Chicago v. NYU v. Penn

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thelawguy777
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Re: Chicago v. NYU v. Penn

Postby thelawguy777 » Wed Feb 17, 2010 2:35 am

NYU is definitely best for the LRAP, both of these schools and nationwide. After working 3 years in PI, the loans are forgiven, and then they continue to be forgiven annually from then on.



I don't understand... After the loans are "forgiven" does that not mean you don't have to pay them from there on out? Or does it simply mean your payments are forgiven on a yearly basis?


-----

And by the way, I say just go to the school that looks the best for you. If you are anything like me you will perform much much better when you are happy!

fortissimo
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Re: Chicago v. NYU v. Penn

Postby fortissimo » Wed Feb 17, 2010 2:47 am

thelawguy777 wrote:
NYU is definitely best for the LRAP, both of these schools and nationwide. After working 3 years in PI, the loans are forgiven, and then they continue to be forgiven annually from then on.

I don't understand... After the loans are "forgiven" does that not mean you don't have to pay them from there on out? Or does it simply mean your payments are forgiven on a yearly basis?


I believe you borrow money from NYU annually to pay off your federal loans. After the first 3 years -- depending on the fact that you still qualify since you update your financial circumstances every time there is a change -- your loans that you acquired in that 3-year-period from NYU are forgiven. After those 3 years, every year you keep borrowing new loans and they are "forgiven" on an annual basis if your circumstances have not changed so that you can no longer use LRAP. (If you get married, they average your spouse's and your income, and if the average income is over a certain amount, you are disqualified. If you acquire assets that put you over a threshold, you are disqualified. If you leave your job and switch to another one that doesn't qualify, you can no longer use LRAP.) If you are disqualified, you have to pay NYU back for the existing loans you have taken from the school with interest and you have to pay back the remaining federal loans on your own. When you utilize LRAP from any school, I believe you technically borrow loans from the school to pay back your federal loans, and the loans are forgiven later on, probably annually, if certain requirements are satisfied.

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Dignan
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Re: Chicago v. NYU v. Penn

Postby Dignan » Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:07 am

scribelaw wrote:
maggiebre wrote:
radgrad wrote:Do you think a scholly from Penn would trump NYU and/or Chicago?


It really is about personal preference at a certain point. I'm a person who in all likelihood is going to take $$ over CCN... I really want to limit my debt and I'm not sure I want to do Biglaw for too long. For me Penn (or an "equivalent") at a reduced price is a much better option. But if someone is set on NYC biglaw, taking scholarship $$ might not be worth it.


Another consideration is the fact that NYU (and Columbia) have far superior LRAP programs to Chicago or Penn (and the rest of the T10).

I agree that NYU and Columbia have superior LRAP programs to Chicago and Penn. But I'm not sure about your claim about the rest of the T10. From what I've read, NYU's and and Colubmia's LRAPs are not better, and in some cases are a little worse, than the LRAPs of Berkeley, Stanford, and Yale.

fortissimo
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Re: Chicago v. NYU v. Penn

Postby fortissimo » Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:08 am

Dignan wrote:
scribelaw wrote:
maggiebre wrote:
radgrad wrote:Do you think a scholly from Penn would trump NYU and/or Chicago?


It really is about personal preference at a certain point. I'm a person who in all likelihood is going to take $$ over CCN... I really want to limit my debt and I'm not sure I want to do Biglaw for too long. For me Penn (or an "equivalent") at a reduced price is a much better option. But if someone is set on NYC biglaw, taking scholarship $$ might not be worth it.


Another consideration is the fact that NYU (and Columbia) have far superior LRAP programs to Chicago or Penn (and the rest of the T10).

I agree that NYU and Columbia have superior LRAP programs to Chicago and Penn. But I'm not sure about your claim about the rest of the T10. From what I've read, NYU's and and Colubmia's LRAPs are not better, and in some cases are a little worse, than the LRAPs of Berkeley, Stanford, and Yale.


NYU's LRAP is better than Berkeley's, but worse than Stanford's.

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Dignan
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Re: Chicago v. NYU v. Penn

Postby Dignan » Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:19 am

fortissimo wrote:
Dignan wrote:
scribelaw wrote:
Another consideration is the fact that NYU (and Columbia) have far superior LRAP programs to Chicago or Penn (and the rest of the T10).

I agree that NYU and Columbia have superior LRAP programs to Chicago and Penn. But I'm not sure about your claim about the rest of the T10. From what I've read, NYU's and and Colubmia's LRAPs are not better, and in some cases are a little worse, than the LRAPs of Berkeley, Stanford, and Yale.


NYU's LRAP is better than Berkeley's, but worse than Stanford's.

I know that NYU's LRAP used to be a little better than Berkeley's, but I think that Berkeley's new LRAP (announced last month for the class of 2013) is better than NYU's. If I read it correctly, Berkeley will pay all loans for those with incomes of $65,000 or less in qualifying employment. $65K is almost $20K higher than NYU's cap. Now, there might be something I'm missing; perhaps the NYU program is more forgiving or permissive in some important respect. But based on a cursory reading, Berkeley's LRAP looks pretty sweet:

http://www.law.berkeley.edu/6190.htm

fortissimo
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Re: Chicago v. NYU v. Penn

Postby fortissimo » Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:59 am

Dignan wrote:
fortissimo wrote:
Dignan wrote:
scribelaw wrote:
Another consideration is the fact that NYU (and Columbia) have far superior LRAP programs to Chicago or Penn (and the rest of the T10).

I agree that NYU and Columbia have superior LRAP programs to Chicago and Penn. But I'm not sure about your claim about the rest of the T10. From what I've read, NYU's and and Colubmia's LRAPs are not better, and in some cases are a little worse, than the LRAPs of Berkeley, Stanford, and Yale.


NYU's LRAP is better than Berkeley's, but worse than Stanford's.

I know that NYU's LRAP used to be a little better than Berkeley's, but I think that Berkeley's new LRAP (announced last month for the class of 2013) is better than NYU's. If I read it correctly, Berkeley will pay all loans for those with incomes of $65,000 or less in qualifying employment. $65K is almost $20K higher than NYU's cap. Now, there might be something I'm missing; perhaps the NYU program is more forgiving or permissive in some important respect. But based on a cursory reading, Berkeley's LRAP looks pretty sweet:

http://www.law.berkeley.edu/6190.htm


I think you're recalling the old income base. NYU's income base for not paying anything at all is lower starting out, but it is increased periodically (I believe on the 4th and 7th years of qualification), meaning that the income base is increased for your class the longer you get out. http://www.law.nyu.edu/financialaid/lra ... /index.htm

Unfortunately, both schools only allow you to use LRAP for a maximum of 10 years. Both also unfortunately average your spouse's income with your income to figure out eligibility.

Both schools force you to start using LRAP within 6 months of your graduation date, BUT NYU's website says that you can defer the start date in case you are unemployed. Berkeley's site says that you "must" start using it within 6 months of graduation to be eligible.
Boalt wrote:Graduates seeking to participate in LRAP must begin participating in the program within three years after the end of their loan grace period, which normally is six months after graduation.

On the other hand, at NYU you can apply for a deferred start in case you don't have a job 6 months after graduation.
NYU wrote:Participants may request Qualified Program Deferrals, to a maximum of 24 months, subject to the approval of the Program Administrator. Qualified Program Deferral periods will extend a participant’s eligibility period as otherwise defined above.
I think this is especially important given the amount of deferrals people have been experiencing in the legal field and the fact that people may be unemployed at graduation and have to look for a job post-graduation. Also, in order to qualify for LRAP you must currently work for qualifying employment so if you don't have qualifying employment during your eligibility period (6 months after graduation), you might end up being completely disqualified from using Berkeley's LRAP.

In addition, Berkeley law reserves the right to reject you from participating in LRAP if they are short of funds.
Boalt wrote: 10. Limited Funds Contingency and Right to Modify

In the event that funding is not sufficient to fully fund all qualified applicants in the manner anticipated above, the law school will select LRAP recipients and determine award levels; available funds may be disbursed pro rata, or awards may be adjusted on an individual basis considering salary and total loan indebtedness.
This seems particularly worrisome in light of the UC budget problems and the fact that Berkeley Law still receives 30% of its funding from the state. (I realize the tuition increases are a way to reduce its reliance on the state government, but at this point Boalt still gets 30% of its funding from CA state government.)
Last edited by fortissimo on Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

starstruck393
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Re: Chicago v. NYU v. Penn

Postby starstruck393 » Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:03 am

fortissimo wrote:
In addition, Berkeley law reserves the right to reject you from participating in LRAP if they are short of funds.
Berkeley Law wrote: 10. Limited Funds Contingency and Right to Modify

In the event that funding is not sufficient to fully fund all qualified applicants in the manner anticipated above, the law school will select LRAP recipients and determine award levels; available funds may be disbursed pro rata, or awards may be adjusted on an individual basis considering salary and total loan indebtedness.
This seems particularly worrisome in light of the UC budget problems and the fact that Berkeley Law still receives 30% of its funding from the state. (I realize the tuition increases are a way to reduce its reliance on the state government, but at this point Boalt still gets 30% of its funding from the state government.)


I really wouldn't count on Berkeley's LRAP going forward. With Cali and the UCs budget problems, loan forgiveness for students that have already graduated is an awfully tempting thing to cut...

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scribelaw
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Re: Chicago v. NYU v. Penn

Postby scribelaw » Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:08 am

Just to clarify: When I said NYU's LRAP was better than the rest of the T10, I wasn't counting HYS.

With Chicago's LRAP, it only lasts for 7 years, and you cap out around $600-$700 a month in benefits. If you borrow anywhere close to full cost, that'll still leave something like $1,000-$1,200 a month in payments -- which isn't really doable on a PI salary.

NYU and Columbia's LRAP are almost identical and both are awesome.

Northwestern and Georgetown actually just came out with new LRAPs that are pretty good; they piggyback on the federal Income Based Repayment program. I'm still not sure if I trust those, though. Congress could change IBR.

Someone higher had a credited concern: If you get married, and your spouse earns a high salary, you're basically screwed under the NYU and Columbia LRAPs. Actually, that's the one virtue of Chicago's -- they don't count spousal income against you. So if you're married with a BigLaw SO, Chicago might be the way to go.

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Re: Chicago v. NYU v. Penn

Postby Cestjustemoi » Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:13 am

This may be a stupid question but is it possible for you to live with friends or family in Philly. This could seriously cut your expenses. Penn grads go to NYC anyway so why not just minimize your loans and then after graduation move to NYC. Col is ridic in NYC I know for a fact you can find more affordable living in Philly even if you don't live with family.

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Tangerine Gleam
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Re: Chicago v. NYU v. Penn

Postby Tangerine Gleam » Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:42 am

scribelaw wrote:Another consideration is the fact that NYU (and Columbia) have far superior LRAP programs to Chicago or Penn (and the rest of the T10).


Except for Boalt and Yale, arguably the two best LRAP's out there.

But yes NYU's LRAP definitely trumps Chicago's and Penn's.

EDIT: Didn't see the below, whoops! I still maintain that Boalt's LRAP rules, though.

scribelaw wrote:Just to clarify: When I said NYU's LRAP was better than the rest of the T10, I wasn't counting HYS.

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Tangerine Gleam
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Re: Chicago v. NYU v. Penn

Postby Tangerine Gleam » Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:47 am

YO, that info on Berkeley's website is outdated (bad move on their behalf).

When I was at the admissions office, the Assistant Director told me that one can start the LRAP any time within 10 years after graduating.

fortissimo
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Re: Chicago v. NYU v. Penn

Postby fortissimo » Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:04 pm

starstruck393 wrote:
fortissimo wrote:
In addition, Berkeley law reserves the right to reject you from participating in LRAP if they are short of funds.
Berkeley Law wrote: 10. Limited Funds Contingency and Right to Modify

In the event that funding is not sufficient to fully fund all qualified applicants in the manner anticipated above, the law school will select LRAP recipients and determine award levels; available funds may be disbursed pro rata, or awards may be adjusted on an individual basis considering salary and total loan indebtedness.
This seems particularly worrisome in light of the UC budget problems and the fact that Berkeley Law still receives 30% of its funding from the state. (I realize the tuition increases are a way to reduce its reliance on the state government, but at this point Boalt still gets 30% of its funding from the state government.)


I really wouldn't count on Berkeley's LRAP going forward. With Cali and the UCs budget problems, loan forgiveness for students that have already graduated is an awfully tempting thing to cut...


I like the caveat they added on their website.

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radgrad
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Re: Chicago v. NYU v. Penn

Postby radgrad » Wed Feb 17, 2010 2:12 pm

Here's a thread with a lot of LRAP discussion... they're all pretty complex, and they change from year to year, but I think this is a good rough guide.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=105847&hilit=LRAP

I agree that if the poster is planning on using the LRAP program, NYU is a great choice. Actually, I think it's a great choice either way... I know a lot of students at NYU, and they're all super super happy. It's a small sample size and all, but it seems like the quality of life at NYU is pretty high. Actually, I've heard similar things about Penn. Unfortunately, I haven't heard great anecdotes about Chicago. (yes yes heresay... but sometimes it's helpful).

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Re: Chicago v. NYU v. Penn

Postby postitnotes » Thu Feb 18, 2010 12:50 am

radgrad wrote:Actually, I've heard similar things about Penn. Unfortunately, I haven't heard great anecdotes about Chicago. (yes yes heresay... but sometimes it's helpful).


HERESY! j/k

My friend goes to Chicago and she seems pretty happy. I don't think the students are all that different there from the students at other schools. Chicago does have a bad grading scale though.

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Reedie
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Re: Chicago v. NYU v. Penn

Postby Reedie » Thu Feb 18, 2010 1:46 am

Yeah, Chicago needs to up their LRAP. I really like Chicago's reputation as an intense place (I like getting my ass kicked), but were I to be admitted that LRAP would be a major major downer for me.

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badfish
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Re: Chicago v. NYU v. Penn

Postby badfish » Thu Feb 18, 2010 1:52 am

If Chi had a better LRAP I might have gone there.

Renzo
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Re: Chicago v. NYU v. Penn

Postby Renzo » Thu Feb 18, 2010 2:32 am

badfish wrote:If Chi [strike]had a better LRAP[/strike]wasn't colder than the north pole I might have gone there.

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tintin
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Re: Chicago v. NYU v. Penn

Postby tintin » Fri Feb 19, 2010 1:55 am

looks like i will be choosing between these three as well. i don't want to go into biglaw, but i don't think i will have much debt upon graduation either. should i just go with whatever feels best after visiting? i am interested in academia so chicago seems to have that edge, but it's also freezing there, and their grading system seems horrible. i also feel like i've heard a lot about them being kinda uptight / conservative, and i'm a gay californian....


thoughts?

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AngryAvocado
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Re: Chicago v. NYU v. Penn

Postby AngryAvocado » Fri Feb 19, 2010 2:34 am

tintin wrote:looks like i will be choosing between these three as well. i don't want to go into biglaw, but i don't think i will have much debt upon graduation either. should i just go with whatever feels best after visiting? i am interested in academia so chicago seems to have that edge, but it's also freezing there, and their grading system seems horrible. i also feel like i've heard a lot about them being kinda uptight / conservative, and i'm a gay californian....


thoughts?


This part made me :lol:

It seems like a lot of people have at least a passing interest in a cushy academic gig, so I guess my advice would depend on whether it's a passing interest or a career path you're seriously contemplating. If it's the former, I'd say go with the superior LARP and more "liberal" culture of NYU. If it's the latter, go with Chicago.

Out of curiosity, would someone mind expounding on what's so bad about Chicago's grading scale?

hopefullaw27
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Re: Chicago v. NYU v. Penn

Postby hopefullaw27 » Fri Feb 19, 2010 2:36 am

from what I hear they grade on a numerical scale. That is to say, they don't have A's, B's, and the norms. Rather, they give for example a 170 or a 171 or whatever. This makes it easier to differentiate between students. I think this is it, but definitely someone correct me if i'm wrong...

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im_blue
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Re: Chicago v. NYU v. Penn

Postby im_blue » Fri Feb 19, 2010 4:00 am

tintin wrote:looks like i will be choosing between these three as well. i don't want to go into biglaw, but i don't think i will have much debt upon graduation either. should i just go with whatever feels best after visiting? i am interested in academia so chicago seems to have that edge, but it's also freezing there, and their grading system seems horrible. i also feel like i've heard a lot about them being kinda uptight / conservative, and i'm a gay californian....


thoughts?


Sounds like you'd fit in better at NYU.

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tintin
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Re: Chicago v. NYU v. Penn

Postby tintin » Fri Feb 19, 2010 11:39 am

im_blue wrote:
tintin wrote:looks like i will be choosing between these three as well. i don't want to go into biglaw, but i don't think i will have much debt upon graduation either. should i just go with whatever feels best after visiting? i am interested in academia so chicago seems to have that edge, but it's also freezing there, and their grading system seems horrible. i also feel like i've heard a lot about them being kinda uptight / conservative, and i'm a gay californian....


thoughts?


Sounds like you'd fit in better at NYU.


yeah, in some ways i agree, as it does seem very liberal, etc. but the COL in NY seems ridiculous, and i am not a huge fan of giant crowded cities. also, i have no interest in working in NYC so paying so much $$ to live there for 3 years seems kind of dumb to me.

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Re: Chicago v. NYU v. Penn

Postby Amelie » Fri Feb 19, 2010 11:44 am

tintin wrote:
im_blue wrote:
tintin wrote:looks like i will be choosing between these three as well. i don't want to go into biglaw, but i don't think i will have much debt upon graduation either. should i just go with whatever feels best after visiting? i am interested in academia so chicago seems to have that edge, but it's also freezing there, and their grading system seems horrible. i also feel like i've heard a lot about them being kinda uptight / conservative, and i'm a gay californian....


thoughts?


Sounds like you'd fit in better at NYU.


yeah, in some ways i agree, as it does seem very liberal, etc. but the COL in NY seems ridiculous, and i am not a huge fan of giant crowded cities. also, i have no interest in working in NYC so paying so much $$ to live there for 3 years seems kind of dumb to me.


Philly has a pretty thriving gay community and COL isn't bad at all. Penn also seems much more laid back compared to Chicago. But to be fair, I think the conservatives at Chicago are more of the fiscally conservative libertarian type than the religious right crazies.

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Rand M.
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Re: Chicago v. NYU v. Penn

Postby Rand M. » Fri Feb 19, 2010 11:47 am

tintin wrote:yeah, in some ways i agree, as it does seem very liberal, etc. but the COL in NY seems ridiculous, and i am not a huge fan of giant crowded cities. also, i have no interest in working in NYC so paying so much $$ to live there for 3 years seems kind of dumb to me.


This is exactly where I find myself. I am just not turned on by NYC in the same way that many are and don't think it is worth the added expense. And not necessarily wanting NYC biglaw moves Chicago a notch ahead of NYU for me. But its all about personal preference and desire for different outcomes. These are awesome schools.

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Reedie
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Re: Chicago v. NYU v. Penn

Postby Reedie » Fri Feb 19, 2010 1:16 pm

tintin wrote:looks like i will be choosing between these three as well. i don't want to go into biglaw, but i don't think i will have much debt upon graduation either. should i just go with whatever feels best after visiting? i am interested in academia so chicago seems to have that edge, but it's also freezing there, and their grading system seems horrible. i also feel like i've heard a lot about them being kinda uptight / conservative, and i'm a gay californian....


thoughts?


In academia religious bigots are extremely rare. I wouldn't worry too much about problems with being gay at Chicago. The village would probably offer more dating opportunities and such. Ok, there are two things I want to say:

1) Figure out what you want to work on and who you want to work with now and make your decision primarily on that basis. Academic jobs are based largely on letters of rec from prominent faculty who you know well. Find out who you might be interested in working with and try to meet them beforehand to see if you get along.

2) Chicago is definitely the better of those 3 for academic jobs.




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