Public Interest - Harvard v. NYU?

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gilagarta
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Public Interest - Harvard v. NYU?

Postby gilagarta » Tue Feb 09, 2010 1:48 am

Hello,

I'd appreciate anyone's advice on my potential decision! This is hypothetical, but I imagine my decision is going to come down to Harvard v. NYU for public interest law. I'm already in at Harvard and haven't gotten in to NYU yet, but I'm hoping I will. I currently live in NYC and love it here, and from the research I've done it seems that NYU has better opportunities in PI--but that could just be my love of NYC biasing me.

So is the Harvard name/rank more important than the more numerous PI opportunities at NYU?

Also, if I were to get the full tuition RTK scholarship at NYU (highly unlikely as that is), should that tip the scales?

I'll be thrilled to go to either school, but I just want to make sure that I don't choose either for the wrong reasons. Thanks for your help!

BenJ
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Re: Public Interest - Harvard v. NYU?

Postby BenJ » Tue Feb 09, 2010 3:51 am

Harvard over NYU, RTK scholarship over Harvard. Done.

Renzo
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Re: Public Interest - Harvard v. NYU?

Postby Renzo » Tue Feb 09, 2010 6:42 am

BenJ wrote:Harvard over NYU, RTK scholarship over Harvard. Done.

Done.

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TheLuckyOne
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Re: Public Interest - Harvard v. NYU?

Postby TheLuckyOne » Tue Feb 09, 2010 6:54 am

Is it even a question? Really?!

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OperaSoprano
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Re: Public Interest - Harvard v. NYU?

Postby OperaSoprano » Tue Feb 09, 2010 7:11 am

Renzo wrote:
BenJ wrote:Harvard over NYU, RTK scholarship over Harvard. Done.

Done.


I like this. In another lifetime (one in which my numbers were much better), I would have taken a full ride at NYU over anything, but that could be personal preference at play. Good luck and congrats- hope you get this choice!

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badfish
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Re: Public Interest - Harvard v. NYU?

Postby badfish » Tue Feb 09, 2010 8:24 am

Renzo wrote:
BenJ wrote:Harvard over NYU, RTK scholarship over Harvard. Done.

Done.


TITCR. Keep in mind renzo and i are both NYU students so we have a vested interest in having you come here. Harvard is just THAT good, but a full ride to NYU on a prestigious named scholarship is better.

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gilagarta
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Re: Public Interest - Harvard v. NYU?

Postby gilagarta » Tue Feb 09, 2010 4:44 pm

Thanks for the advice! I know it sounds like a ridiculous question, but it's where I'm at. :) It would be a nice decision to have to make!

mwazaumoja
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Re: Public Interest - Harvard v. NYU?

Postby mwazaumoja » Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:13 pm

I want to dissent as a proud NYU student, but although many of us turned down Columbia for our stop in the Village, it is a rare person who turns down Harvard. The whole purpose of the RTK is to retain people who would have gone to Harvard, so I think you're best just sticking with what the general consensus has said.

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ccs224
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Re: Public Interest - Harvard v. NYU?

Postby ccs224 » Wed Feb 10, 2010 2:08 am

God, I wish I was faced with such a problem (or this one: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/04/garden/04nannies.html?em). You'll be fine either way. If you love NYC enough, you wouldn't be wrong to stay, but otherwise, Harvard's name will trump pretty much anything else.

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BlueCivic
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Re: Public Interest - Harvard v. NYU?

Postby BlueCivic » Wed Feb 10, 2010 2:10 am

I'm in the exact same boat. How much does "having a named scholarship" matter. Would it help with academia/COA clerkships?

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Kronk
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Re: Public Interest - Harvard v. NYU?

Postby Kronk » Wed Feb 10, 2010 2:17 am

I don't know if it's as cut and dry (although the NYU students would seem to suggest it is such). Harvard is clearly the better school, but I don't think it would take an RTK to make NYU the better choice. Especially considering that NYU's LRAP will give you about 5-6k more a year take-home income than Harvard's LIPP.

I don't know what Harvard has that compares, but the PILC is pretty amazing at NYU from what I hear.

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chris0805
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Re: Public Interest - Harvard v. NYU?

Postby chris0805 » Wed Feb 10, 2010 11:53 am

Kronk wrote:I don't know if it's as cut and dry (although the NYU students would seem to suggest it is such). Harvard is clearly the better school, but I don't think it would take an RTK to make NYU the better choice. Especially considering that NYU's LRAP will give you about 5-6k more a year take-home income than Harvard's LIPP.

I don't know what Harvard has that compares, but the PILC is pretty amazing at NYU from what I hear.


Harvard has their version of PILC called OPIA which is also great. Furthermore, by forgiving the third year tuition for public interest students, Harvard puts you in a position that will cap your loan payments. If you take a lower paying public interest position, you'll get a few more (maybe 1-4) thousand in take home as an NYU alum, but you'd be better off with HLS if you take a higher position in the government. At that point though, cost is close enough. I'd just go to the better school, which would be Harvard unless you think that not being the NYC market would be the absolute worst thing imagineable. Then, I could maybe see it as a little more of a toss-up.

Of course, an RTK changes EVERYTHING. Then, you would have another discussion to think about.

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scribelaw
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Re: Public Interest - Harvard v. NYU?

Postby scribelaw » Wed Feb 10, 2010 11:57 am

Why do you think you're a longshot for the RTK? You have great numbers, and seem dedicated to PI. I'd assume you'd at least be invited over for the interview, no?

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Unemployed
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Re: Public Interest - Harvard v. NYU?

Postby Unemployed » Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:04 pm

chris0805 wrote:
Kronk wrote:I don't know if it's as cut and dry (although the NYU students would seem to suggest it is such). Harvard is clearly the better school, but I don't think it would take an RTK to make NYU the better choice. Especially considering that NYU's LRAP will give you about 5-6k more a year take-home income than Harvard's LIPP.

I don't know what Harvard has that compares, but the PILC is pretty amazing at NYU from what I hear.


Harvard has their version of PILC called OPIA which is also great. Furthermore, by forgiving the third year tuition for public interest students, Harvard puts you in a position that will cap your loan payments. If you take a lower paying public interest position, you'll get a few more (maybe 1-4) thousand in take home as an NYU alum, but you'd be better off with HLS if you take a higher position in the government. At that point though, cost is close enough. I'd just go to the better school, which would be Harvard unless you think that not being the NYC market would be the absolute worst thing imagineable. Then, I could maybe see it as a little more of a toss-up.

Of course, an RTK changes EVERYTHING. Then, you would have another discussion to think about.


I thought they scrapped this program in less than a year, and screwed public-spirited people in the Class of 2012 who chose HLS (over, say, Stanford or $$ at CLS/NYU) in reliance.

Edit: I take this back. Apparently Class of 2012 is still covered. But yes, they discontinued the program.

--LinkRemoved--
Last edited by Unemployed on Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

lawyering
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Re: Public Interest - Harvard v. NYU?

Postby lawyering » Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:09 pm

chris0805 wrote:
Kronk wrote:I don't know if it's as cut and dry (although the NYU students would seem to suggest it is such). Harvard is clearly the better school, but I don't think it would take an RTK to make NYU the better choice. Especially considering that NYU's LRAP will give you about 5-6k more a year take-home income than Harvard's LIPP.

I don't know what Harvard has that compares, but the PILC is pretty amazing at NYU from what I hear.


Harvard has their version of PILC called OPIA which is also great. Furthermore, by forgiving the third year tuition for public interest students, Harvard puts you in a position that will cap your loan payments. If you take a lower paying public interest position, you'll get a few more (maybe 1-4) thousand in take home as an NYU alum, but you'd be better off with HLS if you take a higher position in the government. At that point though, cost is close enough. I'd just go to the better school, which would be Harvard unless you think that not being the NYC market would be the absolute worst thing imagineable. Then, I could maybe see it as a little more of a toss-up.

Of course, an RTK changes EVERYTHING. Then, you would have another discussion to think about.


Harvard no longer pays for PI students' 3L year, FWIW. That ended with the class of 2012.

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chris0805
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Re: Public Interest - Harvard v. NYU?

Postby chris0805 » Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:09 pm

Thanks for that correction. :oops: :oops: I assumed a school of Harvard's caliber wouldn't have created and scrapped such a program so quickly.

As it is then, you're a little bit (financially) better off at NYU with lower paying public interest positions and about the same at higher paying ones. Regardless, I think costs are close enough to choose on overall school, not on LRAPs.

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scribelaw
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Re: Public Interest - Harvard v. NYU?

Postby scribelaw » Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:15 pm

NYU has such an awesome LRAP program, you really won't be paying much in loans whether you get the RTK or not.

The only thing about LRAP is if you have a high-earning spouse -- or acquire one over the 10-year period after law school -- the LRAP benefit could disappear, depending on how much they make. Major marriage penalty.

aquasaqua
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Re: Public Interest - Harvard v. NYU?

Postby aquasaqua » Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:17 pm

I would call the OPIA office at Harvard and talk to one of the advisers. I am at HLS and one of my classmates was in the same position last year. She talked with Alexa Shabecoff who runs the OPIA office and went to NYU for advice.

notaname
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Re: Public Interest - Harvard v. NYU?

Postby notaname » Wed Feb 10, 2010 2:59 pm


Harvard no longer pays for PI students' 3L year, FWIW. That ended with the class of 2012.


HLS just announced a replacement program for the failed tuition initiative:

http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2010/ ... dents-law/

sfdreaming09
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Re: Public Interest - Harvard v. NYU?

Postby sfdreaming09 » Wed Feb 10, 2010 3:20 pm

Here's the email we got yesterday from Dean Minow:

"FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE Robb London (617) 894-4375
February 9, 2010 Emily Dupraz (617) 384-7817


Harvard Law School launches new Public Service Venture Fund

CAMBRIDGE, MA (Tuesday, February 9, 2010) – Harvard Law School today announced the creation of the Public Service Venture Fund, which will start by awarding $1 million in grants every year to help graduating students pursue careers in public service.

The first program of its kind at a law school, the fund will offer “seed money” for start-up non-profit ventures and salary support to students who hope to pursue post-graduate work at nonprofits or government agencies in the United States and abroad.

“This new fund is inspired by our students’ passion for justice,” said Harvard Law School Dean Martha Minow. “It’s an investment that will pay dividends not only for our students but also for the countless number of people whose lives they will touch during their public service careers.”

The creation of the Public Service Venture Fund is the latest step taken by the Law School to offer new forms of assistance for students who are interested in public service careers. In November, Dean Minow announced an increase in the availability of financial aid overall and a broadening of eligibility for the school’s loan relief program. She also established 12 new Holmes Fellowships for students interested in post-graduate public service work. All told, financial support for students interested in public service has increased by $2.75M this year.

To obtain support from the new fund, applicants will submit proposals explaining how the post-graduate grants will help them get started in public service. Minow said the fund will bolster the creative thinking of publicly spirited law graduates at a time when the legal profession itself is becoming more entrepreneurial.

“The new venture fund is exactly in sync with that,” said Professor David Wilkins, the faculty director of the Program on the Legal Profession and the Center on Lawyers and the Professional Services Industry at Harvard Law School. “It’s also in sync with the values emphasized in our curriculum, and with our pro bono ethos and our strong emphasis on clinical education, all of which encourage students to think creatively about designing interesting projects and approaches to helping people.”

The new venture fund follows a three-year pilot program covering the third year of HLS tuition for graduates who commit the first five years of their careers to public service. It will offer targeted and flexible support for students who are embarking on public service careers, said Alexa Shabecoff, Harvard Law School’s assistant dean for public service.

“When jobs are especially hard to come by, the fund may provide fellowships in order to create jobs,” Shabecoff said. “It will also supplement salaries for graduates hoping to work for nonprofits that can only afford to pay for part-time positions. In this ever-shifting legal job market, we will offer our students the ability to land the job of their dreams or create it.”

A number of HLS alumni have started nonprofits straight out of law school or soon thereafter, such as Alan Khazei ’87 and Michael Brown ’88, who started City Year, and Jennifer Gordon ’92 who started the Workplace Project and won a MacArthur ‘genius’ award for her work. “The new Venture Fund honors some of our most successful and inspiring alumni even as it plants the seeds for the next generation of public service leaders and social entrepreneurs,” Minow said.

The fund is planned to start with distributions of $1 million annually and to increase as the Law School works to raise additional resources, Minow said.

The fund will be governed by a board established by the Dean. The board will include senior administrators, faculty members, and alumni from both the private and public sectors. Advisors helping as the school launches the fund include: Susan Butler Plum, director of the Skadden Fellowship Foundation; Alan Khazei ’87, founder and chief executive officer of Be The Change, Inc. and founder and former chief executive officer of City Year; Rebecca Onie ’03, founder and chief executive officer of Project HEALTH, and winner of a 2009 MacArthur ‘genius’ grant; Paul Rosenberg ’79, a partner at The Bridgespan Group in Boston; Ken Zimmerman ’88, a partner at Lowenstein Sandler PC and chair of Lowenstein Sandler Center for the Public Interest; and Alan Jenkins, executive director and co-founder of the The Opportunity Agenda, and former Director of Human Rights at the Ford Foundation, where he managed over $50 million in grants annually in the United States and overseas.

Susan Butler Plum: “This project is simply admirable and inspiring. Harvard Law School sets the national standard for public interest advising and support, and this new approach will enable more graduating students to do more kinds of critically important public service work than ever before.”

Alan Khazei: “In starting City Year, we wanted to make it an ordinary occurrence that all young people would complete at least one year of public service. That program was truly born at Harvard – it’s something we thought about as undergraduates, and then we committed to making a reality after we graduated from Harvard Law School. Through this new venture fund, Harvard Law is moving forward with an idea that I think is absolutely necessary to this nation’s future success – we all need to invest as much as possible in the future of public service. I sincerely applaud Dean Minow and Harvard Law School for making this happen.”

Rebecca Onie: “The Law School’s new Public Service Venture Fund creates powerful incentives and opportunities for HLS students to become public service innovators at a time when our society needs them the most. As an alumna in the field of social entrepreneurship, I see everyday the need for a rich pipeline of new leaders who can identify our society's most pressing challenges and develop creative, effective solutions for those problems. This Fund breaks new ground in enabling HLS graduates to be great thinkers and contributors not only in traditional legal practice, but also in pursuing multi-disciplinary, unconventional pathways to achieve social justice.”

Ken Zimmerman: “Harvard Law School is once again taking a critically important step to further the next generation of public service leaders. The challenges of public interest service, especially in these demanding times, require the highest level of skill, creativity, and entrepreneurship. Through this fund, the school is making it possible for its students to take on our society’s most significant challenges and reinforcing the school’s long-standing recognition of the importance of public service and public interest work.”

Alan Jenkins: “With this new venture fund, Harvard Law School is putting its money where its mouth is, giving talented new graduates the support they need to be imaginative and inspired new leaders. Having co-founded a public interest organization myself, I know how difficult it can be to put good ideas into practice. We need this fund at this critical time in our nation’s history – to help a rising generation of leaders pursue creative solutions to our society’s most dire problems.”"

mwazaumoja
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Re: Public Interest - Harvard v. NYU?

Postby mwazaumoja » Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:41 pm

I think the real concern is, even though NYU has contacts that could get you any of the same PI jobs that Harvard could (if not better), the real problem comes in finding clerkships. I just think that people at Harvard would have an easier time grabbing the federal and appellate clerkships, and this can provide a huge career bonus.

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Cleareyes
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Re: Public Interest - Harvard v. NYU?

Postby Cleareyes » Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:59 pm

I think it depends on the PI that you want to do. If you want to go for the really super hard to get jobs, Harvard may give you an edge that makes up for the fact that you have to live in Cambridge. If you have more modest or specific aspirations I'd take a long hard look at NYU. There's a huge overlap in what you can do at approximately the same rank from the two schools, and it's only when what you want falls outside that overlap that Harvard offers a big advantage.

That being said, if you don't know, Harvard is probably the safer bet.

And yes, big money (not just the RTK) could change the calculation.

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gilagarta
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Re: Public Interest - Harvard v. NYU?

Postby gilagarta » Thu Feb 11, 2010 11:22 am

I definitely have ambitions to "make it big" in the PI world, and I would like to do a prestigious clerkship. I'm also admittedly really type-A, so I'm not intimidated by a competitive atmosphere. I think I'm leaning toward Harvard over NYU if no money's in the equation...but I'm just not sure if the $/prestige of the RTK would outweigh the Harvard name.

FWIW I also finally got accepted to NYU...so at least I know I'm in. Now I'm waiting to hear about the RTK with fingers crossed. And then of course the whole things gets 10 times more complicated if Yale calls!

sophie316
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Re: Public Interest - Harvard v. NYU?

Postby sophie316 » Thu Feb 11, 2010 9:07 pm

mwazaumoja wrote:I want to dissent as a proud NYU student, but although many of us turned down Columbia for our stop in the Village, it is a rare person who turns down Harvard. The whole purpose of the RTK is to retain people who would have gone to Harvard, so I think you're best just sticking with what the general consensus has said.


I know someone that turned down Harvard without RTK(altho he did get some $$). He's never regretted it. I understand that for some the name is too big of a draw, but NYU is a fabulous school and being in NYC is a big plus if you want to get PI experience while in school.

lawyering
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Re: Public Interest - Harvard v. NYU?

Postby lawyering » Fri Mar 05, 2010 8:42 pm

What about Yale vs. RTK?? Yale's LRAP is pretty amazing.




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