Toughts on the T14 breakdown?

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im_blue
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Re: Toughts on the T14 breakdown?

Postby im_blue » Tue Feb 09, 2010 6:13 am

TheWire wrote:Y
H
S
C*
CN
MPv
D
N**
CG

*Denotes Columbia
**Explanation for separation from Duke: Being the 2nd best school in your own market is a disadvantage, especially when considering that Duke only has a small number of graduates that compete against each other in each market...many stay in the south, many go to NY, DC, and CA. I almost look at it like Northwestern-ers must compete against UofC and the rest of their class. The discrepancy between those two schools is much greater than that between Columbia and NYU FWIW.


Anti-Boalt trolling?

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ravens20
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Re: Toughts on the T14 breakdown?

Postby ravens20 » Tue Feb 09, 2010 6:15 am

Tofu wrote:
ravens20 wrote:As for Kobe playing in the All Star Game, I really hope he does. It just wouldn't be as competitive without him. (But then again I could care less about Kobe's long term health since I'm a Kings fan who is secretly rooting for the Cavs this year. Although I guess I'd want him to be healthy enough to lose with no excuses. :D )


For some reason, I think I prefer the Celtics winning to the Cavs winning. I can't stand the Cavs haha. I think LeBron as a player is amazing, but the team sometimes does stuff that bugs me (for instance, Mo Williams pretending to take pictures of LeBron after he gets fouled, or LeBron rapping at the end of that Cavs-Lakers game).


lolol, you hate the cavs more than the celtics?...and you call yourself a Lakers fan :D

Its funny though...one thing I've noticed in Laker fans is that its become this zero-sum thing where every time LeBron or the Cavs accomplish something, Lakers fans feel threatened both in terms of their team and Kobe's status as the world's best player. Sort of like how I'm sure all Patriots fans were rooting against Payton Manning on Sunday since a Manning victory would have likely definitively elevated him over Brady. That kind of thing creates instant rivalries....so even though the Cavs haven't played the Lakers in a 7 game series and even though Nike/media probably had a huge role in dramatizing it, I think its fair to say that there is a budding rivalry growing between those teams.

Tofu
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Re: Toughts on the T14 breakdown?

Postby Tofu » Tue Feb 09, 2010 6:16 am

im_blue wrote:
TheWire wrote:Y
H
S
C*
CN
MPv
D
N**
CG

*Denotes Columbia
**Explanation for separation from Duke: Being the 2nd best school in your own market is a disadvantage, especially when considering that Duke only has a small number of graduates that compete against each other in each market...many stay in the south, many go to NY, DC, and CA. I almost look at it like Northwestern-ers must compete against UofC and the rest of their class. The discrepancy between those two schools is much greater than that between Columbia and NYU FWIW.


Anti-Boalt trolling?


Haha, you just reminded me of that time when I forgot UCSC.

ravens20 wrote:Its funny though...one thing I've noticed in Laker fans is that its become this zero-sum thing where every time LeBron or the Cavs accomplish something, Lakers fans feel threatened both in terms of their team and Kobe's status as the world's best player.


I don't know about you, but it definitely feels like a zero-sum game to me right now!

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im_blue
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Re: Toughts on the T14 breakdown?

Postby im_blue » Tue Feb 09, 2010 6:19 am

ravens20 wrote:Its funny though...one thing I've noticed in Laker fans is that its become this zero-sum thing where every time LeBron or the Cavs accomplish something, Lakers fans feel threatened both in terms of their team and Kobe's status as the world's best player. Sort of like how I'm sure all Patriots fans were rooting against Payton Manning on Sunday since a Manning victory would have likely definitively elevated him over Brady. That kind of thing creates instant rivalries....so even though the Cavs haven't played the Lakers in a 7 game series and even though Nike/media probably had a huge role in dramatizing it, I think its fair to say that there is a budding rivalry growing between those teams.


Well, things like the NBA Championship and MVP are kind of zero-sum... 8)

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TheWire
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Re: Toughts on the T14 breakdown?

Postby TheWire » Tue Feb 09, 2010 6:23 am

im_blue wrote:
TheWire wrote:Y
H
S
C*
CN
MPv
D
N**
CG

*Denotes Columbia
**Explanation for separation from Duke: Being the 2nd best school in your own market is a disadvantage, especially when considering that Duke only has a small number of graduates that compete against each other in each market...many stay in the south, many go to NY, DC, and CA. I almost look at it like Northwestern-ers must compete against UofC and the rest of their class. The discrepancy between those two schools is much greater than that between Columbia and NYU FWIW.


Anti-Boalt trolling?


HAHA...I guess that's how I feel about Faculty Review...everyone knows that Berkeley is a Wildcard

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ravens20
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Re: Toughts on the T14 breakdown?

Postby ravens20 » Tue Feb 09, 2010 6:26 am

im_blue wrote:
ravens20 wrote:Its funny though...one thing I've noticed in Laker fans is that its become this zero-sum thing where every time LeBron or the Cavs accomplish something, Lakers fans feel threatened both in terms of their team and Kobe's status as the world's best player. Sort of like how I'm sure all Patriots fans were rooting against Payton Manning on Sunday since a Manning victory would have likely definitively elevated him over Brady. That kind of thing creates instant rivalries....so even though the Cavs haven't played the Lakers in a 7 game series and even though Nike/media probably had a huge role in dramatizing it, I think its fair to say that there is a budding rivalry growing between those teams.


Well, things like the NBA Championship and MVP are kind of zero-sum... 8)


Haha fair enough :D . I was referring more to the smaller accomplishments...like some ESPN writer will write about how LeBron's three point shot has vastly improved and you'll see a ton of Lakers fans trolling in response for no reason. But I guess when you put it into the context of the MVP race, it makes some sense.

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im_blue
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Re: Toughts on the T14 breakdown?

Postby im_blue » Tue Feb 09, 2010 6:36 am

ravens20 wrote:
im_blue wrote:
ravens20 wrote:Its funny though...one thing I've noticed in Laker fans is that its become this zero-sum thing where every time LeBron or the Cavs accomplish something, Lakers fans feel threatened both in terms of their team and Kobe's status as the world's best player. Sort of like how I'm sure all Patriots fans were rooting against Payton Manning on Sunday since a Manning victory would have likely definitively elevated him over Brady. That kind of thing creates instant rivalries....so even though the Cavs haven't played the Lakers in a 7 game series and even though Nike/media probably had a huge role in dramatizing it, I think its fair to say that there is a budding rivalry growing between those teams.


Well, things like the NBA Championship and MVP are kind of zero-sum... 8)


Haha fair enough :D . I was referring more to the smaller accomplishments...like some ESPN writer will write about how LeBron's three point shot has vastly improved and you'll see a ton of Lakers fans trolling in response for no reason. But I guess when you put it into the context of the MVP race, it makes some sense.


It's probably a bit bigger than the MVP race. I mean, nobody was hating on Steve Nash when he won it. I think it has more to do with being crowned "the next Jordan," whatever that means.

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Re: Toughts on the T14 breakdown?

Postby Tofu » Tue Feb 09, 2010 6:40 am

ravens20 wrote:Haha fair enough :D . I was referring more to the smaller accomplishments...like some ESPN writer will write about how LeBron's three point shot has vastly improved and you'll see a ton of Lakers fans trolling in response for no reason. But I guess when you put it into the context of the MVP race, it makes some sense.


I see lots of trolling on both sides. With any Kobe or LeBron-related article or video, there's a good chance that people will somehow start talking about Kobe vs. LeBron; I personally think that the hate against the Lakers or Cavs in articles or YouTube comments is funny to read.

im_blue wrote:It's probably a bit bigger than the MVP race. I mean, nobody was hating on Steve Nash when he won it. I think it has more to do with being crowned "the next Jordan," whatever that means.


Yeah, people like to argue whether the GOAT will still be Jordan or someone else (Kobe, LeBron, or someone else?) in 10 years or so.

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ravens20
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Re: Toughts on the T14 breakdown?

Postby ravens20 » Tue Feb 09, 2010 6:54 am

im_blue wrote:
ravens20 wrote:
im_blue wrote:Well, things like the NBA Championship and MVP are kind of zero-sum... 8)


Haha fair enough :D . I was referring more to the smaller accomplishments...like some ESPN writer will write about how LeBron's three point shot has vastly improved and you'll see a ton of Lakers fans trolling in response for no reason. But I guess when you put it into the context of the MVP race, it makes some sense.


It's probably a bit bigger than the MVP race. I mean, nobody was hating on Steve Nash when he won it. I think it has more to do with being crowned "the next Jordan," whatever that means.


You are right...it is bigger than the MVP race or even a championship. FWIW though, the "next Jordan" argument to me is not at all the issue. Kobe is the closest thing we will ever see to another Jordan; he has the same fadeaway, the cagey post game, the competitive fire, the similar body type, the refined footwork, etc. LeBron is just something else altogether...something new with the combination of an absurd body, ridiculous athleticism, and passing ability of a point guard. I think its more about being the world's best player...fans of each team want their guy to be that guy. The weird thing is that the age difference creates a very unique dynamic between these two: everyone knows that LeBron will overtake Kobe soon (in terms of current best player not overall career which is another argument altogether). Lakers fans just want to say that James still has a ways to go while Cavs fans (and anyone with common sense :wink: ) believe that LeBron has already passed Kobe.

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Re: Toughts on the T14 breakdown?

Postby ravens20 » Tue Feb 09, 2010 6:55 am

Tofu wrote:
ravens20 wrote:Haha fair enough :D . I was referring more to the smaller accomplishments...like some ESPN writer will write about how LeBron's three point shot has vastly improved and you'll see a ton of Lakers fans trolling in response for no reason. But I guess when you put it into the context of the MVP race, it makes some sense.


I see lots of trolling on both sides. With any Kobe or LeBron-related article or video, there's a good chance that people will somehow start talking about Kobe vs. LeBron; I personally think that the hate against the Lakers or Cavs in articles or YouTube comments is funny to read.

im_blue wrote:It's probably a bit bigger than the MVP race. I mean, nobody was hating on Steve Nash when he won it. I think it has more to do with being crowned "the next Jordan," whatever that means.


Yeah, people like to argue whether the GOAT will still be Jordan or someone else (Kobe, LeBron, or someone else?) in 10 years or so.


Absolutely it goes both ways... Cavs fans are just as bad. Cavs fans are like scorned lovers...I find it hilarious how they worry over whether LeBron will leave them.

As for the GOAT argument...Kobe has a ways to go to pass Jordan in terms of career accomplishments. LeBron has a long way to go to even catch Kobe.

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Re: Toughts on the T14 breakdown?

Postby observationalist » Tue Feb 09, 2010 7:08 am

stratocophic wrote:
los blancos wrote:(added a few more in just for kicks)
YHs
CCn (only because NYU's pull outside of NYC doesn't seem to be much better than the lower category)
MVPBDNc (like NYU, Cornell seems to have less national pull than the others in this category - e.g., Duke places people all over the South and in NYC/DC/CA)
G/UT
UCLA/Vandy/USC


FWIW, I've heard from a few sources that Vandy has better placement than GTown ITE. I'd guess that it's probably a combo of a manifestation of the smaller class size effect that Duke benefits from and the reported saturation of the DC market. Granted, he's a bit biased towards Vandy since he's a student, but observationalist has thrown out some pretty solid numbers regarding placement.


Appreciate the nod, strato. Of the bottom five in that list, three are "feeder" schools that place more than half their class into a single market and seemed to take it on the chin this year because of it. A fourth has a few major markets but so many students in the bottom half of their class that ITE doesn't know what to do with them. That leaves us, the only one of the five that will be publishing a list of 2L summer employment in a few months so people can actually see what happened. As far as the rest of the schools go, Duke is still the only one besides Vanderbilt to publish full lists of where the entire class is going. UVA does a nice job breaking down 1L/2L gigs as well, so props to them for getting things going. If only the Cali schools jumped on board and started publishing ITE information, I could make the claim that sunshine really does create transparency.

[I say that as we have yet another inch of snow in Nashville, which means the roads will likely be a mess tomorrow morning.]

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Re: Toughts on the T14 breakdown?

Postby Tofu » Tue Feb 09, 2010 7:25 am

ravens20 wrote:You are right...it is bigger than the MVP race or even a championship. FWIW though, the "next Jordan" argument to me is not at all the issue. Kobe is the closest thing we will ever see to another Jordan; he has the same fadeaway, the cagey post game, the competitive fire, the similar body type, the refined footwork, etc. LeBron is just something else altogether...something new with the combination of an absurd body, ridiculous athleticism, and passing ability of a point guard. I think its more about being the world's best player...fans of each team want their guy to be that guy. The weird thing is that the age difference creates a very unique dynamic between these two: everyone knows that LeBron will overtake Kobe soon (in terms of current best player not overall career which is another argument altogether). Lakers fans just want to say that James still has a ways to go while Cavs fans (and anyone with common sense :wink: ) believe that LeBron has already passed Kobe.


I personally think LeBron's an upgraded Magic haha

What I'm curious about is whether LeBron at age 29-33 (or whenever his crazy athleticism starts to go away) will be better than Kobe at age 29-33...

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Re: Toughts on the T14 breakdown?

Postby booboo » Tue Feb 09, 2010 8:02 am

This thread has gone to fail. I was expecting some serious rankings dizcussionz.

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Re: Toughts on the T14 breakdown?

Postby ravens20 » Tue Feb 09, 2010 8:15 am

booboo wrote:This thread has gone to fail. I was expecting some serious rankings dizcussionz.


There are about 1000000000 threads full of people trying to rank everything from lay prestige, to overall quality of institution, to most/least bros. Can't we enjoy some non-ranking discussion for a change? :D

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Re: Toughts on the T14 breakdown?

Postby 09042014 » Tue Feb 09, 2010 11:27 am

Veyron wrote:Why Uva over dook?

Not that I realy care about either school but... Uva places more and better clerks, has a higher us news ranking and stronger stats in the entering class and seems to win cross admit battles.


Duke has better v100 placement, has twice as many students (as a percent of class) as federal appellate clerks (in 2009), is tied in the USNWR rankings.

They are peer schools.

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Re: Toughts on the T14 breakdown?

Postby jnorsky » Tue Feb 09, 2010 11:35 am

UVA has hotter students....UVA wins

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Re: Toughts on the T14 breakdown?

Postby Stringer Bell » Tue Feb 09, 2010 11:40 am

Desert Fox wrote:Duke has better v100 placement, has twice as many students (as a percent of class) as federal appellate clerks (in 2009), is tied in the USNWR rankings.

They are peer schools.


Where can you find a breakdown of clerkships by school?

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Re: Toughts on the T14 breakdown?

Postby watts » Tue Feb 09, 2010 11:50 am

booboo wrote:This thread has gone to fail. I was expecting some serious rankings dizcussionz.


All threads eventually go to fail. If they gotta go, I'd much rather see them go by way of the NBA.

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Re: Toughts on the T14 breakdown?

Postby 09042014 » Tue Feb 09, 2010 12:34 pm

Stringer Bell wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Duke has better v100 placement, has twice as many students (as a percent of class) as federal appellate clerks (in 2009), is tied in the USNWR rankings.

They are peer schools.


Where can you find a breakdown of clerkships by school?


http://lawclerkaddict2009.blogspot.com/

There is a 2008 and 2007 site too. I don't think 2010 is ready yet.

NU, Duke and Cornell are massively helped by their small class size.

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Re: Toughts on the T14 breakdown?

Postby fortissimo » Tue Feb 09, 2010 12:50 pm

Stringer Bell wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Duke has better v100 placement, has twice as many students (as a percent of class) as federal appellate clerks (in 2009), is tied in the USNWR rankings.

They are peer schools.


Where can you find a breakdown of clerkships by school?


All Article III judges (basically federal judges, including the Supreme Court, COA, etc. )
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=75513&hilit=clerkships

--ImageRemoved--

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Re: Toughts on the T14 breakdown?

Postby stratocophic » Tue Feb 09, 2010 1:01 pm

observationalist wrote:
stratocophic wrote:
los blancos wrote:(added a few more in just for kicks)
YHs
CCn (only because NYU's pull outside of NYC doesn't seem to be much better than the lower category)
MVPBDNc (like NYU, Cornell seems to have less national pull than the others in this category - e.g., Duke places people all over the South and in NYC/DC/CA)
G/UT
UCLA/Vandy/USC


FWIW, I've heard from a few sources that Vandy has better placement than GTown ITE. I'd guess that it's probably a combo of a manifestation of the smaller class size effect that Duke benefits from and the reported saturation of the DC market. Granted, he's a bit biased towards Vandy since he's a student, but observationalist has thrown out some pretty solid numbers regarding placement.


Appreciate the nod, strato. Of the bottom five in that list, three are "feeder" schools that place more than half their class into a single market and seemed to take it on the chin this year because of it. A fourth has a few major markets but so many students in the bottom half of their class that ITE doesn't know what to do with them. That leaves us, the only one of the five that will be publishing a list of 2L summer employment in a few months so people can actually see what happened. As far as the rest of the schools go, Duke is still the only one besides Vanderbilt to publish full lists of where the entire class is going. UVA does a nice job breaking down 1L/2L gigs as well, so props to them for getting things going. If only the Cali schools jumped on board and started publishing ITE information, I could make the claim that sunshine really does create transparency.

[I say that as we have yet another inch of snow in Nashville, which means the roads will likely be a mess tomorrow morning.]


Hey, at least the sidewalks are manageable this time around... definitely could have used some salt last week. The mass amounts of snow evidently caught both city and school by surprise

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Re: Toughts on the T14 breakdown?

Postby RVP11 » Tue Feb 09, 2010 1:23 pm

Veyron wrote:TBF, in the Mountain West firm bios I've seen, the NYU, CHI, CLS people tend to have a lower class rank and less prestigious resume stuff than the MVP people, leading me to believe firms will consistantly go deeper at the T-6 even far away from NYC.


I'm calling BS on this.

A) I doubt you've really looked at many Mountain West firm bios.
B) The sample size of CCN attorneys in big Mountain West firms, who went there straight from law school will be extraordinarily small.
C) For many/most of CCNMVP, you have no way of discerning class rank from a firm bio. Because of this and the above problem with sample size, you can't do any real study, or even draw any reasonable non-empirical conclusions from what you see.
D) In the good economy, big firms in the Mountain West were going deeeeeep into pretty much all T14 schools. You're not going to find any/many T14 law review folks at these firms. So what are you trying to argue, that these firms took the top 95% from CCN but only the top 90% from MVP? :roll:

In conclusion: don't make stuff up.

CCN are, on the whole, better schools than MVP. But again, don't make stuff up.

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Re: Toughts on the T14 breakdown?

Postby AngryAvocado » Tue Feb 09, 2010 1:58 pm

JSUVA2012 wrote:
Veyron wrote:TBF, in the Mountain West firm bios I've seen, the NYU, CHI, CLS people tend to have a lower class rank and less prestigious resume stuff than the MVP people, leading me to believe firms will consistantly go deeper at the T-6 even far away from NYC.


I'm calling BS on this.

A) I doubt you've really looked at many Mountain West firm bios.
B) The sample size of CCN attorneys in big Mountain West firms, who went there straight from law school will be extraordinarily small.
C) For many/most of CCNMVP, you have no way of discerning class rank from a firm bio. Because of this and the above problem with sample size, you can't do any real study, or even draw any reasonable non-empirical conclusions from what you see.
D) In the good economy, big firms in the Mountain West were going deeeeeep into pretty much all T14 schools. You're not going to find any/many T14 law review folks at these firms. So what are you trying to argue, that these firms took the top 95% from CCN but only the top 90% from MVP? :roll:

In conclusion: don't make stuff up.

CCN are, on the whole, better schools than MVP. But again, don't make stuff up.


He never stated it as de facto truth; he just shared an observation and the conclusion he (personally) drew from that observation. Chillax.

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RVP11
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Re: Toughts on the T14 breakdown?

Postby RVP11 » Tue Feb 09, 2010 2:03 pm

AngryAvocado wrote:
He never stated it as de facto truth; he just shared an observation and the conclusion he (personally) drew from that observation. Chillax.


I'm questioning whether he ever did any actual research (even casual browsing of firm bios) before he made his conclusion. His reasoning and the conclusion he drew indicate that no research (again, "research" meaning even casual persual of firm bios) of any kind was actually done.

I have no problem with someone compiling data or even doing casual research and then drawing a conclusion from it. But when what someone says doesn't seem in accord with a number of important truths, there should be a presumption that the person didn't, in fact, do what they say they did. In other words, they're making stuff up.

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Re: Toughts on the T14 breakdown?

Postby NayBoer » Tue Feb 09, 2010 2:34 pm

Yeah, how can you divine class rank from firm bios? Unless it lists Order of the Coif or latin honors, I don't know how.

By Mountain West I assume we're mostly talking Denver and Phoenix, maybe Vegas.




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