Yale v. Stanford Forum

[BioEBear2010]

Since we're all gunning for those SCOTUS clerkships and all...

I will fight you to the death, Pausanias. 20 paces.

[tinman]

I don't agree, however, with the statement:"I would imagine that if you are top of your class at Harvard and are editor-in-chief of the law review, you are probably in a better position than any other student at any other law school." I think that if you have all Hs at Yale or all Hs and book prizes at Stanford, no doors will be closed to you.

I meant this more from the point of view of feeder judges/SCOTUS clerkships, but I may be wrong. It just seems like there are always all these Harvard law review editors in those slots. I guess you could say the same about Yale. Stanford doesn't even consistently place with Kozinsky. Since we're all gunning for those SCOTUS clerkships and all...

I have a 3L friend here at YLS who got a job with Kozinsky even without being on the journal. Yale dominates clerkships. Do you want to go to a school where you have to be a law review editor to get journal or where you
merely have to be a top student

Harvard has tons of lay prestige, but if ultra-competitive clerkships are your thing, you should come to Yale.

[crackberry]

Harvard has tons of lay prestige, but if ultra-competitive clerkships are your thing, you should come to Yale.

Well first, I have no interest in Harvard, but second, I was under the impression that for plain old COA clerkships (esp. on the Ninth Circuit), there wasn't a whole lot of difference between Stanford and Yale. SCOTUS clerkships are a different story, I know, but by no means am I planning on a shot at SCOTUS.

[NightHooded]

I figure if you love Stanford, stay there... but there is something to be said about switching your environment, especially for YLS of all places.

Am I correct in assuming all three of Stanford, Yale and Harvard have roughly the same job prospects? (big law)

[crackberry]

I figure if you love Stanford, stay there... but there is something to be said about switching your environment, especially for YLS of all places.

Am I correct in assuming all three of Stanford, Yale and Harvard have roughly the same job prospects? (big law)

Essentially. H/Y might be slightly better on the East Coast, but I don't think a Stanford student is going to be shut out of NYC BigLaw provided he isn't getting a lot of LPs (which basically don't exist anyway). I don't want BigLaw though so this is irrelevant to me.

Also, for those who care, I'm pretty sure that if I get into Yale, I'm going to go. Of course I'll visit both, but I'm definitely leaning that way — for a number of reasons, not least of which is getting a second school on my resume.

[gymboree]

You can have one ultra-prestigious school on your resume, or two.

I have to say I agree with this. Stanford --> Stanford on a resume looks like... well, not as good as say, Stanford --> Yale (or Stanford --> any T6, for that matter). Mix it up!

That said, the advice I'm getting again and again from lawyers I know is: go to school where you want to practice.

Conundrum. And a fine one, at that.

[crackberry]

You can have one ultra-prestigious school on your resume, or two.

I have to say I agree with this. Stanford --> Stanford on a resume looks like... well, not as good as say, Stanford --> Yale (or Stanford --> any T6, for that matter). Mix it up!

That said, the advice I'm getting again and again from lawyers I know is: go to school where you want to practice.

Conundrum. And a fine one, at that.

There's definitely something to be said for this, but I really think Stanford/Stanford looks better than Stanford/any T6 except Stanford/Harvard or Stanford/Yale.

I'd much rather have Stanford/Stanford than, say, Stanford/NYU.

Blatant anti-NYU trolling, yes.

[ConMan345]

You can have one ultra-prestigious school on your resume, or two.

I have to say I agree with this. Stanford --> Stanford on a resume looks like... well, not as good as say, Stanford --> Yale (or Stanford --> any T6, for that matter). Mix it up!

That said, the advice I'm getting again and again from lawyers I know is: go to school where you want to practice.

Conundrum. And a fine one, at that.

I've heard this as well (from a Stanford Law grad about 15 years out)

[BioEBear2010]

You can have one ultra-prestigious school on your resume, or two.

I have to say I agree with this. Stanford --> Stanford on a resume looks like... well, not as good as say, Stanford --> Yale (or Stanford --> any T6, for that matter). Mix it up!

That said, the advice I'm getting again and again from lawyers I know is: go to school where you want to practice.

Conundrum. And a fine one, at that.

I've heard this as well (from a Stanford Law grad about 15 years out)

Heard it, too. The problem is that many of us don't have a clue what we want to do after law school. I've lived in California my whole life, and I think it would be pretty myopic of me to not at least get a taste of the East Coast.

[crackberry]

Heard it, too. The problem is that many of us don't have a clue what we want to do after law school. I've lived in California my whole life, and I think it would be pretty myopic of me to not at least get a taste of the East Coast.

Yeah, on the other hand I'm from the East Coast and I KNOW I want to work in California. I spoke to a couple lawyers who work in SF the other day — one went to SLS, the other to YLS — and both said there are WAY more SLS grads than YLS grads in SF firms (though they agreed this is largely due to self-selection).

[ConMan345]

Heard it, too. The problem is that many of us don't have a clue what we want to do after law school. I've lived in California my whole life, and I think it would be pretty myopic of me to not at least get a taste of the East Coast.

Yeah, on the other hand I'm from the East Coast and I KNOW I want to work in California. I spoke to a couple lawyers who work in SF the other day — one went to SLS, the other to YLS — and both said there are WAY more SLS grads than YLS grads in SF firms (though they agreed this is largely due to self-selection).

HLS's persistent perk: alums be everywhere.

[BioEBear2010]

Heard it, too. The problem is that many of us don't have a clue what we want to do after law school. I've lived in California my whole life, and I think it would be pretty myopic of me to not at least get a taste of the East Coast.

Yeah, on the other hand I'm from the East Coast and I KNOW I want to work in California. I spoke to a couple lawyers who work in SF the other day — one went to SLS, the other to YLS — and both said there are WAY more SLS grads than YLS grads in SF firms (though they agreed this is largely due to self-selection).

If you're dead-set on working in California, I honestly think Stanford's the right choice. You get the SLS/California network, firms know that you want to be in California, and you get to enjoy the beautiful Cali weather. You can also clerk in the 9th circuit. Sure, Yale places a wee bit better in clerkships and academia, but the difference is pretty negligible. Also, fwiw, I think that SLS produces the best practicing attorneys (but you're not interested in BigLaw, so this doesn't really matter).

[crackberry]

Heard it, too. The problem is that many of us don't have a clue what we want to do after law school. I've lived in California my whole life, and I think it would be pretty myopic of me to not at least get a taste of the East Coast.

Yeah, on the other hand I'm from the East Coast and I KNOW I want to work in California. I spoke to a couple lawyers who work in SF the other day — one went to SLS, the other to YLS — and both said there are WAY more SLS grads than YLS grads in SF firms (though they agreed this is largely due to self-selection).

If you're dead-set on working in California, I honestly think Stanford's the right choice. You get the SLS/California network, firms know that you want to be in California, and you get to enjoy the beautiful Cali weather. You can also clerk in the 9th circuit. Sure, Yale places a wee bit better in clerkships and academia, but the difference is pretty negligible. Also, fwiw, I think that SLS produces the best practicing attorneys (but you're not interested in BigLaw, so this doesn't really matter).

I call nepotism (not exactly the right word, but you know what I mean).

Also, I have Stanford UG on my resume so I'm not worried about NorCal connections.

[joshikousei]

You can have one ultra-prestigious school on your resume, or two.

this.

but, uh, you need to get in first.

[tinman]

Harvard has tons of lay prestige, but if ultra-competitive clerkships are your thing, you should come to Yale.

Well first, I have no interest in Harvard, but second, I was under the impression that for plain old COA clerkships (esp. on the Ninth Circuit), there wasn't a whole lot of difference between Stanford and Yale. SCOTUS clerkships are a different story, I know, but by no means am I planning on a shot at SCOTUS.

Yes, for plain old COA clerkships, I don't think there is a whole lot of difference between Stanford and Yale. But the Yale people I know who go to the 9th Circuit, go to work for the top feeder judges (i.e., those who are a potential springboard to SCOTUS). I think that even for the 9th circuit, Yale is better for clerkships (the numbers may not show it, but I think that is due completely to self-selection). COA clerkships are like BigLaw firms: all are not equal. If you have the ability to get into HYS and are already thinking about COA clerkships, then you probably will not be satisfied with a plain old COA clerkship (when the time comes; perhaps now you think you don't care about SCOTUS, but this may change). If clerkships or academia are your thing, I really think it would be silly to choose S over Y.

I figure if you love Stanford, stay there... but there is something to be said about switching your environment, especially for YLS of all places.

Am I correct in assuming all three of Stanford, Yale and Harvard have roughly the same job prospects? (big law)

Yes, I think that all have roughly the same BigLaw prospects. Unless you plan to get low passes (which are more of a danger at S and H), you will be able to get an awesome firm job from any. As BioEBear suggests, Stanford may be a better choice if you want to work in CA, but I think this is mostly because more Cali firms will come to interview at Stanford and more of your friends will stay in Cali with you. You can certainly get jobs in California from H or Y, but you are also more likely to get sucked into life in NYC and DC. I think it could be worth it to go to Stanford just to avoid this temptations (not for any placement advantage for S), if you are absolutely set on California.

But yes, the people making the choice among YHS are all spoiled. And I don't think it will matter very much what you choose. I think it really comes down to this: Stanford has the best weather and perhaps better firm training. Yale has by far a more chill first year and better academic training. And Harvard has way more international and lay prestige. No matter how may times you post on TLS, nor how many times you study the data and run various calculations, you cannot optimize all factors.

[crackberry]

I think it really comes down to this: Stanford has the best weather and perhaps better firm training. Yale has by far a more chill first year and better academic training. And Harvard has way more international and lay prestige. No matter how may times you post on TLS, nor how many times you study the data and run various calculations, you cannot optimize all factors.

I think this is probably TCR. Now, just gotta wait on Yale.

[rabbit9198]

Yes, I think that all have roughly the same BigLaw prospects. Unless you plan to get low passes (which are more of a danger at S and H), you will be able to get an awesome firm job from any. As BioEBear suggests, Stanford may be a better choice if you want to work in CA, but I think this is mostly because more Cali firms will come to interview at Stanford and more of your friends will stay in Cali with you. You can certainly get jobs in California from H or Y, but you are also more likely to get sucked into life in NYC and DC. I think it could be worth it to go to Stanford just to avoid this temptations (not for any placement advantage for S), if you are absolutely set on California.

I would put one asterisk here: during 2L OCI this fall, my sense from talking to friends at HLS/SLS was that it was a bit (sometimes, based on your class performance/whether or not you're on Law Review at Harvard, a lot) harder to get DC and CA jobs out of Harvard than it was out of Yale/Stanford. Both the DC and CA markets were relatively tough to break into this year (I assume CA was much easier for Stanford people), even at Yale - i.e., you had to really really prove a CA connection to get a spot there, and some people who wanted to be in DC didn't get that option. People at Harvard were in many cases shut out of DC/CA entirely. My sense, on the whole, is that middle-of-the-pack at Harvard had a much harder time getting DC/CA than middle-of-the-pack at either Stanford or Yale.

[NightHooded]

I would put one asterisk here: during 2L OCI this fall, my sense from talking to friends at HLS/SLS was that it was a bit (sometimes, based on your class performance/whether or not you're on Law Review at Harvard, a lot) harder to get DC and CA jobs out of Harvard than it was out of Yale/Stanford. Both the DC and CA markets were relatively tough to break into this year (I assume CA was much easier for Stanford people), even at Yale - i.e., you had to really really prove a CA connection to get a spot there, and some people who wanted to be in DC didn't get that option. People at Harvard were in many cases shut out of DC/CA entirely. My sense, on the whole, is that middle-of-the-pack at Harvard had a much harder time getting DC/CA than middle-of-the-pack at either Stanford or Yale.

What if you want NY big law? I'm assuming SLS would fare worse than HLS or YLS...

Actually, out of curiosity and the OPs sake: can you mention your acceptance to one as bait to the other?

For example, tell YLS you are into SLS, and yet YLS is your top choice... Or tell HLS you're into SLS and HLS is your top choice... Of course I mean if it's true. Would that help or look tacky? OP should make up his mind and then go for broke?

[Dignan]

I would put one asterisk here: during 2L OCI this fall, my sense from talking to friends at HLS/SLS was that it was a bit (sometimes, based on your class performance/whether or not you're on Law Review at Harvard, a lot) harder to get DC and CA jobs out of Harvard than it was out of Yale/Stanford. Both the DC and CA markets were relatively tough to break into this year (I assume CA was much easier for Stanford people), even at Yale - i.e., you had to really really prove a CA connection to get a spot there, and some people who wanted to be in DC didn't get that option. People at Harvard were in many cases shut out of DC/CA entirely. My sense, on the whole, is that middle-of-the-pack at Harvard had a much harder time getting DC/CA than middle-of-the-pack at either Stanford or Yale.

What if you want NY big law? I'm assuming SLS would fare worse than HLS or YLS...

Actually, out of curiosity and the OPs sake: can you mention your acceptance to one as bait to the other?

For example, tell YLS you are into SLS, and yet YLS is your top choice... Or tell HLS you're into SLS and HLS is your top choice... Of course I mean if it's true. Would that help or look tacky? OP should make up his mind and then go for broke?

I don't know for sure, but I suspect that YLS would be rather unimpressed by a pre-decision communication from an applicant that mentioned an acceptance by another school, even a school of the caliber of SLS. The downside to such a communication is a quick toss into the ding pile; the upside is, well, nothing.

If you get waitlisted, I suppose it couldn't hurt to write that you would definitely attend YLS if offered a spot. Even then, though, I wouldn't mention Stanford's (or any other school's) decision to accept you. I think anything that suggests "This school accepted me, so you should too" is going to turn Yale off.

[crackberry]

I would put one asterisk here: during 2L OCI this fall, my sense from talking to friends at HLS/SLS was that it was a bit (sometimes, based on your class performance/whether or not you're on Law Review at Harvard, a lot) harder to get DC and CA jobs out of Harvard than it was out of Yale/Stanford. Both the DC and CA markets were relatively tough to break into this year (I assume CA was much easier for Stanford people), even at Yale - i.e., you had to really really prove a CA connection to get a spot there, and some people who wanted to be in DC didn't get that option. People at Harvard were in many cases shut out of DC/CA entirely. My sense, on the whole, is that middle-of-the-pack at Harvard had a much harder time getting DC/CA than middle-of-the-pack at either Stanford or Yale.

What if you want NY big law? I'm assuming SLS would fare worse than HLS or YLS...

Actually, out of curiosity and the OPs sake: can you mention your acceptance to one as bait to the other?

For example, tell YLS you are into SLS, and yet YLS is your top choice... Or tell HLS you're into SLS and HLS is your top choice... Of course I mean if it's true. Would that help or look tacky? OP should make up his mind and then go for broke?

I don't know for sure, but I suspect that YLS would be rather unimpressed by a pre-decision communication from an applicant that mentioned an acceptance by another school, even a school of the caliber of SLS. The downside to such a communication is a quick toss into the ding pile; the upside is, well, nothing.

If you get waitlisted, I suppose it couldn't hurt to write that you would definitely attend YLS if offered a spot. Even then, though, I wouldn't mention Stanford's (or any other school's) decision to accept you. I think anything that suggests "This school accepted me, so you should too" is going to turn Yale off.

Yeah I'd never do this.

[tinman]

I would put one asterisk here: during 2L OCI this fall, my sense from talking to friends at HLS/SLS was that it was a bit (sometimes, based on your class performance/whether or not you're on Law Review at Harvard, a lot) harder to get DC and CA jobs out of Harvard than it was out of Yale/Stanford. Both the DC and CA markets were relatively tough to break into this year (I assume CA was much easier for Stanford people), even at Yale - i.e., you had to really really prove a CA connection to get a spot there, and some people who wanted to be in DC didn't get that option. People at Harvard were in many cases shut out of DC/CA entirely. My sense, on the whole, is that middle-of-the-pack at Harvard had a much harder time getting DC/CA than middle-of-the-pack at either Stanford or Yale.

What if you want NY big law? I'm assuming SLS would fare worse than HLS or YLS...

Actually, out of curiosity and the OPs sake: can you mention your acceptance to one as bait to the other?

For example, tell YLS you are into SLS, and yet YLS is your top choice... Or tell HLS you're into SLS and HLS is your top choice... Of course I mean if it's true. Would that help or look tacky? OP should make up his mind and then go for broke?

I don't know for sure, but I suspect that YLS would be rather unimpressed by a pre-decision communication from an applicant that mentioned an acceptance by another school, even a school of the caliber of SLS. The downside to such a communication is a quick toss into the ding pile; the upside is, well, nothing.

If you get waitlisted, I suppose it couldn't hurt to write that you would definitely attend YLS if offered a spot. Even then, though, I wouldn't mention Stanford's (or any other school's) decision to accept you. I think anything that suggests "This school accepted me, so you should too" is going to turn Yale off.

Yeah I'd never do this.

Except that Asha patrols these boards, so you have, effectively, done this

[NightHooded]

Even then, though, I wouldn't mention Stanford's (or any other school's) decision to accept you. I think anything that suggests "This school accepted me, so you should too" is going to turn Yale off.

How much of that is a Yale thing, out of curiosity?

Do you think -switching the tables- telling HLS of an SLS/YLS admit, or SLS of a HLS/YLS admit, would be detrimental?

I read an adcomm quote saying they liked hearing of other admissions. Now, mind you, it wasn't HYS and it was in a book and blah blah blah, but it stuck in my mind

[tinman]

Even then, though, I wouldn't mention Stanford's (or any other school's) decision to accept you. I think anything that suggests "This school accepted me, so you should too" is going to turn Yale off.

How much of that is a Yale thing, out of curiosity?

Do you think -switching the tables- telling HLS of an SLS/YLS admit, or SLS of a HLS/YLS admit, would be detrimental?

I read an adcomm quote saying they liked hearing of other admissions. Now, mind you, it wasn't HYS and it was in a book and blah blah blah, but it stuck in my mind

I think you can mention other admissions when you get to negotiating financial aid, but I would shy away from it beforehand. Especially with the schools with mega-egos.

[crackberry]

Yeah I'd never do this.

Except that Asha patrols these boards, so you have, effectively, done this

Err, hmm...

[notanumber]

Yeah I'd never do this.

Except that Asha patrols these boards, so you have, effectively, done this

Err, hmm...

I think now is an opportune time to post this link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CT35nE15mk