Toughts on the T14 breakdown?

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woeisme
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Re: Toughts on the T14 breakdown?

Postby woeisme » Tue Feb 09, 2010 2:12 am

garfike wrote:HYS
CC
NMBVP
DN
GC

Before you flame me, this is just how I personally feel and wanted to here some thoughts from others.


yawn

woeisme
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Re: Toughts on the T14 breakdown?

Postby woeisme » Tue Feb 09, 2010 2:15 am

McNabb wrote:
garfike wrote:HYS
CC
NMBVP
DN
GC

Before you flame me, this is just how I personally feel and wanted to here some thoughts from others.


From everything I've ever seen this is a better picture of what it looks like if you stop valuing one particular market over all others (cough cough NYC) and take into account all of the schools ability nationwide. I might do something like make Stanford and Penn lowercase letters for each of their groups. Stanford because it's rep does seem to wane a bit outside of Cali, while H and Y's reputations don't wane anywhere. In addition, H and Y really seem to have S when it comes to Supreme Court clerkships and COA clerkships outside of California plus academia. Penn because it seems to be slightly behind NMBV when it comes to it's reputation amongst lawyers and outside of the northeast. I totally agree with putting Duke and NU ahead of GULC and Cornell. Duke and NU have been significantly out placing those two schools enough for them to merit a higher spot than GULC and Cornell. This ordering also comes closer to aligning with the rep scores that US News releases as well.


wrong

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Stringer Bell
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Re: Toughts on the T14 breakdown?

Postby Stringer Bell » Tue Feb 09, 2010 2:18 am

Desert Fox wrote:I was being dyslexic. I mean to ask why he thought UVa was better than Duke. Because I see them as peer schools.


I don't disagree with the contention, but I think the perception here mainly has to do with prestige amongst the legal profession. UVA has a lawyer/judge reputation ranking on par with CC.

09042014
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Re: Toughts on the T14 breakdown?

Postby 09042014 » Tue Feb 09, 2010 2:25 am

Stringer Bell wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:I was being dyslexic. I mean to ask why he thought UVa was better than Duke. Because I see them as peer schools.


I don't disagree with the contention, but I think the perception here mainly has to do with prestige amongst the legal profession. UVA has a lawyer/judge reputation ranking on par with CC.


Which for some reason doesn't translate into better hiring or clerking? Why is that? Because USNWR reputation surveys are poorly executed? After all its only a 31% response rate. Because rep surveys measure something different than what employers are looking?

I don't know.

I personally only care about results. But others may value other aspects, like faculty.

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Veyron
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Re: Toughts on the T14 breakdown?

Postby Veyron » Tue Feb 09, 2010 3:23 am

Why Uva over dook?

Not that I realy care about either school but... Uva places more and better clerks, has a higher us news ranking and stronger stats in the entering class and seems to win cross admit battles.

NYCornellian
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Re: Toughts on the T14 breakdown?

Postby NYCornellian » Tue Feb 09, 2010 3:50 am

Y
HS
CCN
PBMV
CDNG

The Ivies rock!

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ravens20
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Re: Toughts on the T14 breakdown?

Postby ravens20 » Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:01 am

garfike wrote:HYS
CC
NMBVP
DN
GC

Before you flame me, this is just how I personally feel and wanted to here some thoughts from others.


Without looking at your previous posts I am nearly 100 percent sure that you are going to UVA (or if not, Michigan) since UVA posters on this site seem to be obsessed with putting NYU in the MVPB tier. For the life of me I have no idea why, but they start countless threads about it or post it in completely unrelated threads.

All such posters seem to ignore V100 placement, NLJ250 placement, Leiter's elite firm index, hiring rates for median students (i.e. how far into the class biglaw firms go), etc.

V100 summer associate placement (2006):
http://lawfirmaddict.blogspot.com/2006/ ... ement.html
V100 placement divided by percentage of students working in firms (as of 2008): (does not include HYS)
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=24207
Leiter's elite firm placement rankings (also as of 2008):
http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2008job_biglaw.shtml

Now all of these factors may have a big city bias, but that hardly seems to prevent schools like Duke from doing comparatively better than UVA or Michigan in these measures. Not to mention that a good chunk of the 15 firms Leiter refers to are either headquartered or have offices in Washington DC (UVa's area of strength) and UVA places the worst out of any T14 besides Berkeley in these elite firms.

Instead, pro-UVA posters focus on lawyer/judge scores (while conveniently leaving out the peer rep scores) and how UVA has historically had a marginally better or equal score to NYU. Now I'm not dismissing that metric and perhaps it can be used to point out why UVA grads get great clerkships. However, if that metric really demonstrated how the legal community viewed UVA then why is that NYU grads get hired at better firms and at a higher rate in biglaw? If it is just because NYU is in New York, then how do you explain Duke's numbers? As for how national the schools are, these are the top schools - placement nationally shouldn't be a problem given some connection or demonstrated interest in a region. I know for a fact that Columbia, NYU, and Chicago all place very well in California (I won't speak for Virginia here because I have no idea how its placement is on the west coast although I assume it is still pretty strong). As for how the schools are doing in the economy...according to posters on this site and 2 students that I know at NYU Law, students at and even below median are still landing V100 gigs (although with less callbacks than normal). Again, I can't speak for UVA here but students at CCN seem to be doing well considering how the economy is going.

Let me be perfectly clear here though...I don't think that the differences between the schools are that great and frankly this whole tier system probably creates arbitrary distinctions between what are essentially 14 damn good law schools. But if you insist on referring to tiers within the top 14 schools, evidence seems to show that there is more separating NYU from UVA than there is between UVA and Northwestern/Duke.
Last edited by ravens20 on Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:34 am, edited 3 times in total.

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los blancos
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Re: Toughts on the T14 breakdown?

Postby los blancos » Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:12 am

Veyron wrote:Why Uva over dook?

Not that I realy care about either school but... Uva places more and better clerks, has a higher us news ranking and stronger stats in the entering class and seems to win cross admit battles.


lolz

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los blancos
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Re: Toughts on the T14 breakdown?

Postby los blancos » Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:15 am

(added a few more in just for kicks)
YHs
CCn (only because NYU's pull outside of NYC doesn't seem to be much better than the lower category)
MVPBDNc (like NYU, Cornell seems to have less national pull than the others in this category - e.g., Duke places people all over the South and in NYC/DC/CA)
G/UT
UCLA/Vandy/USC

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TheWire
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Re: Toughts on the T14 breakdown?

Postby TheWire » Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:25 am

Y
H
S
C*
CN
MPv
D
N**
CG

*Denotes Columbia
**Explanation for separation from Duke: Being the 2nd best school in your own market is a disadvantage, especially when considering that Duke only has a small number of graduates that compete against each other in each market...many stay in the south, many go to NY, DC, and CA. I almost look at it like Northwestern-ers must compete against UofC and the rest of their class. The discrepancy between those two schools is much greater than that between Columbia and NYU FWIW.

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los blancos
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Re: Toughts on the T14 breakdown?

Postby los blancos » Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:29 am

TheWire wrote:**Explanation for separation from Duke: Being the 2nd best school in your own market is a disadvantage, especially when considering that Duke only has a small number of graduates that compete against each other in each market...many stay in the south, many go to NY, DC, and CA. I almost look at it like Northwestern-ers must compete against UofC and the rest of their class. The discrepancy between those two schools is much greater than that between Columbia and NYU FWIW.


I think this makes more sense ITE than it would have during the boom years. UChicago competition or not, NU's biglaw placement when things were going well was absolutely spectacular.

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TheWire
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Re: Toughts on the T14 breakdown?

Postby TheWire » Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:30 am

los blancos wrote:
TheWire wrote:**Explanation for separation from Duke: Being the 2nd best school in your own market is a disadvantage, especially when considering that Duke only has a small number of graduates that compete against each other in each market...many stay in the south, many go to NY, DC, and CA. I almost look at it like Northwestern-ers must compete against UofC and the rest of their class. The discrepancy between those two schools is much greater than that between Columbia and NYU FWIW.


I think this makes more sense ITE than it would have during the boom years. UChicago competition or not, NU's biglaw placement when things were going well was absolutely spectacular.


If we weren't ITE, HYS would remain a block because they'd all be 100% sure things in pretty much everything...right?

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ravens20
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Re: Toughts on the T14 breakdown?

Postby ravens20 » Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:32 am

TheWire wrote:Y
H
S
C*
CN
MPv
D
N**
CG

*Denotes Columbia
**Explanation for separation from Duke: Being the 2nd best school in your own market is a disadvantage, especially when considering that Duke only has a small number of graduates that compete against each other in each market...many stay in the south, many go to NY, DC, and CA. I almost look at it like Northwestern-ers must compete against UofC and the rest of their class. The discrepancy between those two schools is much greater than that between Columbia and NYU FWIW.


If I had to rank schools, I'd go with something like this for the most part. Columbia (with elite firm placement, Ivy League, great LRAP program) seems to be marginally better than NYU (which beats Columbia in public interest) and Chicago (which beats Columbia in academia). I do think however that you are underselling Duke (and even Northwestern), which has fantastic placement figures.

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TheWire
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Re: Toughts on the T14 breakdown?

Postby TheWire » Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:35 am

ravens20 wrote:
TheWire wrote:Y
H
S
C*
CN
MPv
D
N**
CG

*Denotes Columbia
**Explanation for separation from Duke: Being the 2nd best school in your own market is a disadvantage, especially when considering that Duke only has a small number of graduates that compete against each other in each market...many stay in the south, many go to NY, DC, and CA. I almost look at it like Northwestern-ers must compete against UofC and the rest of their class. The discrepancy between those two schools is much greater than that between Columbia and NYU FWIW.


If I had to rank schools, I'd go with something like this for the most part. Columbia (with elite firm placement, Ivy League, great LRAP program) seems to be marginally better than NYU (which beats Columbia in public interest) and Chicago (which beats Columbia in academia). I do think however that you are underselling Duke (and even Northwestern), which has fantastic placement figures.


FWIW, I considered MVPD but I didn't want to suffer the backlash of "Duke Troll! Duke Troll!" I think Duke is severely hated on by the TLS crowd. I'm not trying to undersell any of the programs, just "rank" them

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stratocophic
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Re: Toughts on the T14 breakdown?

Postby stratocophic » Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:38 am

los blancos wrote:(added a few more in just for kicks)
YHs
CCn (only because NYU's pull outside of NYC doesn't seem to be much better than the lower category)
MVPBDNc (like NYU, Cornell seems to have less national pull than the others in this category - e.g., Duke places people all over the South and in NYC/DC/CA)
G/UT
UCLA/Vandy/USC


FWIW, I've heard from a few sources that Vandy has better placement than GTown ITE. I'd guess that it's probably a combo of a manifestation of the smaller class size effect that Duke benefits from and the reported saturation of the DC market. Granted, he's a bit biased towards Vandy since he's a student, but observationalist has thrown out some pretty solid numbers regarding placement.

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Re: Toughts on the T14 breakdown?

Postby Tofu » Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:42 am

TheWire wrote:Y
H
S
C*
CN
MPv
D
N**
CG

*Denotes Columbia



I feel like Chicago and Columbia are closer to each other than Chicago and NYU are

more important: 21 points, 19 rebounds, 8 assists, 5 blocks!

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TheWire
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Re: Toughts on the T14 breakdown?

Postby TheWire » Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:43 am

Tofu wrote:
TheWire wrote:Y
H
S
C*
CN
MPv
D
N**
CG

*Denotes Columbia



I feel like Chicago and Columbia are closer to each other than Chicago and NYU are

more important: 21 points, 19 rebounds, 8 assists, 5 blocks!


I like the fact that he admitted he "wasn't effective." When Pau goes 8-20, it really is an inefficient performance. The Lakers will be better for realizing they can play without kobe...HTH

EDIT: CCN seriously are the same...they each of advantages and are respected pretty similarly (in the legal field) IMHO

Tofu
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Re: Toughts on the T14 breakdown?

Postby Tofu » Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:48 am

TheWire wrote:I like the fact that he admitted he "wasn't effective." When Pau goes 8-20, it really is an inefficient performance. The Lakers will be better for realizing they can play without kobe...HTH


Do you think Kobe should play the ASG if he feels like he can play?

I also hope Shannon wins! I'm still disappointed that LeBron won't be participating; Shannon vs. LeBron would have been amazing.

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TheWire
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Re: Toughts on the T14 breakdown?

Postby TheWire » Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:52 am

Tofu wrote:
TheWire wrote:I like the fact that he admitted he "wasn't effective." When Pau goes 8-20, it really is an inefficient performance. The Lakers will be better for realizing they can play without kobe...HTH


Do you think Kobe should play the ASG if he feels like he can play?

I also hope Shannon wins! I'm still disappointed that LeBron won't be participating; Shannon vs. LeBron would have been amazing.


No...but I'm an invested Laker fan. I would sit him out 'till after and give him over a week of rest. He can use it; but, Kobe has a reputation to maintain and he wouldn't play long anyways. It would just be for novelty sake if he plays...not competitive sake, even with Kobe.

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ravens20
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Re: Toughts on the T14 breakdown?

Postby ravens20 » Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:54 am

Tofu wrote:
TheWire wrote:I like the fact that he admitted he "wasn't effective." When Pau goes 8-20, it really is an inefficient performance. The Lakers will be better for realizing they can play without kobe...HTH


Do you think Kobe should play the ASG if he feels like he can play?

I also hope Shannon wins! I'm still disappointed that LeBron won't be participating; Shannon vs. LeBron would have been amazing.


Not that this was directed at me, but I thought I'd chip in being a huge hoops head. I'm also very disappointed LeBron pulled out of the contest. My dark horse pick for the dunk contest: Gerald Wallace... that man can fly and got robbed years ago when they forced dunkers to do classic dunks.

As for Kobe playing in the All Star Game, I really hope he does. It just wouldn't be the same without him. (But then again I could care less about Kobe's long term health since I'm a Kings fan who is secretly rooting for the Cavs this year. Although I guess I'd want him to be healthy enough to lose with no excuses. :D )

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TheWire
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Re: Toughts on the T14 breakdown?

Postby TheWire » Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:58 am

ravens20 wrote:
Tofu wrote:
TheWire wrote:I like the fact that he admitted he "wasn't effective." When Pau goes 8-20, it really is an inefficient performance. The Lakers will be better for realizing they can play without kobe...HTH


Do you think Kobe should play the ASG if he feels like he can play?

I also hope Shannon wins! I'm still disappointed that LeBron won't be participating; Shannon vs. LeBron would have been amazing.


Not that this was directed at me, but I thought I'd chip in being a huge hoops head. I'm also very disappointed LeBron pulled out of the contest. My dark horse pick for the dunk contest: Gerald Wallace... that man can fly and got robbed years ago when they forced dunkers to do classic dunks.

As for Kobe playing in the All Star Game, I really hope he does. It just wouldn't be as competitive without him. (But then again I could care less about Kobe's long term health since I'm a Kings fan who is secretly rooting for the Cavs this year)


Talk about wearing your Bandwaggin'ness on your sleeve...easy to root for the best, I suppose, when your team gets beat by the Lakers any year they're any good... :wink:

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ravens20
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Re: Toughts on the T14 breakdown?

Postby ravens20 » Tue Feb 09, 2010 6:00 am

TheWire wrote:Talk about wearing your Bandwaggin'ness on your sleeve...easy to root for the best, I suppose, when your team gets beat by the Lakers any year they're any good... :wink:


I'm not even going to bring up Game 6 of that 2001 series. I'll never forget when Mike Bibby's nose somehow fouled Kobe Bryant's elbow.

galahad85
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Re: Toughts on the T14 breakdown?

Postby galahad85 » Tue Feb 09, 2010 6:03 am

.
Last edited by galahad85 on Sun Mar 07, 2010 2:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

Tofu
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Re: Toughts on the T14 breakdown?

Postby Tofu » Tue Feb 09, 2010 6:03 am

ravens20 wrote:As for Kobe playing in the All Star Game, I really hope he does. It just wouldn't be as competitive without him. (But then again I could care less about Kobe's long term health since I'm a Kings fan who is secretly rooting for the Cavs this year. Although I guess I'd want him to be healthy enough to lose with no excuses. :D )


For some reason, I think I prefer the Celtics winning to the Cavs winning. I can't stand the Cavs haha. I think LeBron as a player is amazing, but the team sometimes does stuff that bugs me (for instance, Mo Williams pretending to take pictures of LeBron after he gets fouled, or LeBron rapping at the end of that Cavs-Lakers game).

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TheWire
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Re: Toughts on the T14 breakdown?

Postby TheWire » Tue Feb 09, 2010 6:06 am

ravens20 wrote:
TheWire wrote:Talk about wearing your Bandwaggin'ness on your sleeve...easy to root for the best, I suppose, when your team gets beat by the Lakers any year they're any good... :wink:


I'm not even going to bring up Game 6 of that 2001 series. I'll never forget when Mike Bibby's nose somehow fouled Kobe Bryant's elbow.


Neither will I...but I feel I remember the event much more fondly than you do




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