University of San Francisco vs. Santa Clara

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barry zuckerkorn
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Re: University of San Francisco vs. Santa Clara

Postby barry zuckerkorn » Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:28 pm

Great Satchmo wrote:
I need to read up on the employment implications of OCI at schools, and then compare and contrast. I suppose this, plus employment numbers (taken with a grain of salt) will lend itself to the best picture available.

As far as loan calculations, it begs the question of how to anticipate scholarship. If it's renewable, do you make the decision to go to the school based on keeping it for three years? Or, do you attend the school you'd attend regardless of scholarship, and take it as a bonus?

For example, with SCU, it seems that there are a number of scholarships you can compete to obtain for 2L...well...kinda sounds like a renewable scholarship with stipulations: do well, and you get cash. So even though McGeorge is saying "be in the top 1/3rd of the class and you get cash", other schools may implicitly offer scholarships by class standing - either way, they are not guaranteed and banking on class standing seems to be extremely risky.

Given this, and my acceptances thus far, I feel like USD and SCU should be at the top of the list (despite no money from USD - and I think Loyola doesn't make sense for me...). They seem to have better job prospects in secondary markets, rather than being secondary schools in primary markets. The costs will be high, but if I do well I can reduce those costs and potentially find decent work.

I have no problems with the Valley. As much as I love living in the city, I realize that going to school in an insulated community with nice suburb around it played into my strengths of being able to focus. Having lived in Mountain View, I can definitely see myself moving back down there.

I think I'm talking myself into SCU...that or USD where I could live at home and save on housing for the first semester/year/however long I could stand it living at home - which could amount to what I'd be awarded at SCU the first and possibly second year....

*sigh* Please, Hastings/Davis/other reach...swoop in and make this easy. On another note...I'm W/L'd at Cardozo...


Sorry about the W/L, Satch.

I look at schollys as one year bonuses - if you do well enough, you'll get another. Calculate loan options a few ways. One at sticker. One with your initial scholly. One assuming you renew. See what the monthly payments boil down to for each (this could get tough with the tuition hikes at Hastings and Davis, though the predictions are out there somewhere, maybe on ATL); one I did last night taking a Stafford Exit interview was terrifying, tried to find it for you but I'm too lazy (clearly not up to par with Stanford researcher - was that your UG?).

I'm nearly set on SCU because of how great their staff has been in the admin process and for factors beyond debt (I know, crazy). They've put me in touch with alumn, students and are always prompt and friendly with answering my questions. Their crim. law faculty is very solid (one of their professors was on the OJ defense team that won), they place very well with PD/DA offices and they have the NorCal Innocence Project. All stuff that'll bode well with what I want to do, and overall it feels like it will be a great 3 years, even if I lose my scholly.

Definitely do the OCI research. Check up on competing schools faculty. If you're ballsy, maybe even email the admin offices with your predicament (Annemarie at SCU has always been very friendly towards me). If you can, visit. For me, the extra ~50-60k I'll be dropping for a SCU education (sans scholly) v. in-state tuition where I live now v. where I want to live and practice and the paygrade of PD/DA's in SCcounty v. IRB/CCRAA, it makes sense for me.

At schools hovering between 61 and 85 the past few years, the decision definitely comes down to which one meets your specific needs v. overall ranking. USNews is such an arbitrary hock; you'd be remiss to completely ignore them, but once you get a ways outside of the holy-trinity and lay prestige of the t14, it behooves one to start thinking about their situation specifically and not some interchangeable number.

You gotta lawyer for you.

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BiteyTLS
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Re: University of San Francisco vs. Santa Clara

Postby BiteyTLS » Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:15 pm

Great Satchmo wrote:Clearly some of you have an issue reading. I believe the title was USF vs. SCU, not "please tell me how poor of a decision I'm making".

This is the career path I've chosen, I am excited for it, it's going to be hard, but ultimately this is what I want to do.

Please take this obnoxious attitude into a Georgetown thread to bash people there.

Thanks.


I love the self-righteous fiery of this sediment

The sediment essentially being a pride in ignorance. To paraphrase "I really don't care about the evidence or the facts on the ground! I merely have this vague sense of intuition that my belief is logical."

You went to a public forum seeking advice. Those posting are of the assumption that you are attempting to gauge your options, perform a cost-benefit analysis on the risks, and make the best possible decision with the evidence available. Instead we get someone that classifies information that doesn't conform to their worldview as "obnoxious" and demands that people select between two equally bad decisions.

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barry zuckerkorn
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Re: University of San Francisco vs. Santa Clara

Postby barry zuckerkorn » Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:25 pm

BiteyTLS wrote:
Great Satchmo wrote:Clearly some of you have an issue reading. I believe the title was USF vs. SCU, not "please tell me how poor of a decision I'm making".

This is the career path I've chosen, I am excited for it, it's going to be hard, but ultimately this is what I want to do.

Please take this obnoxious attitude into a Georgetown thread to bash people there.

Thanks.


I love the self-righteous fiery of this sediment

The sediment essentially being a pride in ignorance. To paraphrase "I really don't care about the evidence or the facts on the ground! I merely have this vague sense of intuition that my belief is logical."

You went to a public forum seeking advice. Those posting are of the assumption that you are attempting to gauge your options, perform a cost-benefit analysis on the risks, and make the best possible decision with the evidence available. Instead we get someone that classifies information that doesn't conform to their worldview as "obnoxious" and demands that people select between two equally bad decisions.


I don't wanna force you to my worldview or anything, or negate your cost-benefit cred, but could you possibly mean "sentiment"? I don't see any muddy,organic matter anywhere...

EDIT: not worth it.
Last edited by barry zuckerkorn on Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:39 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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RadMobile
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Re: University of San Francisco vs. Santa Clara

Postby RadMobile » Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:30 pm

Great Satchmo wrote:Clearly some of you have an issue reading. I believe the title was USF vs. SCU, not "please tell me how poor of a decision I'm making".

This is the career path I've chosen, I am excited for it, it's going to be hard, but ultimately this is what I want to do.

Please take this obnoxious attitude into a Georgetown thread to bash people there.

Thanks.


+1

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Great Satchmo
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Re: University of San Francisco vs. Santa Clara

Postby Great Satchmo » Thu Feb 18, 2010 1:45 pm

BiteyTLS wrote:
Great Satchmo wrote:Clearly some of you have an issue reading. I believe the title was USF vs. SCU, not "please tell me how poor of a decision I'm making".

This is the career path I've chosen, I am excited for it, it's going to be hard, but ultimately this is what I want to do.

Please take this obnoxious attitude into a Georgetown thread to bash people there.

Thanks.


I love the self-righteous fiery of this sediment

The sediment essentially being a pride in ignorance. To paraphrase "I really don't care about the evidence or the facts on the ground! I merely have this vague sense of intuition that my belief is logical."

You went to a public forum seeking advice. Those posting are of the assumption that you are attempting to gauge your options, perform a cost-benefit analysis on the risks, and make the best possible decision with the evidence available. Instead we get someone that classifies information that doesn't conform to their worldview as "obnoxious" and demands that people select between two equally bad decisions.


Sentiment.

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Great Satchmo
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Re: University of San Francisco vs. Santa Clara

Postby Great Satchmo » Thu Feb 18, 2010 1:58 pm

BiteyTLS wrote:
Great Satchmo wrote:Clearly some of you have an issue reading. I believe the title was USF vs. SCU, not "please tell me how poor of a decision I'm making".

This is the career path I've chosen, I am excited for it, it's going to be hard, but ultimately this is what I want to do.

Please take this obnoxious attitude into a Georgetown thread to bash people there.

Thanks.


I love the self-righteous fiery of this sediment

The sediment essentially being a pride in ignorance. To paraphrase "I really don't care about the evidence or the facts on the ground! I merely have this vague sense of intuition that my belief is logical."

You went to a public forum seeking advice. Those posting are of the assumption that you are attempting to gauge your options, perform a cost-benefit analysis on the risks, and make the best possible decision with the evidence available. Instead we get someone that classifies information that doesn't conform to their worldview as "obnoxious" and demands that people select between two equally bad decisions.


Actually, sentiment twice.

I was not asking "is it worth it". You incorrectly make the assumption that I have not looked at my options, considered the debt burden, and considered the state of the economy.

What I get annoyed with is this "prestige or bust" attitude that is so prevalent here which seems to even trickle down to undergraduate institutions. I get it, being top of the class in ivy league schools is your best bet, however it is, by nature, a discrete number of people who can achieve this.

If you want to talk about delusions, look at the attitude that many posters on here have. They speak about entrance to a law school as a ticket to highly paid firm jobs. The idea that a T-14 graduate is not finding work, oh no - someone who went to a good school didn't get a job? Oh, the humanity!

If I wanted your opinion as to whether law school was the right decision for me, I'd have asked. In fact, I would have asked a long time ago. I also would have made a thread entitle: "Should I go to law school or get a PhD instead". I'm sure, however, that I would have been lambasted with "faculty positions are impossible to get, especially in the social sciences".

In general, you are assuming I am making this decision as a purely fiscal one, and you are incorrect in doing so. Similarly, I am not making this decision in direct opposition to facts.

Truth be told, I expect it to be a tough career, at least in the beginning years. However, I've NEVER in my life expected a job or career to be handed to me. Frankly I'm still surprised when people here so openly express their expectations that jobs will be thrown at them if they go to the best schools.

Get over yourself. Get over the idea that everyone here is some hollow, prestige-seeking, power-hungry, starry-eyed kid.
Last edited by Great Satchmo on Thu Feb 18, 2010 2:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Great Satchmo
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Re: University of San Francisco vs. Santa Clara

Postby Great Satchmo » Thu Feb 18, 2010 2:00 pm

Great Satchmo wrote:
BiteyTLS wrote:
Great Satchmo wrote:Clearly some of you have an issue reading. I believe the title was USF vs. SCU, not "please tell me how poor of a decision I'm making".

This is the career path I've chosen, I am excited for it, it's going to be hard, but ultimately this is what I want to do.

Please take this obnoxious attitude into a Georgetown thread to bash people there.

Thanks.


I love the self-righteous fiery of this sediment

The sediment essentially being a pride in ignorance. To paraphrase "I really don't care about the evidence or the facts on the ground! I merely have this vague sense of intuition that my belief is logical."

You went to a public forum seeking advice. Those posting are of the assumption that you are attempting to gauge your options, perform a cost-benefit analysis on the risks, and make the best possible decision with the evidence available. Instead we get someone that classifies information that doesn't conform to their worldview as "obnoxious" and demands that people select between two equally bad decisions.


Sentiment.


Also, check the use of "fiery".

Edit: Maybe try "The fiery self-righteousness of this statement". Probably adheres a bit more to the conventions of the English language.
Last edited by Great Satchmo on Thu Feb 18, 2010 2:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Great Satchmo
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Re: University of San Francisco vs. Santa Clara

Postby Great Satchmo » Thu Feb 18, 2010 2:13 pm

barry zuckerkorn wrote:
Great Satchmo wrote:
I need to read up on the employment implications of OCI at schools, and then compare and contrast. I suppose this, plus employment numbers (taken with a grain of salt) will lend itself to the best picture available.

As far as loan calculations, it begs the question of how to anticipate scholarship. If it's renewable, do you make the decision to go to the school based on keeping it for three years? Or, do you attend the school you'd attend regardless of scholarship, and take it as a bonus?

For example, with SCU, it seems that there are a number of scholarships you can compete to obtain for 2L...well...kinda sounds like a renewable scholarship with stipulations: do well, and you get cash. So even though McGeorge is saying "be in the top 1/3rd of the class and you get cash", other schools may implicitly offer scholarships by class standing - either way, they are not guaranteed and banking on class standing seems to be extremely risky.

Given this, and my acceptances thus far, I feel like USD and SCU should be at the top of the list (despite no money from USD - and I think Loyola doesn't make sense for me...). They seem to have better job prospects in secondary markets, rather than being secondary schools in primary markets. The costs will be high, but if I do well I can reduce those costs and potentially find decent work.

I have no problems with the Valley. As much as I love living in the city, I realize that going to school in an insulated community with nice suburb around it played into my strengths of being able to focus. Having lived in Mountain View, I can definitely see myself moving back down there.

I think I'm talking myself into SCU...that or USD where I could live at home and save on housing for the first semester/year/however long I could stand it living at home - which could amount to what I'd be awarded at SCU the first and possibly second year....

*sigh* Please, Hastings/Davis/other reach...swoop in and make this easy. On another note...I'm W/L'd at Cardozo...


Sorry about the W/L, Satch.

I look at schollys as one year bonuses - if you do well enough, you'll get another. Calculate loan options a few ways. One at sticker. One with your initial scholly. One assuming you renew. See what the monthly payments boil down to for each (this could get tough with the tuition hikes at Hastings and Davis, though the predictions are out there somewhere, maybe on ATL); one I did last night taking a Stafford Exit interview was terrifying, tried to find it for you but I'm too lazy (clearly not up to par with Stanford researcher - was that your UG?).

I'm nearly set on SCU because of how great their staff has been in the admin process and for factors beyond debt (I know, crazy). They've put me in touch with alumn, students and are always prompt and friendly with answering my questions. Their crim. law faculty is very solid (one of their professors was on the OJ defense team that won), they place very well with PD/DA offices and they have the NorCal Innocence Project. All stuff that'll bode well with what I want to do, and overall it feels like it will be a great 3 years, even if I lose my scholly.

Definitely do the OCI research. Check up on competing schools faculty. If you're ballsy, maybe even email the admin offices with your predicament (Annemarie at SCU has always been very friendly towards me). If you can, visit. For me, the extra ~50-60k I'll be dropping for a SCU education (sans scholly) v. in-state tuition where I live now v. where I want to live and practice and the paygrade of PD/DA's in SCcounty v. IRB/CCRAA, it makes sense for me.

At schools hovering between 61 and 85 the past few years, the decision definitely comes down to which one meets your specific needs v. overall ranking. USNews is such an arbitrary hock; you'd be remiss to completely ignore them, but once you get a ways outside of the holy-trinity and lay prestige of the t14, it behooves one to start thinking about their situation specifically and not some interchangeable number.

You gotta lawyer for you.



Well, my initial conception of OCI is like scholarship. If you have a renewable scholarship, you have to assume you will be in the top percentage of the class to get money in 2L. With OCI, you seem to need to be in the top of your class to get them. So, again, it seems to be banking on class ranking. Seems to me that those not getting OCI are the ones to look at for a more broad sense of employment prospects.

My concern with SCU, and this is something I need to start talking to people at the school about, is my interest in business/corporate law and how it fits in with SCU. I only worry that most of it would be inaccessible to me since I don't have the tech background, which seems to be the focus of the school.

Although, I know I'll be flexible in what I study, I just want to find a balance of something intellectually stimulation and challenging (that can also be rewarding in the same sense) as well as something marketable.

Lastly, Stanford was not my UG, not even close. I went to a state school (not even UC) that, unless you're from Northern California, you probably don't know it.

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barry zuckerkorn
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Re: University of San Francisco vs. Santa Clara

Postby barry zuckerkorn » Thu Feb 18, 2010 6:13 pm

Great Satchmo wrote:
barry zuckerkorn wrote:
Great Satchmo wrote:
I need to read up on the employment implications of OCI at schools, and then compare and contrast. I suppose this, plus employment numbers (taken with a grain of salt) will lend itself to the best picture available.

As far as loan calculations, it begs the question of how to anticipate scholarship. If it's renewable, do you make the decision to go to the school based on keeping it for three years? Or, do you attend the school you'd attend regardless of scholarship, and take it as a bonus?

For example, with SCU, it seems that there are a number of scholarships you can compete to obtain for 2L...well...kinda sounds like a renewable scholarship with stipulations: do well, and you get cash. So even though McGeorge is saying "be in the top 1/3rd of the class and you get cash", other schools may implicitly offer scholarships by class standing - either way, they are not guaranteed and banking on class standing seems to be extremely risky.

Given this, and my acceptances thus far, I feel like USD and SCU should be at the top of the list (despite no money from USD - and I think Loyola doesn't make sense for me...). They seem to have better job prospects in secondary markets, rather than being secondary schools in primary markets. The costs will be high, but if I do well I can reduce those costs and potentially find decent work.

I have no problems with the Valley. As much as I love living in the city, I realize that going to school in an insulated community with nice suburb around it played into my strengths of being able to focus. Having lived in Mountain View, I can definitely see myself moving back down there.

I think I'm talking myself into SCU...that or USD where I could live at home and save on housing for the first semester/year/however long I could stand it living at home - which could amount to what I'd be awarded at SCU the first and possibly second year....

*sigh* Please, Hastings/Davis/other reach...swoop in and make this easy. On another note...I'm W/L'd at Cardozo...


Sorry about the W/L, Satch.

I look at schollys as one year bonuses - if you do well enough, you'll get another. Calculate loan options a few ways. One at sticker. One with your initial scholly. One assuming you renew. See what the monthly payments boil down to for each (this could get tough with the tuition hikes at Hastings and Davis, though the predictions are out there somewhere, maybe on ATL); one I did last night taking a Stafford Exit interview was terrifying, tried to find it for you but I'm too lazy (clearly not up to par with Stanford researcher - was that your UG?).

I'm nearly set on SCU because of how great their staff has been in the admin process and for factors beyond debt (I know, crazy). They've put me in touch with alumn, students and are always prompt and friendly with answering my questions. Their crim. law faculty is very solid (one of their professors was on the OJ defense team that won), they place very well with PD/DA offices and they have the NorCal Innocence Project. All stuff that'll bode well with what I want to do, and overall it feels like it will be a great 3 years, even if I lose my scholly.

Definitely do the OCI research. Check up on competing schools faculty. If you're ballsy, maybe even email the admin offices with your predicament (Annemarie at SCU has always been very friendly towards me). If you can, visit. For me, the extra ~50-60k I'll be dropping for a SCU education (sans scholly) v. in-state tuition where I live now v. where I want to live and practice and the paygrade of PD/DA's in SCcounty v. IRB/CCRAA, it makes sense for me.

At schools hovering between 61 and 85 the past few years, the decision definitely comes down to which one meets your specific needs v. overall ranking. USNews is such an arbitrary hock; you'd be remiss to completely ignore them, but once you get a ways outside of the holy-trinity and lay prestige of the t14, it behooves one to start thinking about their situation specifically and not some interchangeable number.

You gotta lawyer for you.



Well, my initial conception of OCI is like scholarship. If you have a renewable scholarship, you have to assume you will be in the top percentage of the class to get money in 2L. With OCI, you seem to need to be in the top of your class to get them. So, again, it seems to be banking on class ranking. Seems to me that those not getting OCI are the ones to look at for a more broad sense of employment prospects.

My concern with SCU, and this is something I need to start talking to people at the school about, is my interest in business/corporate law and how it fits in with SCU. I only worry that most of it would be inaccessible to me since I don't have the tech background, which seems to be the focus of the school.

Although, I know I'll be flexible in what I study, I just want to find a balance of something intellectually stimulation and challenging (that can also be rewarding in the same sense) as well as something marketable.

Lastly, Stanford was not my UG, not even close. I went to a state school (not even UC) that, unless you're from Northern California, you probably don't know it.


Wow, you really laid into Bitey. I gave him/her the benefit of the doubt with "fiery", but "sediment" was too rich to ignore.

Definitely email the admissions office. They may be able to put you in touch with some SCU alum. I don't know if USF has the same M.O., it's hard to imagine that they do not. But the SCU alumn I was fortunate enough to speak with quelled my fears re: jobs and income (you know surprisingly, this isn't the first time the economy has sucked), albeit for no other reason than the whole truth (according to them) and nothing but.

Good luck Satch. Go easy on the less articulate and voluble.

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Great Satchmo
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Re: University of San Francisco vs. Santa Clara

Postby Great Satchmo » Thu Feb 18, 2010 6:39 pm

barry zuckerkorn wrote:Wow, you really laid into Bitey. I gave him/her the benefit of the doubt with "fiery", but "sediment" was too rich to ignore.

Definitely email the admissions office. They may be able to put you in touch with some SCU alum. I don't know if USF has the same M.O., it's hard to imagine that they do not. But the SCU alumn I was fortunate enough to speak with quelled my fears re: jobs and income (you know surprisingly, this isn't the first time the economy has sucked), albeit for no other reason than the whole truth (according to them) and nothing but.

Good luck Satch. Go easy on the less articulate and voluble.


It seems like there may be an elitist sentiment in the law profession, at least in some venues, and that it will be in our best interests in the future, without the ivy name, to ensure we do not succumb to any rhetoric and to do our best to disprove it.

Anyhow, I am going to e-mail the admissions office at SCU and talk to them about getting into contact with a recent graduate and possibly a 2L/3L that are in fields I'd be interested in. I was avoiding this because I was afraid I'd be handed off someone trying to peddle their school/alma mater and it'd be another information source I'd have to filter.

TRex77
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Re: University of San Francisco vs. Santa Clara

Postby TRex77 » Fri Mar 08, 2013 6:44 pm

I am in this same predicament. I know it's an old thread, but have sentiments regarding USF vs. SCU changed? I am leaning towards SCU because they have a pretty good alumni network. USF might have a good one as well, I just haven't heard much about it...

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Re: University of San Francisco vs. Santa Clara

Postby Rahviveh » Fri Mar 08, 2013 6:52 pm

TRex77 wrote:I am in this same predicament. I know it's an old thread, but have sentiments regarding USF vs. SCU changed? I am leaning towards SCU because they have a pretty good alumni network. USF might have a good one as well, I just haven't heard much about it...


Wow, TLS was really a different world two years ago lol.

Take the posts in this thread with a grain of salt. The advice is very dated.

TRex77
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Re: University of San Francisco vs. Santa Clara

Postby TRex77 » Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:19 pm

ChampagnePapi wrote:
TRex77 wrote:I am in this same predicament. I know it's an old thread, but have sentiments regarding USF vs. SCU changed? I am leaning towards SCU because they have a pretty good alumni network. USF might have a good one as well, I just haven't heard much about it...


Wow, TLS was really a different world two years ago lol.

Take the posts in this thread with a grain of salt. The advice is very dated.


Yeah, I didn't pay much attention to it, just thought I would bump this one up before starting my own thread. Any thoughts on the subject?

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Dr. Dre
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Re: University of San Francisco vs. Santa Clara

Postby Dr. Dre » Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:46 pm

I'd take SCU (they have hot girls)

wayy better than the unaccredited toilet that is UCI

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Re: University of San Francisco vs. Santa Clara

Postby froglee » Fri Mar 08, 2013 9:21 pm

Well, SCU's ranking and prestige are "a little bit"better than USF in general. But both school's job placement statistics are pathetic in an identical way.

And if you want to do corporate law, then going to these two law schools are bad choices. You better go to Stanford, Berkeley, or other T14s. Or AT LEAST UCLA or USC to have a chance to practice corporate law in Cal.

USF and SCU reputations are nothing compare to these schools, and that is already too many schools in Cal.

If you ask me, I would just say don't go to these schools, because you will just end up jobless regardless how well you do. If you have scholarship, you will still waste 3 big years.

And...don't listen to the SCU reputation in IP thing. That's all bullshit. IP Employers only care whether you are T14 or not.
Last edited by froglee on Fri Mar 08, 2013 9:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Dr. Dre
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Re: University of San Francisco vs. Santa Clara

Postby Dr. Dre » Fri Mar 08, 2013 9:29 pm

froglee wrote:IP Employers only care whether you are T14 or not.

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Re: University of San Francisco vs. Santa Clara

Postby WhiskeynCoke » Fri Mar 08, 2013 10:18 pm

OP, I understand that you are frustrated with being consistently force-fed the "T14 or Bust" line, but considering the debt burdens vs employment outcomes, USF and SCU at near sticker is near financial suicide. However, if you had significant savings and you graduate with $50k of debt or less (negotiate scholarships up), you could limit your risk to a manageable level (not life-ending). If you haven't visited their Law school transparency score reports, you need to do so immediately.

USF: 33.33% employed in Full Time Legal jobs, ~41.4% unemployed (not even at Starbucks)
- Cost of Attendance = $229,128
http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=sanfranciso
SCU: 40.9% employed in Full Time Legal jobs, ~26% unemployed
- Cost of Attendance = $238,655.
http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=santaclara

Are you really willing to go over $200k in debt for a 1 in 3 or even 2 in 5 shot of landing ANY type of legal job? That's worse odds than a coin flip for the price of a Ferrari. I know an unemployed SCU grad (my dental hygienists son). Hes been out for 4 years and never managed to find a legal job.

Think it over harder.




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