UC Berkeley in decline?

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jawsthegreat
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Re: UC Berkeley in decline?

Postby jawsthegreat » Tue Feb 09, 2010 1:22 am

McNabb wrote:
Kohinoor wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Yes. I also think DNC fit in with MVP as well but that is heresy around here.

I personally feel the T14 tiers are
HYS
C
CNMVPBDNGC


HYS
CC
NMBVp
DN
GC


This is generally how I think about it.

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im_blue
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Re: UC Berkeley in decline?

Postby im_blue » Tue Feb 09, 2010 1:23 am

Kohinoor wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Yes. I also think DNC fit in with MVP as well but that is heresy around here.

I personally feel the T14 tiers are
HYS
C
CNMVPBDNGC


Y (undisputed #1)
H (weaker numbers and yield than Y)
S (weaker numbers and less national than HY)
---
CC
N (weaker placement than CC)
---
MVP
B (weaker non-CA placement than MVP)
---
DN (strong placement on par with MVPB)
C (weakest numbers of the T14)
G (weakest placement of the T14)

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Kohinoor
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Re: UC Berkeley in decline?

Postby Kohinoor » Tue Feb 09, 2010 1:34 am

im_blue wrote:
Kohinoor wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Yes. I also think DNC fit in with MVP as well but that is heresy around here.

I personally feel the T14 tiers are
HYS
C
CNMVPBDNGC


Y (undisputed #1)
H (weaker numbers and yield than Y)
S (weaker numbers and less national than HY)
---
CC
N (weaker placement than CC)
---
MVP
B (weaker non-CA placement than MVP)
---
HYS: placement not really distinguishable outside of top end boutiques
DN (strong placement on par with MVPB)
C (weakest numbers of the T14)
G (weakest placement of the T14)

C: universally regarded as a TTT in decline
N: The problem with you putting N up there is that its hard to tease apart how much of their placement is just NYU students putting in 35/35 bids at NY firms.
B: may have slightly weaker overall placement but is a CA powerhouse that is acquiring greater and greater renown
DN: aggressive new marketing/capital campaigns will bolster their rankings in the coming years. N's marketing of itself as a business law school has it poised to oust C.
C: Ivy status and the accompanying networking opportunities and contacts cause greater placement and networking opportunities than an arbitrary USNWR ranking can convey. Many fresh C grads head into ibanking or consulting work.
G: places more grads into top firms by straight numbers than most other T14s

so....
HYS
C
CNMVPBDNGC

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McNabb
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Re: UC Berkeley in decline?

Postby McNabb » Tue Feb 09, 2010 1:42 am

Kohinoor wrote:The problem with you putting N up there is that its hard to tease apart how much of their placement is just NYU students putting in 35/35 bids at NYU firms.


Did you mean to say NYC? If you did you just hit the nail on the head--- and mentioned something that is astoundingly overlooked on here. Putting NYU ahead of MBVP for outdoing those schools in NYU's home market is strange (especially when it's home market is the easiest to break into), but commonplace on here. It's really akin to saying that Boalt is better than the rest of the non HYS top 10 because of it's Cali placement.

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chadwick218
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Re: UC Berkeley in decline?

Postby chadwick218 » Tue Feb 09, 2010 1:44 am

im_blue wrote:
Y (undisputed #1)
H (weaker numbers and yield than Y)
S (weaker numbers and less national than HY)
---
CC
N (weaker placement than CC)
---
MVP
B (weaker non-CA placement than MVP)
---
DN (strong placement on par with MVPB)
C (weakest numbers of the T14)
G (weakest placement of the T14)


I think that this is accurate ... I also think that the smaller class sizes at both NU and Duke are also very beneficial in terms of placement.

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prezidentv8
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Re: UC Berkeley in decline?

Postby prezidentv8 » Tue Feb 09, 2010 1:45 am

chadwick218 wrote:
im_blue wrote:
Y (undisputed #1)
H (weaker numbers and yield than Y)
S (weaker numbers and less national than HY)
---
CC
N (weaker placement than CC)
---
MVP
B (weaker non-CA placement than MVP)
---
DN (strong placement on par with MVPB)
C (weakest numbers of the T14)
G (weakest placement of the T14)


I think that this is accurate ... I also think that the smaller class sizes at both NU and Duke are also very beneficial in terms of placement.


I love Duke.

09042014
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Re: UC Berkeley in decline?

Postby 09042014 » Tue Feb 09, 2010 2:00 am

chadwick218 wrote:
im_blue wrote:
Y (undisputed #1)
H (weaker numbers and yield than Y)
S (weaker numbers and less national than HY)
---
CC
N (weaker placement than CC)
---
MVP
B (weaker non-CA placement than MVP)
---
DN (strong placement on par with MVPB)
C (weakest numbers of the T14)
G (weakest placement of the T14)


I think that this is accurate ... I also think that the smaller class sizes at both NU and Duke are also very beneficial in terms of placement.


Small class size is a huge advantage.

Also NU is in Chicago, the second largest legal market, and between it and UChicago, less than 500 T14 law students are minted inside Chicago every year. And many of those are trying for DC, LA, and NYC. That is a significant home field advantage.

Meanwhile most T14's aim towards NYC, LA and/or DC.

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amputatedbrain
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Re: UC Berkeley in decline?

Postby amputatedbrain » Tue Feb 09, 2010 2:09 am

Dignan wrote:
amputatedbrain wrote:I've heard from several different people, some of them just other 0L's, but also a well accomplished law professor I know, seem to be of the mind that Berkeley is a school in decline.

What was the argument of the law professor? I assume he had reasons for his claim that Berkeley is "in decline."


His argument was mostly the dismal state of the UC budget, and his opinion (not sure if it's substantiated) that B is/will be hemorrhaging some of its best faculty.

Also, I was hoping this thread wouldn't devolve into ANOTHER thread on T14 breakdown

Tofu
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Re: UC Berkeley in decline?

Postby Tofu » Tue Feb 09, 2010 2:17 am

Doritos wrote:
Tofu wrote:if he puts C by itself, then he probably means chicago


Really? I always thought the consensus was that Columbia was the best of the CCN group. I'm not saying I believe that just that if someone on this board were to single out one of that group to be superior I figured it would be Columbia


I just thought about how some people argue that Chicago is the closest to HYS out of the CCN group (its clerkship/academia placement is great, and consensus seems to be that its biglaw is closer to Columbia's than NYU's, I think?). Most people, even the ones who think Columbia is the best choice outside of CCN, usually still put it in the same sub-tier as Chicago.
Last edited by Tofu on Tue Feb 09, 2010 2:21 am, edited 3 times in total.

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im_blue
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Re: UC Berkeley in decline?

Postby im_blue » Tue Feb 09, 2010 2:19 am

Tofu wrote:
Doritos wrote:
Tofu wrote:if he puts C by itself, then he probably means chicago


Really? I always thought the consensus was that Columbia was the best of the CCN group. I'm not saying I believe that just that if someone on this board were to single out one of that group to be superior I figured it would be Columbia


I just thought about how some people argue that Chicago is the closest to HYS out of the CCN group (its clerkship/academia placement is great, and its biglaw closer to Columbia's than NYU's, I think?). Most people who think Columbia is the best out of CCN usually put it in the same sub-tier as Chicago.


Columbia is slightly better for biglaw, and Chicago is slightly better for clerkships/academia.

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lebob
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Re: UC Berkeley in decline?

Postby lebob » Tue Feb 09, 2010 2:22 am

i came into this thread looking for information about "Berkeley's Decline" but was surprised to find nothing but peoples' personal rankings.

Tofu
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Re: UC Berkeley in decline?

Postby Tofu » Tue Feb 09, 2010 2:43 am

im_blue wrote:
Tofu wrote:
Doritos wrote:
Tofu wrote:if he puts C by itself, then he probably means chicago


Really? I always thought the consensus was that Columbia was the best of the CCN group. I'm not saying I believe that just that if someone on this board were to single out one of that group to be superior I figured it would be Columbia


I just thought about how some people argue that Chicago is the closest to HYS out of the CCN group (its clerkship/academia placement is great, and its biglaw closer to Columbia's than NYU's, I think?). Most people who think Columbia is the best out of CCN usually put it in the same sub-tier as Chicago.


Columbia is slightly better for biglaw, and Chicago is slightly better for clerkships/academia.


Would you say Chicago is only slightly better? It seems like Chicago is a lot better for clerkships/academia. How much of a role do you think location plays for the clerkship factor?

I'm curious: which school would you guess someone is referring to if he or she put C in a tier all by itself? (ignoring the post where Kohinoor explained!)

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gochrisgo
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Re: UC Berkeley in decline?

Postby gochrisgo » Tue Feb 09, 2010 3:03 am

_
Last edited by gochrisgo on Mon Feb 15, 2010 5:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Chicklets
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Re: UC Berkeley in decline?

Postby Chicklets » Tue Feb 09, 2010 3:08 am

amputatedbrain wrote:
Dignan wrote:
amputatedbrain wrote:I've heard from several different people, some of them just other 0L's, but also a well accomplished law professor I know, seem to be of the mind that Berkeley is a school in decline.

What was the argument of the law professor? I assume he had reasons for his claim that Berkeley is "in decline."


His argument was mostly the dismal state of the UC budget, and his opinion (not sure if it's substantiated) that B is/will be hemorrhaging some of its best faculty.

Also, I was hoping this thread wouldn't devolve into ANOTHER thread on T14 breakdown



Any thoughts as to why faculty would be abandoning ship? Would that be budget related? I can imagine that some really bright prospective students would choose elsewhere due to costs and that might make the ratings decline.

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im_blue
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Re: UC Berkeley in decline?

Postby im_blue » Tue Feb 09, 2010 3:11 am

Tofu wrote:I'm curious: which school would you guess someone is referring to if he or she put C in a tier all by itself? (ignoring the post where Kohinoor explained!)


I'd go with Columbia, since the vast majority of law students are aiming for biglaw. Columbia also has a higher LSAT median.

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Dignan
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Re: UC Berkeley in decline?

Postby Dignan » Tue Feb 09, 2010 3:42 am

amputatedbrain wrote:
Dignan wrote:
amputatedbrain wrote:I've heard from several different people, some of them just other 0L's, but also a well accomplished law professor I know, seem to be of the mind that Berkeley is a school in decline.

What was the argument of the law professor? I assume he had reasons for his claim that Berkeley is "in decline."


His argument was mostly the dismal state of the UC budget, and his opinion (not sure if it's substantiated) that B is/will be hemorrhaging some of its best faculty.

The California state budget in general, and the UC budget in particular, is in bad shape. In response to this, Berkeley Law is basically becoming a private school. Although I am disappointed by that development, I'm not sure that the switch will necessarily lead to a decline. Berkeley is easily the second best law school west of the Mississippi, and it maintains significant prestige within the very active West Coast tech sector. These qualities aren't going away just because tax payer funding is being replaced by higher student fees. And the law professors will be paid just as well as before.

The real worry for Berkeley is that California residents who are strong students will now elect to attend school elsewhere. Ten years ago, Berkeley Law was able to attract students who got into YHSCC because of the exceedingly low cost of attendance at Berkeley. To keep up, I think Berkeley is going to have to start offering merit scholarships to stronger applicants. I'm wondering if they're going to start doing so this cycle. We'll see.

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im_blue
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Re: UC Berkeley in decline?

Postby im_blue » Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:14 am

Dignan wrote:
amputatedbrain wrote:
Dignan wrote:
amputatedbrain wrote:I've heard from several different people, some of them just other 0L's, but also a well accomplished law professor I know, seem to be of the mind that Berkeley is a school in decline.

What was the argument of the law professor? I assume he had reasons for his claim that Berkeley is "in decline."


His argument was mostly the dismal state of the UC budget, and his opinion (not sure if it's substantiated) that B is/will be hemorrhaging some of its best faculty.

The California state budget in general, and the UC budget in particular, is in bad shape. In response to this, Berkeley Law is basically becoming a private school. Although I am disappointed by that development, I'm not sure that the switch will necessarily lead to a decline. Berkeley is easily the second best law school west of the Mississippi, and it maintains significant prestige within the very active West Coast tech sector. These qualities aren't going away just because tax payer funding is being replaced by higher student fees. And the law professors will be paid just as well as before.

The real worry for Berkeley is that California residents who are strong students will now elect to attend school elsewhere. Ten years ago, Berkeley Law was able to attract students who got into YHSCC because of the exceedingly low cost of attendance at Berkeley. To keep up, I think Berkeley is going to have to start offering merit scholarships to stronger applicants. I'm wondering if they're going to start doing so this cycle. We'll see.


I believe Berkeley Law's dean has specifically stated that one of the goals for the extra tuition money was to recruit higher quality students and faculty. Basically the weaker students pay a little more to subsidize the top of the class, which increases the quality of the student body for everyone.

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ravens20
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Re: UC Berkeley in decline?

Postby ravens20 » Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:48 am

McNabb wrote:
Did you mean to say NYC? If you did you just hit the nail on the head--- and mentioned something that is astoundingly overlooked on here. Putting NYU ahead of MBVP for outdoing those schools in NYU's home market is strange (especially when it's home market is the easiest to break into), but commonplace on here. It's really akin to saying that Boalt is better than the rest of the non HYS top 10 because of it's Cali placement.


It isn't NYU's placement in the city that makes it better for biglaw than MVPB but its placement in biglaw overall. Think of it like this...if you are trying to land a biglaw gig only two things really matter: how easy it is to get a biglaw job (i.e. at what rank do you have to be to land such a job) and how elite the firm is that hires you. By both measures, NYU outplaces MVPB (see the other thread about t14 rankings where I've posted the stats). It really doesn't matter that the greatest portion of those jobs are in New York City; the fact is that if you want a biglaw job you have a higher chance of landing such a job and that job being at an elite firm as an NYU law grad than at MVPB. And lets not pretend that NYU grads are limited to NYC...they seem to do fine in other markets even on the West Coast.

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im_blue
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Re: UC Berkeley in decline?

Postby im_blue » Tue Feb 09, 2010 6:16 am

ravens20 wrote:
McNabb wrote:
Did you mean to say NYC? If you did you just hit the nail on the head--- and mentioned something that is astoundingly overlooked on here. Putting NYU ahead of MBVP for outdoing those schools in NYU's home market is strange (especially when it's home market is the easiest to break into), but commonplace on here. It's really akin to saying that Boalt is better than the rest of the non HYS top 10 because of it's Cali placement.


It isn't NYU's placement in the city that makes it better for biglaw than MVPB but its placement in biglaw overall. Think of it like this...if you are trying to land a biglaw gig only two things really matter: how easy it is to get a biglaw job (i.e. at what rank do you have to be to land such a job) and how elite the firm is that hires you. By both measures, NYU outplaces MVPB (see the other thread about t14 rankings where I've posted the stats). It really doesn't matter that the greatest portion of those jobs are in New York City; the fact is that if you want a biglaw job you have a higher chance of landing such a job and that job being at an elite firm as an NYU law grad than at MVPB. And lets not pretend that NYU grads are limited to NYC...they seem to do fine in other markets even on the West Coast.


TITCR. NYU outplaces MVP and more or less matches Boalt in California (assuming ties to the state). I prefer CC to N, but I'd definitely take N over MVPB.

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ravens20
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Re: UC Berkeley in decline?

Postby ravens20 » Tue Feb 09, 2010 6:20 am

im_blue wrote:
Kohinoor wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Yes. I also think DNC fit in with MVP as well but that is heresy around here.

I personally feel the T14 tiers are
HYS
C
CNMVPBDNGC


Y (undisputed #1)
H (weaker numbers and yield than Y)
S (weaker numbers and less national than HY)
---
CC
N (weaker placement than CC)
---
MVP
B (weaker non-CA placement than MVP)
---
DN (strong placement on par with MVPB)
C (weakest numbers of the T14)
G (weakest placement of the T14)


This is a good breakdown...though I wonder about Duke and Northwestern...the placement of their graduates (at least pre-economic slump) into biglaw has historically been really impressive.

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im_blue
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Re: UC Berkeley in decline?

Postby im_blue » Tue Feb 09, 2010 6:29 am

ravens20 wrote:
im_blue wrote:
Kohinoor wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Yes. I also think DNC fit in with MVP as well but that is heresy around here.

I personally feel the T14 tiers are
HYS
C
CNMVPBDNGC


Y (undisputed #1)
H (weaker numbers and yield than Y)
S (weaker numbers and less national than HY)
---
CC
N (weaker placement than CC)
---
MVP
B (weaker non-CA placement than MVP)
---
DN (strong placement on par with MVPB)
C (weakest numbers of the T14)
G (weakest placement of the T14)


This is a good breakdown...though I wonder about Duke and Northwestern...the placement of their graduates (at least pre-economic slump) into biglaw has historically been really impressive.


Yeah, my speculation is that DNCG have taken more of an ITE hit (Duke because of lower reputation than MVPB, NU because of competition with Chicago, Cornell because of NYC focus, and GULC because of large class size).

td6624
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Re: UC Berkeley in decline?

Postby td6624 » Tue Feb 09, 2010 12:05 pm

This thread made my head hurt a little.

eth3n
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Re: UC Berkeley in decline?

Postby eth3n » Tue Feb 09, 2010 12:46 pm

berkeley > stanford on last year's july bar...

is this thread just referring to the tuition increases? (Berkeley used to be best bang for buck outside HYS)

fortissimo
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Re: UC Berkeley in decline?

Postby fortissimo » Tue Feb 09, 2010 12:53 pm

eth3n wrote:berkeley > stanford on last year's july bar...

is this thread just referring to the tuition increases? (Berkeley used to be best bang for buck outside HYS)


Don't TTTs have really high bar passage rates? Bar passage rates don't mean much in determining quality of grads.

On the flip side, now Berkeley's tuition is like getting banged by a buck.

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Doritos
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Re: UC Berkeley in decline?

Postby Doritos » Tue Feb 09, 2010 1:12 pm

fortissimo wrote:
eth3n wrote:berkeley > stanford on last year's july bar...

is this thread just referring to the tuition increases? (Berkeley used to be best bang for buck outside HYS)


Don't TTTs have really high bar passage rates? Bar passage rates don't mean much in determining quality of grads.

On the flip side, now Berkeley's tuition is like getting banged by a buck.


Not quite a buck buttttt...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0S6xdSJzmIY




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