Why All The GW Hate On TLS?

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ersh1428
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Why All The GW Hate On TLS?

Postby ersh1428 » Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:10 pm

I don't understand why the vast majority of comments about GW are negative. They're traditionally ranked around 20 (We all know the story about the PT rankings by now), are among the top in percentage of their class placed in Big Law, and have a reputation that is prominent on at least the East Coast, if not fully national.

Nevertheless, if you listen to many of the posters on TLS, you would think that attending GW is just a giant money pit with a subpar education. I understand it's not T-14, but to suggest that even in DC, Vanderbilt (!) might be a better choice seems insane to me.

GW is a top choice for me despite the fact that I probably want to ultimately end up back in the NY/NJ area. I should note that I did receive a scholarship from GW, and am trying to understand why most on TLS seem to think that even with a scholarship, Georgetown or Cornell (and most schools ranked between 12 and 30 for that matter) are better options despite costing $100,000 more.

Is there something I'm missing? If I go to GW, will my entire legal education be akin to a high school civics course? Or is all this GW hate misplaced? And if so, why?

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bceagles182
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Re: Why All The GW Hate On TLS?

Postby bceagles182 » Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:16 pm

GW has incredibly high tuition and DC has extremely high COL. That said, with money it's a pretty good school imo

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bceagles182
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Re: Why All The GW Hate On TLS?

Postby bceagles182 » Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:18 pm

On the other hand, GW places most highly in DC so if you're looking to go back to NY then you'd probably be better off at Cornell or Gtown sticker

ersh1428
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Re: Why All The GW Hate On TLS?

Postby ersh1428 » Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:19 pm

But even at that, say that GW costs an extra 7-10 K per year due to their higher costs. In the scheme of 200K worth of loans to just about anywhere, isn't that somewhat insignificant, especially when compared to an inferior ranked and far more local school?

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kittenmittons
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Re: Why All The GW Hate On TLS?

Postby kittenmittons » Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:23 pm

Cornell if you're serious about NY/NJ. People in NYC haven't heard of GW

Yimbeezy
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Re: Why All The GW Hate On TLS?

Postby Yimbeezy » Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:24 pm

ersh1428 wrote:But even at that, say that GW costs an extra 7-10 K per year due to their higher costs. In the scheme of 200K worth of loans to just about anywhere, isn't that somewhat insignificant, especially when compared to an inferior ranked and far more local school?

$21,000-$30,000 is significant.

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chadwick218
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Re: Why All The GW Hate On TLS?

Postby chadwick218 » Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:27 pm

bceagles182 wrote:GW has incredibly high tuition and DC has extremely high COL. That said, with money it's a pretty good school imo


Not to mention that hte typical 1L class exceeds 550 students every year.

To the OP's point, I do believe that the top 10% at GW will place equally well, if not better, in D.C. than the top 10% at Vandy, but you are competing with 350 additional students every year for one of the most competitive legal markets in the country that places almost exclusively on the east coast (minus California).

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jks289
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Re: Why All The GW Hate On TLS?

Postby jks289 » Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:28 pm

ersh1428 wrote:But even at that, say that GW costs an extra 7-10 K per year due to their higher costs. In the scheme of 200K worth of loans to just about anywhere, isn't that somewhat insignificant, especially when compared to an inferior ranked and far more local school?


Which school are you referring to as "inferior ranked and far more local?" You were discussing GULC, Cornell, and Vanderbilt all of which beat GW on both counts.... It is a decent school though significantly outpaced by a HUGE school in its market. Potentially the same argument could be made for BU and Harvard in Boston, but I think most HLS grads end up moving away. I think it would take more than 15K a year in total savings (including COL, so we are talking a big scholarship) to make GW worth it over Cornell and GULC.

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NayBoer
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Re: Why All The GW Hate On TLS?

Postby NayBoer » Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:29 pm

kittenmittons wrote:Cornell if you're serious about NY/NJ. People in NYC haven't heard of GW
First part truth. Second part exaggerated; like half the UG population is from NYC metro area. But still do Cornell over GW for NY.

ersh1428
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Re: Why All The GW Hate On TLS?

Postby ersh1428 » Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:32 pm

Thing is, New Yorkers most certainly know about GW. Maybe not in Duluth, but in New York it's both disingenuous and seriously hyperbolic to imply no one's heard of GW. And in response to why GW places most of its class in DC, that's probably because that's where most of the class wants to be. They currently place about 18% in New York, but I'm sure that if 25% wanted New York, they'd probably get it.

And speaking to Georgetown in particular, how is worth an extra hundred grand to go to a school in the exact same market with a slightly better reputation. It's not the difference between a ranking of 14 and 60. It's typically 14 and 20. I'm really just trying to understand why that's worth the extra year's salary.

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jks289
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Re: Why All The GW Hate On TLS?

Postby jks289 » Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:33 pm

NayBoer wrote:
kittenmittons wrote:Cornell if you're serious about NY/NJ. People in NYC haven't heard of GW
First part truth. Second part exaggerated; like half the UG population is from NYC metro area. But still do Cornell over GW for NY.


My understanding was that GW Law schools rep in NY was identical to GWs undergrad rep: A bunch of people who couldn't get into Georgetown.

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ATOIsp07
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Re: Why All The GW Hate On TLS?

Postby ATOIsp07 » Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:36 pm

ersh1428 wrote:Thing is, New Yorkers most certainly know about GW. Maybe not in Duluth, but in New York it's both disingenuous and seriously hyperbolic to imply no one's heard of GW. And in response to why GW places most of its class in DC, that's probably because that's where most of the class wants to be. They currently place about 18% in New York, but I'm sure that if 25% wanted New York, they'd probably get it.

And speaking to Georgetown in particular, how is worth an extra hundred grand to go to a school in the exact same market with a slightly better reputation. It's not the difference between a ranking of 14 and 60. It's typically 14 and 20. I'm really just trying to understand why that's worth the extra year's salary.



GULC > GW. G'town is a rock in the T14 while GW's highest position in rankings has been 20th, from which it slid from this past year. Plus, Georgetown has much more respect in terms of lay prestige. It's a bit disingenuous to claim that G'town is "slightly better".

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holydonkey
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Re: Why All The GW Hate On TLS?

Postby holydonkey » Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:40 pm

GW is a great school. If you got a full ride, you should be happy.

ersh1428
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Re: Why All The GW Hate On TLS?

Postby ersh1428 » Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:41 pm

No one's disputing that Georgetown is better than GW all things being equal. But when there's significant money involved, then yeah, I think that a ranking difference between 14 and 20 is pretty small, since most agree that due to the whole PT rankings fiasco, that's where GW will be back next year. Undoubtedly, GTown has higher lay prestige, but I just can't imagine that both the education and job prospects are so dramatically different, especially considering they're the exact same market.

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kittenmittons
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Re: Why All The GW Hate On TLS?

Postby kittenmittons » Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:44 pm

ATOIsp07 wrote:
ersh1428 wrote:Thing is, New Yorkers most certainly know about GW. Maybe not in Duluth, but in New York it's both disingenuous and seriously hyperbolic to imply no one's heard of GW. And in response to why GW places most of its class in DC, that's probably because that's where most of the class wants to be. They currently place about 18% in New York, but I'm sure that if 25% wanted New York, they'd probably get it.

And speaking to Georgetown in particular, how is worth an extra hundred grand to go to a school in the exact same market with a slightly better reputation. It's not the difference between a ranking of 14 and 60. It's typically 14 and 20. I'm really just trying to understand why that's worth the extra year's salary.



GULC > GW. G'town is a rock in the T14 while GW's highest position in rankings has been 20th, from which it slid from this past year. Plus, Georgetown has much more respect in terms of lay prestige. It's a bit disingenuous to claim that G'town is "slightly better".


It's T13 and Georgetown doesn't make the cut

hth

09042014
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Re: Why All The GW Hate On TLS?

Postby 09042014 » Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:44 pm

kittenmittons wrote:
ATOIsp07 wrote:
ersh1428 wrote:Thing is, New Yorkers most certainly know about GW. Maybe not in Duluth, but in New York it's both disingenuous and seriously hyperbolic to imply no one's heard of GW. And in response to why GW places most of its class in DC, that's probably because that's where most of the class wants to be. They currently place about 18% in New York, but I'm sure that if 25% wanted New York, they'd probably get it.

And speaking to Georgetown in particular, how is worth an extra hundred grand to go to a school in the exact same market with a slightly better reputation. It's not the difference between a ranking of 14 and 60. It's typically 14 and 20. I'm really just trying to understand why that's worth the extra year's salary.



GULC > GW. G'town is a rock in the T14 while GW's highest position in rankings has been 20th, from which it slid from this past year. Plus, Georgetown has much more respect in terms of lay prestige. It's a bit disingenuous to claim that G'town is "slightly better".


It's T13 and Georgetown doesn't make the cut

hth


Exactly, we came to that consensus a while ago.

jk11287
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Re: Why All The GW Hate On TLS?

Postby jk11287 » Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:56 pm

ersh1428 wrote:No one's disputing that Georgetown is better than GW all things being equal. But when there's significant money involved, then yeah, I think that a ranking difference between 14 and 20 is pretty small, since most agree that due to the whole PT rankings fiasco, that's where GW will be back next year. Undoubtedly, GTown has higher lay prestige, but I just can't imagine that both the education and job prospects are so dramatically different, especially considering they're the exact same market.

Obviously GULC is a better school, but there is so much overlap between GULC and GW that ist not like GULC is miles away in prestige. As someone noted, it might be similar to the difference between BU and Harvard; but the way people talk on here, they act like its Cardozo/Columbia or something, which it's not. A lot of people who got into GULC, or could have, choose to go to GW because of money.

And as someone from NY, I can tell you that its actually completely inaccurate to say that nobody here has ever heard of GW. I think people draw misleading conclusions about the school because only about 15% of grads work in NY; it doesn't necessarily mean that GW students can't find jobs here.

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pennstatepride
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Re: Why All The GW Hate On TLS?

Postby pennstatepride » Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:59 pm

GW places very well in NY, and we have a ton of NY firms at OCI. I agree that there is so much hate here on TLS, such as people claiming that paying sticker at GW is never worth it. However, MOST law students pay sticker at their respective schools; how come it is okay to pay sticker at BU/BC/UIUC but not GW? I could go on and on with such comparisons.

Also, most GW grads take the NY Bar exam, so claiming that GW is unheard of in NY is simply false. Every NY firm that I interviewed with during OCI (all of my bids) had a great impression of GW, and had been interviewing here for many many many years due to the ongoing successes of previous GW hires within their firms.

As a poster mentioned a few days ago, GW has the 16th highest medians of all law schools; the student body here is nothing short of amazing, and when compared to GULC for instance, there is no contrasts to be made. Simply put, it is a great law school with great career prospects.

ersh1428
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Re: Why All The GW Hate On TLS?

Postby ersh1428 » Wed Feb 17, 2010 1:01 pm

Look, I'm not some proud GW student with a chip on his shoulder. I'm an 0L with some choices to make. I don't know how long, or even if I'll be practicing law, though it's certainly an option, and am looking for a legal education. Until I hear more than the same platitudes that have been rehashed, I can't justify spending an extra hundred thousand dollars to go to schools that may be T14, but are not T10, compared to one that is traditionally around T20.

Growing up in Northern NJ, I can tell you that the reputation of GW as an institution is more like that of DC's NYU than thinking it's for the kids who couldn't get into Georgetown. (No, I'm not implying the law schools are equivalent---though most outside the legal profession how no idea how strong NYU's law school is). I like Washington, and can envision a career there and in the surrounding area, although I probably do prefer to ultimately work and live near home.

Maybe it's the hypercompetitive nature of TLS, but it seems like there's so much negativity toward GW compared to other comparably ranked schools, even outside the T14, especially for a school that seems to place so well in Big Law. Are GW grads any less competent in the law than other schools? Are job prospects dramatically worse? If not, then what's the real difference, other than prestige?

nycparalegal
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Re: Why All The GW Hate On TLS?

Postby nycparalegal » Wed Feb 17, 2010 1:06 pm

kittenmittons wrote:Cornell if you're serious about NY/NJ. People in NYC haven't heard of GW



That's just not true. There's a new associate at my firm who came from George Washington.

e: Although, I understand one example doesn't mean anything. Also, the recruiters I spoke with respect GW.
Last edited by nycparalegal on Wed Feb 17, 2010 1:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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kittenmittons
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Re: Why All The GW Hate On TLS?

Postby kittenmittons » Wed Feb 17, 2010 1:08 pm

No one at WLRK did UG or JD at GW. Sucks

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ATOIsp07
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Re: Why All The GW Hate On TLS?

Postby ATOIsp07 » Wed Feb 17, 2010 1:10 pm

ersh1428 wrote:Look, I'm not some proud GW student with a chip on his shoulder. I'm an 0L with some choices to make. I don't know how long, or even if I'll be practicing law, though it's certainly an option, and am looking for a legal education. Until I hear more than the same platitudes that have been rehashed, I can't justify spending an extra hundred thousand dollars to go to schools that may be T14, but are not T10, compared to one that is traditionally around T20.

Growing up in Northern NJ, I can tell you that the reputation of GW as an institution is more like that of DC's NYU than thinking it's for the kids who couldn't get into Georgetown. (No, I'm not implying the law schools are equivalent---though most outside the legal profession how no idea how strong NYU's law school is). I like Washington, and can envision a career there and in the surrounding area, although I probably do prefer to ultimately work and live near home.

Maybe it's the hypercompetitive nature of TLS, but it seems like there's so much negativity toward GW compared to other comparably ranked schools, even outside the T14, especially for a school that seems to place so well in Big Law. Are GW grads any less competent in the law than other schools? Are job prospects dramatically worse? If not, then what's the real difference, other than prestige?



How do you feel about American?

insidethetwenty
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Re: Why All The GW Hate On TLS?

Postby insidethetwenty » Wed Feb 17, 2010 1:16 pm

ersh1428 wrote:Maybe it's the hypercompetitive nature of TLS, but it seems like there's so much negativity toward GW compared to other comparably ranked schools, even outside the T14, especially for a school that seems to place so well in Big Law. Are GW grads any less competent in the law than other schools? Are job prospects dramatically worse? If not, then what's the real difference, other than prestige?


Dude, there isn't negativity specifically toward GW for what it is, it's just that it's usually compared to GULC/Cornell, and ceteris paribus, it's not as good. If you can't justify paying 100k more for GULC/Cornell, then that's great. That's a personal financial decision.

The real difference comes in the fact that pretty much any metric you look at (biglaw placement, overall employment, lawyer/judge scores, peer scores, faculty, etc.) GULC/Cornell are better law schools.

Basically all you are trying to do is project a personal opinion about personal finance onto a discussion about objective metrics of law school quality. If I had to take out ANY loans, I wouldn't be going to law school at all, but I'm not going to say that GULC isn't as good of a law school as GW because I am extremely debt averse...

nycparalegal
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Re: Why All The GW Hate On TLS?

Postby nycparalegal » Wed Feb 17, 2010 1:17 pm

kittenmittons wrote:No one at WLRK did UG or JD at GW. Sucks


I don't think so. Please see below:

EDWARD D. HERLIHY (Partner, Corporate)
[Hobart College , B.A., 1969]
[The George Washington University Law School, J.D., 1972]

THEODORE A. LEVINE (Of Counsel, Corporate)
[Rutgers University, B.A., 1966]
[The George Washington University Law School, J.D., 1969]

insidethetwenty
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Re: Why All The GW Hate On TLS?

Postby insidethetwenty » Wed Feb 17, 2010 1:19 pm

nycparalegal wrote:
kittenmittons wrote:No one at WLRK did UG or JD at GW. Sucks


I don't think so. Please see below:

EDWARD D. HERLIHY (Partner, Corporate)
[Hobart College , B.A., 1969]
[The George Washington University Law School, J.D., 1972]

THEODORE A. LEVINE (Of Counsel, Corporate)
[Rutgers University, B.A., 1966]
[The George Washington University Law School, J.D., 1969]


pwned




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