Chicago v. NYU v. Penn Forum

[hiro86]

Honestly, I just hate trolls that constantly push their schools. I never said that the minor difference was the most important factor.

However, I hope you are ready to get a tattoo. Here are my calculations:
NYU has 450 students in a class, 66% of those end up in NYC, so 450*.66= roughly 297 NYU students target NYC.
Chicago has 190 students in a class, 19% of those end up in NYC, so 190*.19= roughly 36 Chicago students target NYC.

297/36= 8.25x as many NYU students target NYC.

Now, even if you say some Chicago students want NYC and can't get it, or whatever other factors you throw in... there's no way to dispute that at least 3-4x as many NYU students target NYC.

I shouldn't get involved, because there are problems with the statistical evidence provided on both sides of the argument. But to use an equation like this to prove that 8x as many students at NYU target NYC jobs vs students at Chicago is ridiculous. This number literally means nothing. You can't prove intent by the number of students hired. Now, if you can get information on the specific jobs the graduates applied for from each school, then you may have something. But you can easily look at these numbers you provided and say that NYU is better at Big Law because they have access to more big law firms in NY. And those options increase their chances to be hired. Since only 19% of CHI were hired from NY firms, they do not have such access. I do not support that statement, but wanted to provide an example of how you can make the numbers tell whatever story you want them to tell. Either way, both school are incredible and this thread should be locked.

NYC has typically been the easiest big law market for Chicago and NYU grads. So, it really is impossible for any reasonable person to think that enough Chicago grads are being shutout of NYC, yet end up employed elsewhere, to make up for the difference. On this single point, I clearly have solid evidence that shows Renzo is wrong. He will have to admit defeat on this one.

[badfish]

FTR, comparing a school like NYU or CLS to a school like U of C using %'s is a fairly silly exercise on its face.

[Renzo]

NYC has typically been the easiest big law market for Chicago and NYU grads. So, it really is impossible for any reasonable person to think that enough Chicago grads are being shutout of NYC, yet end up employed elsewhere, to make up for the difference. On this single point, I clearly have solid evidence that shows Renzo is wrong. He will have to admit defeat on this one.

Dude, nevermind. I was beat when I thought you were smart enough to reason with. Your ignorance is mind-blowing.

You don't understand the difference between wanting a job and getting a job. You found proof that fewer U Chi grads GOT jobs in NYC, and you think that it proves less U CHi WANTED jobs in NYC.

Where the F**K do you get that "NYC has typically been the easiest big law market for Chicago and NYU grads", so it's "impossible" to think that U Chi grads are frozen out of the market? It's "impossible" to think that it would be easier for a UChi grad to get a job in Chicago than in NYC? Really? Impossible?

You haven't proved anything, or even found a single piece of evidence.


For the rest of TLS, I'm sorry for my part in this wasted conversation, and for the derailed thread. I won't fall for it anymore. It's like Kurama 2.0, but obsessed with NLJ250 numbers instead of peer assessment scores.

[hopefullaw27]

hey renzo,

could you speak to the academic rigor of NYU? Naturally law school is tough, but do you think it's easier to be median/above at NYU than Chicago due to class size and the grading system? Ultimately, the differences between these two schools to me, are minute because I think (could be wrong) that those in the tops of their class in either school would have a plethora of opportunities open for them. Therefore, I think I should also consider where I believe I can excel the most...convoluted post (just finished a paper at the last second...)

[badfish]

hey renzo,

could you speak to the academic rigor of NYU? Naturally law school is tough, but do you think it's easier to be median/above at NYU than Chicago due to class size and the grading system? Ultimately, the differences between these two schools to me, are minute because I think (could be wrong) that those in the tops of their class in either school would have a plethora of opportunities open for them. Therefore, I think I should also consider where I believe I can excel the most...convoluted post (just finished a paper at the last second...)

Probably harder to distinguish yourself from the median @ NYU, but also harder to get median @ Chicago. That said, you won't have a good tell on grades until after they come back. You should really choose amongst these schools by looking at where you can see yourself spending 3 years, the rest of it is, in large part, a crapshoot.

Generally, Chi has a more accurate grading system so you can tell exactly where you fall. I still can't tell if this is something I'd like or dislike, I guess it all has to do with your confidence / risk aversion. Judges seem to like it though.

[The Brainalist]

Actually it is just an illustration, landing jobs is not anything at all like putting an orange ball into a ten-foot tall basket, unless that is part of your interview process.

Actually, it isn't just an illustration. An illustration that is not also an analogy would have to describe a circumstance that "illustrates" a general point without making reference to an alternate subject (such as basketball) which--for the purpose of discussion--is supposed to be analogous to the case at hand. As you note, basketball isn't a very analogy for comparing job placement stats.

I'm not talking about leiter's 15 firms thing. I don't find that very compelling either. Just the broader ones, the NLJ250, district and appellate and supreme court clerkships.

The NLJ250 isn't even trying to do the same thing as the Leiter study, and is simply an entirely different topic. The Leiter numbers attempted to measure how law schools place at the most elite firms. Listing off the entire NLJ250 is more like just asking how much of the class chose to work at big law firms, both those that are especially prestigious and those that are not. I have trouble really understanding how useful that info would be for trying to compare relatively similar institutions.

Supreme court clerkship numbers aren't very good because there are so few clerks and so many judges hire from institutions they favor without worrying too much about wading through all the qualified applicants. Chicago's supreme court placement is impressive, but it would probably be a mistake to read too much into schools that don't put a lot of clerks on the supreme court despite their reputation otherwise.

Now appellate clerkships are something Chicago really does shine in, and the institution has a right to be proud of that. I tend to think of this as related to their academic placement which has also been exceptional, and I think legitimately better than their peer institutions. If you want to be a legal academic Chicago is an outstanding place to go, probably better than Columbia or NYU and possibly better than Stanford.

Where Chicago doesn't shine currently is in government work and public interest. The new dean they hired from UCLA is apparently making this a priority, and I expect them to improve quite a bit. I don't fully understand why they don't seem to do as well in that, but I suspect part of their problem is a limited LRAP and perhaps they could also use just a bit of encouragement to their students who are interested in pursuing that path.

You see, basketball is nothing like law schools. It is an illustration not an analogy.

If I drew a picture of a basketball team and saw "this is an illustration of a law faculty" I wonder what you would make of that?

The USNWR reputation scores are sampling, but if memory serves the academic one gets more responses than the legal one, and maybe the had to average it over three years or something.

The academic one is probably more reliable than the other, but if I remember the data either a whole bunch of SCCN are tied or the differences between them are VERY small.

You seem to want to argue things that aren't pertinent. Basketball and law schools are almost in no way analagous. Law school and business school or medical school would be the kind of thing someone would use for analogy. The Basketball scenario simply illustrates one way in which we come to perceive a clear winner. REMOVE ALL REFERENCES TO BASKETBALL and focus on the point made.

If you did show me a picture of pro-ball players and said "law faculty are like this," I would think that you were trying to illustrate how highly regarded law faculty are. I would not respond "your analogy is flawed." That would not make any sense, and would be unnecessarily combative without advancing the discussion.

You do make a good point for PI/government,but my recollection is that Michigan and Berkeley have by far the best placement. NYU's placement, despite their reputation, much like chicago's law firm placement, still isn't so overwhelming that I would choose it for that reason. NYU is so close to Chicago and Columbia in everything, it does tend to work as a good tie-breaker or tie-maker.

[Renzo]

hey renzo,

could you speak to the academic rigor of NYU? Naturally law school is tough, but do you think it's easier to be median/above at NYU than Chicago due to class size and the grading system? Ultimately, the differences between these two schools to me, are minute because I think (could be wrong) that those in the tops of their class in either school would have a plethora of opportunities open for them. Therefore, I think I should also consider where I believe I can excel the most...convoluted post (just finished a paper at the last second...)

Probably harder to distinguish yourself from the median @ NYU, but also harder to get median @ Chicago. That said, you won't have a good tell on grades until after they come back. You should really choose amongst these schools by looking at where you can see yourself spending 3 years, the rest of it is, in large part, a crapshoot.

Generally, Chi has a more accurate grading system so you can tell exactly where you fall. I still can't tell if this is something I'd like or dislike, I guess it all has to do with your confidence / risk aversion. Judges seem to like it though.

I agree. Employers will be able to figure out who's in roughly the top third and probably the bottom 20%, but NYU doesn't rank students so for the most part everyone ends up in an amorphous middle. That probably hurts a few students who do well but not Order of the Coif well, but it helps those around and below the median by hiding just exactly where the curve sits. I'm a bit competitive by nature, so I was actually attracted to the point system at U Chi, but as I ended up near the median last semseter I might be better off under NYU's more gentle system. I would agree with Badfish that the curve should be a minor consideration.