chapman is just as hard to get into as some of the schools I am hoping to get into but lot lower ranked. Another question, anyone think that Chicago is a better place to practice law than california? Loyola in California vs loyola in Chicago... any opinions? Both part time by the way

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Great Satchmo
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Re: University San Francisco PT vs Southwestern

Postby Great Satchmo » Wed Feb 24, 2010 6:56 pm

bigmnstyle wrote:Chapman is just as hard to get into as some of the schools I am hoping to get into but lot lower ranked. Another question, anyone think that Chicago is a better place to practice law than california? Loyola in California vs loyola in Chicago... any opinions? Both part time by the way


What do you mean "better place to practice law"?

If you mean the law market, what kind of law?

If you mean living there and practicing law...well...I'm partial to CA, so that's easy.




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