Chicago v. NYU v. Penn

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Tangerine Gleam
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Re: Chicago v. NYU v. Penn

Postby Tangerine Gleam » Fri Feb 19, 2010 2:26 pm

tintin wrote:
im_blue wrote:Sounds like you'd fit in better at NYU.


yeah, in some ways i agree, as it does seem very liberal, etc. but the COL in NY seems ridiculous, and i am not a huge fan of giant crowded cities. also, i have no interest in working in NYC so paying so much $$ to live there for 3 years seems kind of dumb to me.


Tintin, where are you interested in working after school? Do you want to go back to Cali? Philly is indeed pretty sweet, affordable, much more manageable/down-to-earth than NYC, and yes -- thriving gay community. I lived there for a year and loved it. That said, Penn also has a mega-NYC job focus.

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glowhard
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Re: Chicago v. NYU v. Penn

Postby glowhard » Fri Feb 19, 2010 3:27 pm

tintin wrote:looks like i will be choosing between these three as well. i don't want to go into biglaw, but i don't think i will have much debt upon graduation either. should i just go with whatever feels best after visiting? i am interested in academia so chicago seems to have that edge, but it's also freezing there, and their grading system seems horrible. i also feel like i've heard a lot about them being kinda uptight / conservative, and i'm a gay californian....


thoughts?


have you heard of park slope, brooklyn? (you're female- right?) 20-30 minute subway ride to NYU, and probably more similar to NorCal than any other part of NYC. not ridiculously expensive either (probably comparable to Philly). I mean, Park Slope might not be your thing, but there are definitely parts of NYC that aren't expensive and/or over-crowded. their OUTlaw is amazing, and the student body has a reputation for being a little more relaxed. So yes, obviously go to each and see which ones strikes your fancy... but I wouldn't write off New York too quickly, 'cause it sounds like NYU might be a good fit.

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tintin
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Re: Chicago v. NYU v. Penn

Postby tintin » Fri Feb 19, 2010 8:50 pm

thanks for all the input guys thus far guys! yes, i have more of a passing interest in academia. while chicago does seem to have the advantage as far as placing people in academia they don't realllly seem to have like more than one (i think) prof who works in the area i'm interested in. penn on the other hand has really impressed me with their lgbt stuff so far, and philly seems like a cooler place to live than NYC to me. that said, i haven't visited any of these places yet.

berkeley is my #1 choice (cuz i want to live on the west coast) but they have waitlisted me, damn them.

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Reedie
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Re: Chicago v. NYU v. Penn

Postby Reedie » Sat Feb 20, 2010 7:29 pm

I talked to someone on the financial aid committee at Chicago today and she assured me that a substantial expansion of their LRAP is in the works.

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badfish
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Re: Chicago v. NYU v. Penn

Postby badfish » Sat Feb 20, 2010 7:43 pm

tintin wrote:thanks for all the input guys thus far guys! yes, i have more of a passing interest in academia. while chicago does seem to have the advantage as far as placing people in academia they don't realllly seem to have like more than one (i think) prof who works in the area i'm interested in. penn on the other hand has really impressed me with their lgbt stuff so far, and philly seems like a cooler place to live than NYC to me. that said, i haven't visited any of these places yet.

berkeley is my #1 choice (cuz i want to live on the west coast) but they have waitlisted me, damn them.


visit philly before you make your decision dude. that city is dying.

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Core
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Re: Chicago v. NYU v. Penn

Postby Core » Sat Feb 20, 2010 8:04 pm

For NYC Biglaw, is Chicago's placement comparable to NYU's and Penn's?
I am in a somewhat similar situation to the OP, but I believe NYU is ultimately going to reject me, so I'm leaning toward Chicago.

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Reedie
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Re: Chicago v. NYU v. Penn

Postby Reedie » Sat Feb 20, 2010 8:09 pm

Core wrote:For NYC Biglaw, is Chicago's placement comparable to NYU's and Penn's?
I am in a somewhat similar situation to the OP, but I believe NYU is ultimately going to reject me, so I'm leaning toward Chicago.


http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2008job_biglaw.shtml

I'd say Chicago probably places better than Penn. Vs NYU my guess would be that students who do well at Chicago probably have roughly similar chances as NYU students, but that students who do less well probably have a better shot in their respective home cities.

Renzo
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Re: Chicago v. NYU v. Penn

Postby Renzo » Sat Feb 20, 2010 8:57 pm

badfish wrote:
tintin wrote:thanks for all the input guys thus far guys! yes, i have more of a passing interest in academia. while chicago does seem to have the advantage as far as placing people in academia they don't realllly seem to have like more than one (i think) prof who works in the area i'm interested in. penn on the other hand has really impressed me with their lgbt stuff so far, and philly seems like a cooler place to live than NYC to me. that said, i haven't visited any of these places yet.

berkeley is my #1 choice (cuz i want to live on the west coast) but they have waitlisted me, damn them.


visit philly before you make your decision dude. that city is dying.

No, it's been dead for a long, long time. There was a brief period where it looked like it might come back to life, but it didn't.

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Core
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Re: Chicago v. NYU v. Penn

Postby Core » Sat Feb 20, 2010 8:58 pm

Renzo wrote:
badfish wrote:
tintin wrote:thanks for all the input guys thus far guys! yes, i have more of a passing interest in academia. while chicago does seem to have the advantage as far as placing people in academia they don't realllly seem to have like more than one (i think) prof who works in the area i'm interested in. penn on the other hand has really impressed me with their lgbt stuff so far, and philly seems like a cooler place to live than NYC to me. that said, i haven't visited any of these places yet.

berkeley is my #1 choice (cuz i want to live on the west coast) but they have waitlisted me, damn them.


visit philly before you make your decision dude. that city is dying.

No, it's been dead for a long, long time. There was a brief period where it looked like it might come back to life, but it didn't.

Is Hyde Park really any better? I've heard so many horror stories about it on these boards.

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Core
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Re: Chicago v. NYU v. Penn

Postby Core » Sat Feb 20, 2010 8:59 pm

Reedie wrote:
Core wrote:For NYC Biglaw, is Chicago's placement comparable to NYU's and Penn's?
I am in a somewhat similar situation to the OP, but I believe NYU is ultimately going to reject me, so I'm leaning toward Chicago.


http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2008job_biglaw.shtml

I'd say Chicago probably places better than Penn. Vs NYU my guess would be that students who do well at Chicago probably have roughly similar chances as NYU students, but that students who do less well probably have a better shot in their respective home cities.

Thanks for the insight. However, I am hesitant to draw inferences from that 2008 study by Leiter, whose bias is obvious.

Renzo
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Re: Chicago v. NYU v. Penn

Postby Renzo » Sat Feb 20, 2010 9:05 pm

Core wrote:Is Hyde Park really any better? I've heard so many horror stories about it on these boards.

Hyde Park is shady, but Chicago as a whole is pretty cool. Bone-breaking cold, but pretty cool.

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Rand M.
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Re: Chicago v. NYU v. Penn

Postby Rand M. » Sat Feb 20, 2010 11:34 pm

Core wrote:
Reedie wrote:
Core wrote:For NYC Biglaw, is Chicago's placement comparable to NYU's and Penn's?
I am in a somewhat similar situation to the OP, but I believe NYU is ultimately going to reject me, so I'm leaning toward Chicago.


http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2008job_biglaw.shtml

I'd say Chicago probably places better than Penn. Vs NYU my guess would be that students who do well at Chicago probably have roughly similar chances as NYU students, but that students who do less well probably have a better shot in their respective home cities.

Thanks for the insight. However, I am hesitant to draw inferences from that 2008 study by Leiter, whose bias is obvious.


Not to quibble about biases, but he was at Texas through 2008. He has even noted the fact that Chicago has declined in his rankings since he has become affiliated with the school. I don't know how a bias could affect such a ranking that seems largely based on pretty straightforward methods.

miamiman
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Re: Chicago v. NYU v. Penn

Postby miamiman » Sat Feb 20, 2010 11:45 pm

Not to bite the hand that will likely feed (uofc 2013 in all probability), but I truly think chicago garners far too much cheerleading on tls

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Reedie
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Re: Chicago v. NYU v. Penn

Postby Reedie » Sun Feb 21, 2010 12:51 am

Core wrote:
Reedie wrote:
Core wrote:For NYC Biglaw, is Chicago's placement comparable to NYU's and Penn's?
I am in a somewhat similar situation to the OP, but I believe NYU is ultimately going to reject me, so I'm leaning toward Chicago.


http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2008job_biglaw.shtml

I'd say Chicago probably places better than Penn. Vs NYU my guess would be that students who do well at Chicago probably have roughly similar chances as NYU students, but that students who do less well probably have a better shot in their respective home cities.

Thanks for the insight. However, I am hesitant to draw inferences from that 2008 study by Leiter, whose bias is obvious.


He gives you the raw data and the sources of info. I really don't see the problem. Now--given the sample size--I'm sure there is a substantial margin of error, but I really don't see any reason to believe he is cherry picking or doing anything untoward to get a particular result. Remember as an academic his personal reputation for scholarly integrity is vastly more important than Chicago's reputation for biglaw placement.

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Core
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Re: Chicago v. NYU v. Penn

Postby Core » Sun Feb 21, 2010 12:57 am

miamiman wrote:Not to bite the hand that will likely feed (uofc 2013 in all probability), but I truly think chicago garners far too much cheerleading on tls

Why do you think that?

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Core
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Re: Chicago v. NYU v. Penn

Postby Core » Sun Feb 21, 2010 12:58 am

Rand M. wrote:
Core wrote:
Reedie wrote:
Core wrote:For NYC Biglaw, is Chicago's placement comparable to NYU's and Penn's?
I am in a somewhat similar situation to the OP, but I believe NYU is ultimately going to reject me, so I'm leaning toward Chicago.


http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2008job_biglaw.shtml

I'd say Chicago probably places better than Penn. Vs NYU my guess would be that students who do well at Chicago probably have roughly similar chances as NYU students, but that students who do less well probably have a better shot in their respective home cities.

Thanks for the insight. However, I am hesitant to draw inferences from that 2008 study by Leiter, whose bias is obvious.


Not to quibble about biases, but he was at Texas through 2008. He has even noted the fact that Chicago has declined in his rankings since he has become affiliated with the school. I don't know how a bias could affect such a ranking that seems largely based on pretty straightforward methods.

Didn't know that. Looks like you're probably right.

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Reedie
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Re: Chicago v. NYU v. Penn

Postby Reedie » Sun Feb 21, 2010 1:01 am

miamiman wrote:Not to bite the hand that will likely feed (uofc 2013 in all probability), but I truly think chicago garners far too much cheerleading on tls


I think the forums here are pretty clear about the problems and benefits of chicago. The downside to chicago is that it is an intense place in a bad part of town in a cold windy city with a rather poor LRAP compared to its peers (at least right now). The upside is that it's highly respected--partly because of that same small intense atmosphere--and places very well in clerkships and at prestigious law firms. It's certainly competitive with NYU and Columbia and probably a hair or two better than Penn. Is any of that wrong?

The main mistake I see people make is to take those small differences too seriously. If you go visit Penn and you love it, find people you want to work with, and are less thrilled by what you experience at Chicago it probably doesn't make much sense to ditch Penn because of Chicago's slightly better reputation.

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Nom Sawyer
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Re: Chicago v. NYU v. Penn

Postby Nom Sawyer » Sun Feb 21, 2010 1:02 am

miamiman wrote:Not to bite the hand that will likely feed (uofc 2013 in all probability), but I truly think chicago garners far too much cheerleading on tls


Somebody dig up that xoxo thread on Chicago...

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badfish
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Re: Chicago v. NYU v. Penn

Postby badfish » Sun Feb 21, 2010 1:05 am

imo it is the prevalence of nyu bashing on TLS which makes the (deserved) praise for chicago seem so extreme.

in reality the differences b/w the schools in the CCN tier are marginal.

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Core
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Re: Chicago v. NYU v. Penn

Postby Core » Sun Feb 21, 2010 1:14 am

Reedie wrote:
miamiman wrote:Not to bite the hand that will likely feed (uofc 2013 in all probability), but I truly think chicago garners far too much cheerleading on tls


I think the forums here are pretty clear about the problems and benefits of chicago. The downside to chicago is that it is an intense place in a bad part of town in a cold windy city with a rather poor LRAP compared to its peers (at least right now). The upside is that it's highly respected--partly because of that same small intense atmosphere--and places very well in clerkships and at prestigious law firms. It's certainly competitive with NYU and Columbia and probably a hair or two better than Penn. Is any of that wrong?

The main mistake I see people make is to take those small differences too seriously. If you go visit Penn and you love it, find people you want to work with, and are less thrilled by what you experience at Chicago it probably doesn't make much sense to ditch Penn because of Chicago's slightly better reputation.

Any Chicago students/alum care to comment on how true this comment is, relative to its peer schools?

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badfish
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Re: Chicago v. NYU v. Penn

Postby badfish » Sun Feb 21, 2010 1:16 am

The UG is more intense than the law school. Chicago has a lot of law nerds, but having spoken to my friends who go there the atmosphere is just about as collegial as you would expect from any top law school.

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Reedie
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Re: Chicago v. NYU v. Penn

Postby Reedie » Sun Feb 21, 2010 1:39 am

badfish wrote:The UG is more intense than the law school. Chicago has a lot of law nerds, but having spoken to my friends who go there the atmosphere is just about as collegial as you would expect from any top law school.


By intense I didn't mean unfriendly. I meant an atmosphere that encourages people to be a bit more focused on studies and little less focused on other parts of life. To describe it negatively "less well rounded" and with a positive spin "more dedicated/harder working." I'll gladly defer to people who have more experience.

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tintin
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Re: Chicago v. NYU v. Penn

Postby tintin » Sun Feb 21, 2010 1:44 am

Reedie wrote:
badfish wrote:The UG is more intense than the law school. Chicago has a lot of law nerds, but having spoken to my friends who go there the atmosphere is just about as collegial as you would expect from any top law school.


By intense I didn't mean unfriendly. I meant an atmosphere that encourages people to be a bit more focused on studies and little less focused on other parts of life. To describe it negatively "less well rounded" and with a positive spin "more dedicated/harder working." I'll gladly defer to people who have more experience.


would like to hear more opinions about this view of chicago too.

hiro86
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Re: Chicago v. NYU v. Penn

Postby hiro86 » Sun Feb 21, 2010 3:09 am

Core wrote:
Reedie wrote:
miamiman wrote:Not to bite the hand that will likely feed (uofc 2013 in all probability), but I truly think chicago garners far too much cheerleading on tls


I think the forums here are pretty clear about the problems and benefits of chicago. The downside to chicago is that it is an intense place in a bad part of town in a cold windy city with a rather poor LRAP compared to its peers (at least right now). The upside is that it's highly respected--partly because of that same small intense atmosphere--and places very well in clerkships and at prestigious law firms. It's certainly competitive with NYU and Columbia and probably a hair or two better than Penn. Is any of that wrong?

The main mistake I see people make is to take those small differences too seriously. If you go visit Penn and you love it, find people you want to work with, and are less thrilled by what you experience at Chicago it probably doesn't make much sense to ditch Penn because of Chicago's slightly better reputation.

Any Chicago students/alum care to comment on how true this comment is, relative to its peer schools?

This has been addressed many times on these forums by Chicago students. The answer is always that it is no different than almost any other top school. The students take studying seriously, but are not overly cutthroat.

Also, I think Chicago deserves the praise it gets. At least in terms of job placement. Chicago seems to equal Columbia in terms of big law placement (can't go straight off the percentages). The same cannot be said for NYU, Penn, Berkeley, etc. I agree that much of the T14 is similar in terms of big law placement, but these small differences become huge if you end up being in the X% of the class that gets big law at Columbia, that would may not get it at Penn. The difference in payoffs between getting and not getting big law is simply too large to ignore even small differences in placement.

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Re: Chicago v. NYU v. Penn

Postby toaster2 » Sun Feb 21, 2010 3:19 am

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Last edited by toaster2 on Tue May 25, 2010 1:45 am, edited 1 time in total.




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