Chicago v. NYU v. Penn

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Renzo
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Re: Chicago v. NYU v. Penn

Postby Renzo » Sun Feb 21, 2010 11:10 am

hiro86 wrote:Also, I think Chicago deserves the praise it gets. At least in terms of job placement. Chicago seems to equal Columbia in terms of big law placement (can't go straight off the percentages). The same cannot be said for NYU, Penn, Berkeley, etc. I agree that much of the T14 is similar in terms of big law placement, but these small differences become huge if you end up being in the X% of the class that gets big law at Columbia, that would may not get it at Penn. The difference in payoffs between getting and not getting big law is simply too large to ignore even small differences in placement.

Ugh. Where do you anti-NYU trolls keep coming from? If you're not using actual data, where are basing this on? I don't hate on your has-been school for falling solidly behind a bankrupt state school in the rankings, so why are you hating on mine based on imagined employment differences?

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tintin
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Re: Chicago v. NYU v. Penn

Postby tintin » Sun Feb 21, 2010 11:29 am

hiro86 wrote:Also, I think Chicago deserves the praise it gets. At least in terms of job placement. Chicago seems to equal Columbia in terms of big law placement (can't go straight off the percentages). The same cannot be said for NYU, Penn, Berkeley, etc. I agree that much of the T14 is similar in terms of big law placement, but these small differences become huge if you end up being in the X% of the class that gets big law at Columbia, that would may not get it at Penn. The difference in payoffs between getting and not getting big law is simply too large to ignore even small differences in placement.


but for those of us with no interest in biglaw, this difference doesn't matter. in things like gov / PI, NYU probably has the edge I would imagine.


the answer i want to know is, why does chicago do so well in academia? is this self-selection on the part of students who end up there, or because of chicago's small class size, or a product of the learning environment there? is there a tangible benefit to going to chicago v nyu or penn for academia or is it just the nature of the people who end up there?

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roxj
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Re: Chicago v. NYU v. Penn

Postby roxj » Mon Feb 22, 2010 10:17 pm

Tintin: I don't think you'll have any problems as a gay liberal at Chicago. The student body is pretty mixed, and when you have a city as big as Chi, there is going to be a large gay community.

My best friend is a 3L at Chi, and she is a typical Seattle liberal. She chose it for the reputation/job prospects over Duke, Mich, etc. She says that it is not nearly as intense as the undergrad school. I can't remember this detail exactly, but she also told me that the first quarter finals aren't graded, or only one is graded, or you don't take them until second quarter, or something else along these lines, so you ease in to the academics. That being said, I think she mentioned her grades aren't great because the curve or whatever is really hard. She says it doesn't matter because everyone gets a job. She already has a job offer, btw.

She ALSO told me that people at Chi love going out. They have bar review each week, and it is always packed, as is law prom, so people at the school know how to have a good time. I did get the impression from her that it's a bit high school-esque, since the class is so small. Everyone knows who's been hooking up or who got really drunk, etc.

I say all this, but I should admit that I'm leaning towards NYU or Mich over Chi. I love Chicago the most city-wise (my family's from there), but I want something more laid back.

hopefullaw27
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Re: Chicago v. NYU v. Penn

Postby hopefullaw27 » Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:17 am

Hey renzo/anyone who knows,

could you speak to the class room setting? As in professor student relations (considering NYU has such a large student body, is there lively discussion, and do professors try to engage with the student)? I'm a little worried since my undergrad major entailed 100 person lectures where students hardly ever engaged with the professors. Also, I've been hearing/seeing that NYU has been recently recruiting some stellar faculty members (Epstein), could you talk about that too?

Thanks!

twistedwrister
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Re: Chicago v. NYU v. Penn

Postby twistedwrister » Tue Feb 23, 2010 2:09 pm

hopefullaw27 wrote:Hey renzo/anyone who knows,

could you speak to the class room setting? As in professor student relations (considering NYU has such a large student body, is there lively discussion, and do professors try to engage with the student)? I'm a little worried since my undergrad major entailed 100 person lectures where students hardly ever engaged with the professors. Also, I've been hearing/seeing that NYU has been recently recruiting some stellar faculty members (Epstein), could you talk about that too?

Thanks!


I'm biased, but in my opinion, NYU has one of the top faculties in the country, and it keeps getting better. Basically, NYU has been "poaching" top profs from other law schools and hasn't really lost anyone in return.
From http://www.thefacultylounge.org/2009/01/law-faculty-lateral-moves-list-2009.html:

2009 Law Faculty Lateral Moves

New York University

Richard Epstein from Chicago (though, based on Brian Leiter's more detailed account, one can debate whether this qualifies)
Katherine Strandburg from De Paul
Jose Alvarez from Columbia
Barton Beebe from Yeshiva Cardozo
Ryan Goodman from Harvard
John Stephens from Georgetown

NYU also has some amazing adjunct profs. This semester, Evan Chesler, the presiding partner at Cravath and one of the top litigators in the country, is teaching a trial advocacy seminar.

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badfish
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Re: Chicago v. NYU v. Penn

Postby badfish » Tue Feb 23, 2010 5:03 pm

tintin wrote:
hiro86 wrote:Also, I think Chicago deserves the praise it gets. At least in terms of job placement. Chicago seems to equal Columbia in terms of big law placement (can't go straight off the percentages). The same cannot be said for NYU, Penn, Berkeley, etc. I agree that much of the T14 is similar in terms of big law placement, but these small differences become huge if you end up being in the X% of the class that gets big law at Columbia, that would may not get it at Penn. The difference in payoffs between getting and not getting big law is simply too large to ignore even small differences in placement.


but for those of us with no interest in biglaw, this difference doesn't matter. in things like gov / PI, NYU probably has the edge I would imagine.


the answer i want to know is, why does chicago do so well in academia? is this self-selection on the part of students who end up there, or because of chicago's small class size, or a product of the learning environment there? is there a tangible benefit to going to chicago v nyu or penn for academia or is it just the nature of the people who end up there?


Judges tend to like Chicago's grading system and there's generally less competition for courts in the midwest than there is for west coast/east coast courts. As a result Chi students do very well with clerking and clerkships are a nice segway into academia. It also helps that dropping the U of C bomb is essentially lubricant in an intellectual circle jerk.

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badfish
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Re: Chicago v. NYU v. Penn

Postby badfish » Tue Feb 23, 2010 5:05 pm

twistedwrister wrote:
hopefullaw27 wrote:Hey renzo/anyone who knows,

could you speak to the class room setting? As in professor student relations (considering NYU has such a large student body, is there lively discussion, and do professors try to engage with the student)? I'm a little worried since my undergrad major entailed 100 person lectures where students hardly ever engaged with the professors. Also, I've been hearing/seeing that NYU has been recently recruiting some stellar faculty members (Epstein), could you talk about that too?

Thanks!


I'm biased, but in my opinion, NYU has one of the top faculties in the country, and it keeps getting better. Basically, NYU has been "poaching" top profs from other law schools and hasn't really lost anyone in return.
From http://www.thefacultylounge.org/2009/01/law-faculty-lateral-moves-list-2009.html:

2009 Law Faculty Lateral Moves

New York University

Richard Epstein from Chicago (though, based on Brian Leiter's more detailed account, one can debate whether this qualifies)
Katherine Strandburg from De Paul
Jose Alvarez from Columbia
Barton Beebe from Yeshiva Cardozo
Ryan Goodman from Harvard
John Stephens from Georgetown

NYU also has some amazing adjunct profs. This semester, Evan Chesler, the presiding partner at Cravath and one of the top litigators in the country, is teaching a trial advocacy seminar.


I also think that NYU has the best faculty in the country. My professors are all available to me (even if I don't take full advantage). Generally speaking, they know my name and basically know who I am and what I am about. Faculty at NYU are encouraged (and most do) take students out for faculty-student lunches a number of times per year. Basically you sign up at the beginning of the year for lunch with a faculty member and then when your day comes you go with them and about 11 other students to have a private meal with the faculty member as he or she learns more about you. I've found this to be an extremely good way to get to know faculty.

Renzo
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Re: Chicago v. NYU v. Penn

Postby Renzo » Tue Feb 23, 2010 6:46 pm

I think all that has been said above about the professors is true. I would also add that in general there will be more interaction in law school than in most undergrad classes because of the Socratic method, which pretty much all 1L profs use to some extent.

lz06
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Re: Chicago v. NYU v. Penn

Postby lz06 » Wed Feb 24, 2010 3:59 pm

I'm in the same position as OP except add UVA and Duke to the list. Basically I have no idea what I'm doing with my life and I'm freaking out because I have around 2 months to decide. Scholarships haven't made anything easier. I'm hoping after I visit everything will just click :shock:

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violaboy
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Re: Chicago v. NYU v. Penn

Postby violaboy » Thu Feb 25, 2010 7:41 pm

lz06 wrote:I'm in the same position as OP except add UVA and Duke to the list. Basically I have no idea what I'm doing with my life and I'm freaking out because I have around 2 months to decide. Scholarships haven't made anything easier. I'm hoping after I visit everything will just click :shock:


Me too. I'm hoping that my visits will really help me make the decision.

hiro86
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Re: Chicago v. NYU v. Penn

Postby hiro86 » Thu Feb 25, 2010 8:46 pm

Renzo wrote:
hiro86 wrote:Also, I think Chicago deserves the praise it gets. At least in terms of job placement. Chicago seems to equal Columbia in terms of big law placement (can't go straight off the percentages). The same cannot be said for NYU, Penn, Berkeley, etc. I agree that much of the T14 is similar in terms of big law placement, but these small differences become huge if you end up being in the X% of the class that gets big law at Columbia, that would may not get it at Penn. The difference in payoffs between getting and not getting big law is simply too large to ignore even small differences in placement.

Ugh. Where do you anti-NYU trolls keep coming from? If you're not using actual data, where are basing this on? I don't hate on your has-been school for falling solidly behind a bankrupt state school in the rankings, so why are you hating on mine based on imagined employment differences?

I don't go to Chicago... but anyways I'm basing my opinion regarding NYU on the following:
http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1
http://lawfirmaddict.blogspot.com/2006/ ... ement.html
http://lawfirmaddict2007.blogspot.com/ (consider that NYU has about 4x as many students targeting NYC compared to Chicago)
http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2003 ... onal.shtml
http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2008job_biglaw.shtml

I don't claim that any of these stats are perfect indicators, but its hard to argue that NYU is better than either of CC after looking at those links.

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im_blue
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Re: Chicago v. NYU v. Penn

Postby im_blue » Thu Feb 25, 2010 8:52 pm

hiro86 wrote:
Renzo wrote:
hiro86 wrote:Also, I think Chicago deserves the praise it gets. At least in terms of job placement. Chicago seems to equal Columbia in terms of big law placement (can't go straight off the percentages). The same cannot be said for NYU, Penn, Berkeley, etc. I agree that much of the T14 is similar in terms of big law placement, but these small differences become huge if you end up being in the X% of the class that gets big law at Columbia, that would may not get it at Penn. The difference in payoffs between getting and not getting big law is simply too large to ignore even small differences in placement.

Ugh. Where do you anti-NYU trolls keep coming from? If you're not using actual data, where are basing this on? I don't hate on your has-been school for falling solidly behind a bankrupt state school in the rankings, so why are you hating on mine based on imagined employment differences?

I don't go to Chicago... but anyways I'm basing my opinion regarding NYU on the following:
http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1
http://lawfirmaddict.blogspot.com/2006/ ... ement.html
http://lawfirmaddict2007.blogspot.com/ (consider that NYU has about 4x as many students targeting NYC compared to Chicago)
http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2003 ... onal.shtml
http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2008job_biglaw.shtml

I don't claim that any of these stats are perfect indicators, but its hard to argue that NYU is better than either of CC after looking at those links.

+1. I'm not claiming that N belongs in the MVPB tier, but there are real and measurable biglaw employment differences between CC and N, both in and out of NYC.

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Re: Chicago v. NYU v. Penn

Postby Renzo » Fri Feb 26, 2010 12:58 am

hiro86 wrote:
Renzo wrote:Ugh. Where do you anti-NYU trolls keep coming from? If you're not using actual data, where are basing this on? I don't hate on your has-been school for falling solidly behind a bankrupt state school in the rankings, so why are you hating on mine based on imagined employment differences?

I don't go to Chicago... but anyways I'm basing my opinion regarding NYU on the following:
http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1
http://lawfirmaddict.blogspot.com/2006/ ... ement.html
http://lawfirmaddict2007.blogspot.com/ (consider that NYU has about 4x as many students targeting NYC compared to Chicago)
http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2003 ... onal.shtml
http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2008job_biglaw.shtml

I don't claim that any of these stats are perfect indicators, but its hard to argue that NYU is better than either of CC after looking at those links.

I'll do this one-by-one:
This one says that 3% more of the class went to NLJ250 firms from UChi than from NYU last year. Keeping in mind that 3% of Chicago's class is 6 people, and keeping in mind that NLJ250 firms don't account for boutiques, in-house jobs, or consulting jobs, are you really arguing that six people in one year proves one school is better than the other?

This one shows 83 NYU grads hired by V100 firms compared to 34 UChi grads. Even if you account for class size, that's a blowout. Oh, but you made up a number to multiply it by to make it look better for your argument, so nevermind.

This one's just crazy. First, it's from 2003. Then, the methodology is to include only 3 firms from each region, to intentionally bias it against NYC. Any list that assumes more top school grads wanted to work in the 3rd largest firm in Seattle than wanted to work in the 4th largest firm in NYC hardly seems worth spending too much time on.

This one shows that the ratio of NYU to UChi grads at the listed firms is .085. Setting aside that it is a survey of 15 of the V24 firms that had searchable websites, and thus as far from scientific as could be, that's something. BUT, I repeated the same methods, only including firms inside the V10 with searchable sites with last years data and the ratio is 1.275 (a blowout for NYU again). I think if you tell me what school you want to look good, I can manipulate this stupid and unscientific method to get you the result you want. Given that Leiter has always liked UChi, I'm not surprised he found a cutoff that favored that school.

This one says in 2006 there were 274 NYU grads and 137 UChi grads hired by the V100. If you account for class size, that makes Uchi look a little better (61% v. 74%). Those numbers are really good for both schools, but admittedly better for UChi if you believe in controlling for class size (I'm not convinced that's the best way, but I don't want to argue it, so get the win here).

Look, the bottom line is that both are good schools, and both will provide plenty good opportunities. But the idea that one is so clearly better than the other is an unsupported and unprovable opinion.

hiro86
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Re: Chicago v. NYU v. Penn

Postby hiro86 » Fri Feb 26, 2010 1:44 am

Renzo wrote:
hiro86 wrote:
Renzo wrote:Ugh. Where do you anti-NYU trolls keep coming from? If you're not using actual data, where are basing this on? I don't hate on your has-been school for falling solidly behind a bankrupt state school in the rankings, so why are you hating on mine based on imagined employment differences?

I don't go to Chicago... but anyways I'm basing my opinion regarding NYU on the following:
http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1
http://lawfirmaddict.blogspot.com/2006/ ... ement.html
http://lawfirmaddict2007.blogspot.com/ (consider that NYU has about 4x as many students targeting NYC compared to Chicago)
http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2003 ... onal.shtml
http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2008job_biglaw.shtml

I don't claim that any of these stats are perfect indicators, but its hard to argue that NYU is better than either of CC after looking at those links.

I'll do this one-by-one:
This one says that 3% more of the class went to NLJ250 firms from UChi than from NYU last year. Keeping in mind that 3% of Chicago's class is 6 people, and keeping in mind that NLJ250 firms don't account for boutiques, in-house jobs, or consulting jobs, are you really arguing that six people in one year proves one school is better than the other?
Well, dating back to 2005 (not sure about 2006), Chicago has outplaced NYU at NLJ250 firms.

This one shows 83 NYU grads hired by V100 firms compared to 34 UChi grads. Even if you account for class size, that's a blowout. Oh, but you made up a number to multiply it by to make it look better for your argument, so nevermind.
NYU definitely has 3-4x as many students targeting NYC, it's not really debatable. There are many ways to look at the 2007 data. I just noticed that Chicago and NYU have the same number of people going to Watchell (which should not be the case if the schools place equally as well).

This one's just crazy. First, it's from 2003. Then, the methodology is to include only 3 firms from each region, to intentionally bias it against NYC. Any list that assumes more top school grads wanted to work in the 3rd largest firm in Seattle than wanted to work in the 4th largest firm in NYC hardly seems worth spending too much time on.
Like I said, not all of these links are perfect, but I posted all of the placement studies that I know of.

This one shows that the ratio of NYU to UChi grads at the listed firms is .085. Setting aside that it is a survey of 15 of the V24 firms that had searchable websites, and thus as far from scientific as could be, that's something. BUT, I repeated the same methods, only including firms inside the V10 with searchable sites with last years data and the ratio is 1.275 (a blowout for NYU again). I think if you tell me what school you want to look good, I can manipulate this stupid and unscientific method to get you the result you want. Given that Leiter has always liked UChi, I'm not surprised he found a cutoff that favored that school.
V10 obviously favors NYC schools. So, going beyond V10 firms will generally cut down on the pro-NYC bias. I see nothing wrong with that.

This one says in 2006 there were 274 NYU grads and 137 UChi grads hired by the V100. If you account for class size, that makes Uchi look a little better (61% v. 74%). Those numbers are really good for both schools, but admittedly better for UChi if you believe in controlling for class size (I'm not convinced that's the best way, but I don't want to argue it, so get the win here).

Look, the bottom line is that both are good schools, and both will provide plenty good opportunities. But the idea that one is so clearly better than the other is an unsupported and unprovable opinion.
Both are very good schools, I merely argued that Columbia and Chicago place a little better in big law than NYU. I have responded to your request for some evidence and my position is clearly supported.

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Re: Chicago v. NYU v. Penn

Postby Renzo » Fri Feb 26, 2010 2:21 am

hiro86 wrote:NYU definitely has 3-4x as many students targeting NYC, it's not really debatable.

Prove this and I'll get a UChi tattoo on any body location of your choosing.


As for your more general point, you were not "merely saying" that UChi and CLS do "a little better" in biglaw placement; you said "these small differences become huge." It's this argument I'm disagreeing with, such small differences are never huge.

From all of your sources, it looks like one school or the other is better depending on how you define "biglaw"--if it's the V100, NYU wins, if its the NLJ250, Uchi wins. But neither of these are anything more than a rough proxy for job placement, so obsessing over the 3% of a class that went to NLJ250 firms, or the 50 extra alums in the V100 is just a waste of time, and is NOT more important to your future career than geographic proximity to where you want to work, happiness with your school, networking opportunities, interviewing opportunities, etc.

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Reedie
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Re: Chicago v. NYU v. Penn

Postby Reedie » Fri Feb 26, 2010 2:43 am

YO! Reason!

These placement stats do NOT show enough difference to support the distinctions you are making. Other factors--like self selection--play too big of a role. It's clear NYU, Columbia and Chicago all place very very well. The evidence is consistent with--but does not prove--a very slight advantage for CC. Saying anything else just goes way beyond the evidence at hand--especially given Chicago's small class size, and small PI placement. I do think you could say that Chicago has historically done better placing in the academic job market, the stats there are different enough to be meaningful.

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The Brainalist
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Re: Chicago v. NYU v. Penn

Postby The Brainalist » Fri Feb 26, 2010 3:11 am

I'm not saying that it is so much that other subjective preferences shouldn't be more determinative, but it does seem significant that the differences, be they only marginal, are consistent year to year. Every year CC's NLJ250 are higher than NYU. Every Year their reputation scores are higher than NYU. Every year their clerkship numbers are higher than NYU. I mean, it at least gives one the impression that CC are definitely better objectively, although you wouldn't be wrong basically no weight to those small differences in making the ultimate decision.

I mean, its like a five-game series in basketball where the lakers beat the celtics 107-106 in overtime each and every game. I mean, there has to be some point where you just hand it to the Lakers.

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im_blue
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Re: Chicago v. NYU v. Penn

Postby im_blue » Fri Feb 26, 2010 3:38 am

The Brainalist wrote:I'm not saying that it is so much that other subjective preferences shouldn't be more determinative, but it does seem significant that the differences, be they only marginal, are consistent year to year. Every year CC's NLJ250 are higher than NYU. Every Year their reputation scores are higher than NYU. Every year their clerkship numbers are higher than NYU. I mean, it at least gives one the impression that CC are definitely better objectively, although you wouldn't be wrong basically no weight to those small differences in making the ultimate decision.

I mean, its like a five-game series in basketball where the lakers beat the celtics 107-106 in overtime each and every game. I mean, there has to be some point where you just hand it to the Lakers.

+1, except it'll be CLE over LAL in 6. 8)

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Reedie
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Re: Chicago v. NYU v. Penn

Postby Reedie » Fri Feb 26, 2010 3:49 am

The Brainalist wrote:I'm not saying that it is so much that other subjective preferences shouldn't be more determinative, but it does seem significant that the differences, be they only marginal, are consistent year to year. Every year CC's NLJ250 are higher than NYU. Every Year their reputation scores are higher than NYU. Every year their clerkship numbers are higher than NYU. I mean, it at least gives one the impression that CC are definitely better objectively, although you wouldn't be wrong basically no weight to those small differences in making the ultimate decision.

I mean, its like a five-game series in basketball where the lakers beat the celtics 107-106 in overtime each and every game. I mean, there has to be some point where you just hand it to the Lakers.


That analogy is flawed unless we judge the game by statistical analys with a margin of error greater than the point difference. How many years are you talking about here?

Consider Leiter's numbers:

The sample size is just FIFTEEN firms. Fifteen firms that were not selected randomly. Of Chicago's 265 elite firm placements 170 came from just 3 firms. If one of those three had happened to not bother to make their attorney list open to search in the way Leiter required, Chicago's placement would drop to WAY below NYU.

And none of this--again--is factoring in self-selection or any of the other persistent factors that would cloud the data EVEN IF it were perfect. And the data is far from perfect, or even very good.

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GeePee
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Re: Chicago v. NYU v. Penn

Postby GeePee » Fri Feb 26, 2010 4:01 am

hiro86 wrote:I'll do this one-by-one:
This one says that 3% more of the class went to NLJ250 firms from UChi than from NYU last year. Keeping in mind that 3% of Chicago's class is 6 people, and keeping in mind that NLJ250 firms don't account for boutiques, in-house jobs, or consulting jobs, are you really arguing that six people in one year proves one school is better than the other?
Well, dating back to 2005 (not sure about 2006), Chicago has outplaced NYU at NLJ250 firms.

This one shows 83 NYU grads hired by V100 firms compared to 34 UChi grads. Even if you account for class size, that's a blowout. Oh, but you made up a number to multiply it by to make it look better for your argument, so nevermind.
NYU definitely has 3-4x as many students targeting NYC, it's not really debatable. There are many ways to look at the 2007 data. I just noticed that Chicago and NYU have the same number of people going to Watchell (which should not be the case if the schools place equally as well).

This one's just crazy. First, it's from 2003. Then, the methodology is to include only 3 firms from each region, to intentionally bias it against NYC. Any list that assumes more top school grads wanted to work in the 3rd largest firm in Seattle than wanted to work in the 4th largest firm in NYC hardly seems worth spending too much time on.
Like I said, not all of these links are perfect, but I posted all of the placement studies that I know of.

This one shows that the ratio of NYU to UChi grads at the listed firms is .085. Setting aside that it is a survey of 15 of the V24 firms that had searchable websites, and thus as far from scientific as could be, that's something. BUT, I repeated the same methods, only including firms inside the V10 with searchable sites with last years data and the ratio is 1.275 (a blowout for NYU again). I think if you tell me what school you want to look good, I can manipulate this stupid and unscientific method to get you the result you want. Given that Leiter has always liked UChi, I'm not surprised he found a cutoff that favored that school.
V10 obviously favors NYC schools. So, going beyond V10 firms will generally cut down on the pro-NYC bias. I see nothing wrong with that.

This one says in 2006 there were 274 NYU grads and 137 UChi grads hired by the V100. If you account for class size, that makes Uchi look a little better (61% v. 74%). Those numbers are really good for both schools, but admittedly better for UChi if you believe in controlling for class size (I'm not convinced that's the best way, but I don't want to argue it, so get the win here).

Look, the bottom line is that both are good schools, and both will provide plenty good opportunities. But the idea that one is so clearly better than the other is an unsupported and unprovable opinion.
Both are very good schools, I merely argued that Columbia and Chicago place a little better in big law than NYU. I have responded to your request for some evidence and my position is clearly supported.

If you really think those studies "clearly supported" your position, then I don't even know what to say. I don't have the exact numbers to crunch, but I'd say that maybe 2/5 of those studies yield statistically significant results, and 1 favors NYU and the other Chicago. Saying that there's a notable difference between the placement opportunities of the two schools borders on fabrication.

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The Brainalist
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Re: Chicago v. NYU v. Penn

Postby The Brainalist » Fri Feb 26, 2010 2:27 pm

Reedie wrote:
The Brainalist wrote:I'm not saying that it is so much that other subjective preferences shouldn't be more determinative, but it does seem significant that the differences, be they only marginal, are consistent year to year. Every year CC's NLJ250 are higher than NYU. Every Year their reputation scores are higher than NYU. Every year their clerkship numbers are higher than NYU. I mean, it at least gives one the impression that CC are definitely better objectively, although you wouldn't be wrong basically no weight to those small differences in making the ultimate decision.

I mean, its like a five-game series in basketball where the lakers beat the celtics 107-106 in overtime each and every game. I mean, there has to be some point where you just hand it to the Lakers.


That analogy is flawed unless we judge the game by statistical analys with a margin of error greater than the point difference. How many years are you talking about here?

Consider Leiter's numbers:

The sample size is just FIFTEEN firms. Fifteen firms that were not selected randomly. Of Chicago's 265 elite firm placements 170 came from just 3 firms. If one of those three had happened to not bother to make their attorney list open to search in the way Leiter required, Chicago's placement would drop to WAY below NYU.

And none of this--again--is factoring in self-selection or any of the other persistent factors that would cloud the data EVEN IF it were perfect. And the data is far from perfect, or even very good.


Actually it is just an illustration, landing jobs is not anything at all like putting an orange ball into a ten-foot tall basket, unless that is part of your interview process.

I'm not talking about leiter's 15 firms thing. I don't find that very compelling either. Just the broader ones, the NLJ250, district and appellate and supreme court clerkships. Those aren't sampling data with confidence levels and standard deviations etc., it is the total numbers of all students. Just a tally, so it is just seeing a basketball game play out, over and over again, with all the points counted at the end. The question is, after how many wins against the same team, even by one point, are you comfortable saying that it isn't just luck of the draw? Statistically speaking, sure, it is never going to be 100%, but if that last 2 points is a 50% shot every time and both teams are equal, the odds of the lakers winning ten times out of ten is incredibly low. The more credible explanation is that the lakers are just better at making that last shot, and it isn't just luck of the draw. On a year to year thing, CC have done the same thing in the NLJ250 and clerking. I think there are 3 NLJ250 charts out there I know of, 2005, 2008, and 2009. CC are at the top of all of them, northwestern at least 2. That may not be enough for you to give them credit for it yet, but if they repeat this 2 or 3 more times, that 6, 10, or 20 students that Chicago places to put them over the top every year aren't just luck. Again, though, even though Chicago and columbia consistently come out on top and deserve credit for it, that doesn't make enough of a difference to me where NYU shouldn't be considered right along side CC. It isn't likely to make a difference to my personal job outcome (except maybe for clerking or teaching). The reason my "analogy" would fail is that NYU and Chicago aren't actually in a game against each other. When the Lakers play the Celtics, one of them is declared winner and the other a loser, and maybe there is an award for winning and you get nothing for losing. The celtics may as well have had 2 points instead of 106. With Columbia and NYU, if Columbia places 53% in NLJ and NYU places 51%, they both win and get to keep the spoils, just Columbia wins 2% more. You see, basketball is nothing like law schools. It is an illustration not an analogy.

The USNWR reputation scores are sampling, but if memory serves the academic one gets more responses than the legal one, and maybe the had to average it over three years or something. I presume they are pretty accurate. Someone else can probably speak better to the validity of that.

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Re: Chicago v. NYU v. Penn

Postby Reedie » Fri Feb 26, 2010 4:10 pm

The Brainalist wrote:Actually it is just an illustration, landing jobs is not anything at all like putting an orange ball into a ten-foot tall basket, unless that is part of your interview process.


Actually, it isn't just an illustration. An illustration that is not also an analogy would have to describe a circumstance that "illustrates" a general point without making reference to an alternate subject (such as basketball) which--for the purpose of discussion--is supposed to be analogous to the case at hand. As you note, basketball isn't a very analogy for comparing job placement stats.

I'm not talking about leiter's 15 firms thing. I don't find that very compelling either. Just the broader ones, the NLJ250, district and appellate and supreme court clerkships.


The NLJ250 isn't even trying to do the same thing as the Leiter study, and is simply an entirely different topic. The Leiter numbers attempted to measure how law schools place at the most elite firms. Listing off the entire NLJ250 is more like just asking how much of the class chose to work at big law firms, both those that are especially prestigious and those that are not. I have trouble really understanding how useful that info would be for trying to compare relatively similar institutions.

Supreme court clerkship numbers aren't very good because there are so few clerks and so many judges hire from institutions they favor without worrying too much about wading through all the qualified applicants. Chicago's supreme court placement is impressive, but it would probably be a mistake to read too much into schools that don't put a lot of clerks on the supreme court despite their reputation otherwise.

Now appellate clerkships are something Chicago really does shine in, and the institution has a right to be proud of that. I tend to think of this as related to their academic placement which has also been exceptional, and I think legitimately better than their peer institutions. If you want to be a legal academic Chicago is an outstanding place to go, probably better than Columbia or NYU and possibly better than Stanford.

Where Chicago doesn't shine currently is in government work and public interest. The new dean they hired from UCLA is apparently making this a priority, and I expect them to improve quite a bit. I don't fully understand why they don't seem to do as well in that, but I suspect part of their problem is a limited LRAP and perhaps they could also use just a bit of encouragement to their students who are interested in pursuing that path.

You see, basketball is nothing like law schools. It is an illustration not an analogy.


If I drew a picture of a basketball team and saw "this is an illustration of a law faculty" I wonder what you would make of that?

The USNWR reputation scores are sampling, but if memory serves the academic one gets more responses than the legal one, and maybe the had to average it over three years or something.


The academic one is probably more reliable than the other, but if I remember the data either a whole bunch of SCCN are tied or the differences between them are VERY small.

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Re: Chicago v. NYU v. Penn

Postby hiro86 » Fri Feb 26, 2010 4:29 pm

Renzo wrote:
hiro86 wrote:NYU definitely has 3-4x as many students targeting NYC, it's not really debatable.

Prove this and I'll get a UChi tattoo on any body location of your choosing.


As for your more general point, you were not "merely saying" that UChi and CLS do "a little better" in biglaw placement; you said "these small differences become huge." It's this argument I'm disagreeing with, such small differences are never huge.

From all of your sources, it looks like one school or the other is better depending on how you define "biglaw"--if it's the V100, NYU wins, if its the NLJ250, Uchi wins. But neither of these are anything more than a rough proxy for job placement, so obsessing over the 3% of a class that went to NLJ250 firms, or the 50 extra alums in the V100 is just a waste of time, and is NOT more important to your future career than geographic proximity to where you want to work, happiness with your school, networking opportunities, interviewing opportunities, etc.

Honestly, I just hate trolls that constantly push their schools. I never said that the minor difference was the most important factor.

However, I hope you are ready to get a tattoo. Here are my calculations:
NYU has 450 students in a class, 66% of those end up in NYC, so 450*.66= roughly 297 NYU students target NYC.
Chicago has 190 students in a class, 19% of those end up in NYC, so 190*.19= roughly 36 Chicago students target NYC.

297/36= 8.25x as many NYU students target NYC.

Now, even if you say some Chicago students want NYC and can't get it, or whatever other factors you throw in... there's no way to dispute that at least 3-4x as many NYU students target NYC. Instead of you getting a tattoo, I would agree to a one year ban on you trolling for NYU.
NYU links:
--LinkRemoved--
http://www.law.nyu.edu/careerservices/e ... /index.htm

Chicago links:
--LinkRemoved--
http://www.law.uchicago.edu/prospective/careerstats

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Re: Chicago v. NYU v. Penn

Postby hiro86 » Fri Feb 26, 2010 4:32 pm

GeePee wrote:
hiro86 wrote:I'll do this one-by-one:
This one says that 3% more of the class went to NLJ250 firms from UChi than from NYU last year. Keeping in mind that 3% of Chicago's class is 6 people, and keeping in mind that NLJ250 firms don't account for boutiques, in-house jobs, or consulting jobs, are you really arguing that six people in one year proves one school is better than the other?
Well, dating back to 2005 (not sure about 2006), Chicago has outplaced NYU at NLJ250 firms.

This one shows 83 NYU grads hired by V100 firms compared to 34 UChi grads. Even if you account for class size, that's a blowout. Oh, but you made up a number to multiply it by to make it look better for your argument, so nevermind.
NYU definitely has 3-4x as many students targeting NYC, it's not really debatable. There are many ways to look at the 2007 data. I just noticed that Chicago and NYU have the same number of people going to Watchell (which should not be the case if the schools place equally as well).

This one's just crazy. First, it's from 2003. Then, the methodology is to include only 3 firms from each region, to intentionally bias it against NYC. Any list that assumes more top school grads wanted to work in the 3rd largest firm in Seattle than wanted to work in the 4th largest firm in NYC hardly seems worth spending too much time on.
Like I said, not all of these links are perfect, but I posted all of the placement studies that I know of.

This one shows that the ratio of NYU to UChi grads at the listed firms is .085. Setting aside that it is a survey of 15 of the V24 firms that had searchable websites, and thus as far from scientific as could be, that's something. BUT, I repeated the same methods, only including firms inside the V10 with searchable sites with last years data and the ratio is 1.275 (a blowout for NYU again). I think if you tell me what school you want to look good, I can manipulate this stupid and unscientific method to get you the result you want. Given that Leiter has always liked UChi, I'm not surprised he found a cutoff that favored that school.
V10 obviously favors NYC schools. So, going beyond V10 firms will generally cut down on the pro-NYC bias. I see nothing wrong with that.

This one says in 2006 there were 274 NYU grads and 137 UChi grads hired by the V100. If you account for class size, that makes Uchi look a little better (61% v. 74%). Those numbers are really good for both schools, but admittedly better for UChi if you believe in controlling for class size (I'm not convinced that's the best way, but I don't want to argue it, so get the win here).

Look, the bottom line is that both are good schools, and both will provide plenty good opportunities. But the idea that one is so clearly better than the other is an unsupported and unprovable opinion.
Both are very good schools, I merely argued that Columbia and Chicago place a little better in big law than NYU. I have responded to your request for some evidence and my position is clearly supported.

If you really think those studies "clearly supported" your position, then I don't even know what to say. I don't have the exact numbers to crunch, but I'd say that maybe 2/5 of those studies yield statistically significant results, and 1 favors NYU and the other Chicago. Saying that there's a notable difference between the placement opportunities of the two schools borders on fabrication.

Supported, meaning I have evidence to back my claims. Not that my position is 100% proven. I am not a scientist/statistician so I may have used an incorrect term...

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Re: Chicago v. NYU v. Penn

Postby CG614 » Fri Feb 26, 2010 4:49 pm

hiro86 wrote:Honestly, I just hate trolls that constantly push their schools. I never said that the minor difference was the most important factor.

However, I hope you are ready to get a tattoo. Here are my calculations:
NYU has 450 students in a class, 66% of those end up in NYC, so 450*.66= roughly 297 NYU students target NYC.
Chicago has 190 students in a class, 19% of those end up in NYC, so 190*.19= roughly 36 Chicago students target NYC.

297/36= 8.25x as many NYU students target NYC.

Now, even if you say some Chicago students want NYC and can't get it, or whatever other factors you throw in... there's no way to dispute that at least 3-4x as many NYU students target NYC.



I shouldn't get involved, because there are problems with the statistical evidence provided on both sides of the argument. But to use an equation like this to prove that 8x as many students at NYU target NYC jobs vs students at Chicago is ridiculous. This number literally means nothing. You can't prove intent by the number of students hired. Now, if you can get information on the specific jobs the graduates applied for from each school, then you may have something. But you can easily look at these numbers you provided and say that NYU is better at Big Law because they have access to more big law firms in NY. And those options increase their chances to be hired. Since only 19% of CHI were hired from NY firms, they do not have such access. I do not support that statement, but wanted to provide an example of how you can make the numbers tell whatever story you want them to tell. Either way, both school are incredible and this thread should be locked.




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