Duke vs. Michigan?

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ibingham
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Re: Duke vs. Michigan?

Postby ibingham » Sun Feb 07, 2010 9:19 pm

scionb4 wrote:I am going to defy logic and go with Duke simply because of the better weather. I'd pick any school down the rankings to about Vanderbilt over Michigan simply because it's colder than shit up there. I know that's not the best reason ever, but tell me that come January.


Even though only the top 10% at UCLA (and hence probably Vanderbilt) got biglaw? It's also not been that cold at all in Michigan this winter. But okay, go to the crappier schools and get far worse job prospects.

I'd go to Michigan, but that's because Dook sucks.

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rayiner
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Re: Duke vs. Michigan?

Postby rayiner » Sun Feb 07, 2010 9:21 pm

ibingham wrote:
scionb4 wrote:I am going to defy logic and go with Duke simply because of the better weather. I'd pick any school down the rankings to about Vanderbilt over Michigan simply because it's colder than shit up there. I know that's not the best reason ever, but tell me that come January.


Even though only the top 10% at UCLA (and hence probably Vanderbilt) got biglaw? It's also not been that cold at all in Michigan this winter. But okay, go to the crappier schools and get far worse job prospects.

I'd go to Michigan, but that's because Dook sucks.


[Citation needed]

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jcunni5
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Re: Duke vs. Michigan?

Postby jcunni5 » Sun Feb 07, 2010 9:30 pm

ibingham wrote:
scionb4 wrote:I am going to defy logic and go with Duke simply because of the better weather. I'd pick any school down the rankings to about Vanderbilt over Michigan simply because it's colder than shit up there. I know that's not the best reason ever, but tell me that come January.


Even though only the top 10% at UCLA (and hence probably Vanderbilt) got biglaw? It's also not been that cold at all in Michigan this winter. But okay, go to the crappier schools and get far worse job prospects.

I'd go to Michigan, but that's because Dook sucks.


i don't think it is fair to compare duke with vandy and UCLA, IMO Duke is a considerably better school that has very good placement almost identical to Michigan's

scionb4
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Re: Duke vs. Michigan?

Postby scionb4 » Mon Feb 08, 2010 12:46 am

ibingham wrote:
scionb4 wrote:I am going to defy logic and go with Duke simply because of the better weather. I'd pick any school down the rankings to about Vanderbilt over Michigan simply because it's colder than shit up there. I know that's not the best reason ever, but tell me that come January.


Even though only the top 10% at UCLA (and hence probably Vanderbilt) got biglaw? It's also not been that cold at all in Michigan this winter. But okay, go to the crappier schools and get far worse job prospects.

I'd go to Michigan, but that's because Dook sucks.


Hands down I'd go to Vandy/UCLA/Texas over Michigan. It's not all about the statistical probability of getting a Big Law job. That's not the be-all-end-all. I'd rather be where I want to be. I'm not saying that I would choose a really shitty California school over Michigan, but those schools are good enough to take environment into account. I don't like really cold winters. So what.

sam.emton
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Re: Duke vs. Michigan?

Postby sam.emton » Mon Feb 08, 2010 1:09 am

ibingham wrote:
scionb4 wrote:I am going to defy logic and go with Duke simply because of the better weather. I'd pick any school down the rankings to about Vanderbilt over Michigan simply because it's colder than shit up there. I know that's not the best reason ever, but tell me that come January.


Even though only the top 10% at UCLA (and hence probably Vanderbilt) got biglaw? It's also not been that cold at all in Michigan this winter. But okay, go to the crappier schools and get far worse job prospects.

I'd go to Michigan, but that's because Dook sucks.


Where did you get the "UCLA/Vanderbilt only sends 10% to big law" idea? This is two years old, but http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1. Even if the statistics are lower, I doubt that UCLA/USC/Vandy all dropped from 40%+ to 10%.

40% at Vanderbilt/UCLA/USC isn't that big of a difference from 60% at Michigan/UVA/Duke. Not saying that I'd pick one of the former over one of the latter, but it seems that the differences between T14 and just-out-of-T14 are often greatly exaggerated on this site.

fortissimo
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Re: Duke vs. Michigan?

Postby fortissimo » Mon Feb 08, 2010 1:12 am

scionb4 wrote:
ibingham wrote:
scionb4 wrote:I am going to defy logic and go with Duke simply because of the better weather. I'd pick any school down the rankings to about Vanderbilt over Michigan simply because it's colder than shit up there. I know that's not the best reason ever, but tell me that come January.


Even though only the top 10% at UCLA (and hence probably Vanderbilt) got biglaw? It's also not been that cold at all in Michigan this winter. But okay, go to the crappier schools and get far worse job prospects.

I'd go to Michigan, but that's because Dook sucks.


Hands down I'd go to Vandy/UCLA/Texas over Michigan. It's not all about the statistical probability of getting a Big Law job. That's not the be-all-end-all. I'd rather be where I want to be. I'm not saying that I would choose a really shitty California school over Michigan, but those schools are good enough to take environment into account. I don't like really cold winters. So what.


Aren't you from the Midwest? Maybe you want to migrate to a place with hot weather, but you should be acclimated to the "cold" winters if you've lived here all your life.

I think ITE the t-14 give you a higher chance of landing any job, period, not just biglaw, because they provide for more mobility. You have wider array of markets available for you. The notion is that if you attend UCLA you are pretty much stuck in So Cal, and according to a Hastings student, a ton of UCLA 2Ls were begging for jobs at Hastings PI fair. Also, it is easier landing judicial internships and clerkships from T-14s because judges are prestige whores. (I.e. The federal judge that hired me in another region (not the Midwest) pretty much decided to hire me before I interviewed solely because I go to Michigan.)

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bighead715
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Re: Duke vs. Michigan?

Postby bighead715 » Mon Feb 08, 2010 1:16 am

michigan. FTW.

scionb4
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Re: Duke vs. Michigan?

Postby scionb4 » Mon Feb 08, 2010 1:34 am

fortissimo wrote:
scionb4 wrote:
ibingham wrote:
scionb4 wrote:I am going to defy logic and go with Duke simply because of the better weather. I'd pick any school down the rankings to about Vanderbilt over Michigan simply because it's colder than shit up there. I know that's not the best reason ever, but tell me that come January.


Even though only the top 10% at UCLA (and hence probably Vanderbilt) got biglaw? It's also not been that cold at all in Michigan this winter. But okay, go to the crappier schools and get far worse job prospects.

I'd go to Michigan, but that's because Dook sucks.


Hands down I'd go to Vandy/UCLA/Texas over Michigan. It's not all about the statistical probability of getting a Big Law job. That's not the be-all-end-all. I'd rather be where I want to be. I'm not saying that I would choose a really shitty California school over Michigan, but those schools are good enough to take environment into account. I don't like really cold winters. So what.


Aren't you from the Midwest? Maybe you want to migrate to a place with hot weather, but you should be acclimated to the "cold" winters if you've lived here all your life.

I think ITE the t-14 give you a higher chance of landing any job, period, not just biglaw, because they provide for more mobility. You have wider array of markets available for you. The notion is that if you attend UCLA you are pretty much stuck in So Cal, and according to a Hastings student, a ton of UCLA 2Ls were begging for jobs at Hastings PI fair. Also, it is easier landing judicial internships and clerkships from T-14s because judges are prestige whores. (I.e. The federal judge that hired me in another region (not the Midwest) pretty much decided to hire me before I interviewed solely because I go to Michigan.)


Michigan is much colder than what I'm used to. And I'm sick of what I'm used to. It's too cold in Valpo.

fortissimo
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Re: Duke vs. Michigan?

Postby fortissimo » Mon Feb 08, 2010 2:31 am

scionb4 wrote:
fortissimo wrote:
Aren't you from the Midwest? Maybe you want to migrate to a place with hot weather, but you should be acclimated to the "cold" winters if you've lived here all your life.

I think ITE the t-14 give you a higher chance of landing any job, period, not just biglaw, because they provide for more mobility. You have wider array of markets available for you. The notion is that if you attend UCLA you are pretty much stuck in So Cal, and according to a Hastings student, a ton of UCLA 2Ls were begging for jobs at Hastings PI fair. Also, it is easier landing judicial internships and clerkships from T-14s because judges are prestige whores. (I.e. The federal judge that hired me in another region (not the Midwest) pretty much decided to hire me before I interviewed solely because I go to Michigan.)


Michigan is much colder than what I'm used to.


According to wikipedia, Valpo, Indiana and Ann Arbor have pretty much identical weather patterns and average highs and lows, so I have absolutely no idea where you are pulling this from.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valparaiso ... #Geography

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ann_Arbor, ... an#Climate
Last edited by fortissimo on Mon Feb 08, 2010 2:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

shadu
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Re: Duke vs. Michigan?

Postby shadu » Mon Feb 08, 2010 2:31 am

scionb4 wrote:
ibingham wrote:
scionb4 wrote:I am going to defy logic and go with Duke simply because of the better weather. I'd pick any school down the rankings to about Vanderbilt over Michigan simply because it's colder than shit up there. I know that's not the best reason ever, but tell me that come January.


Even though only the top 10% at UCLA (and hence probably Vanderbilt) got biglaw? It's also not been that cold at all in Michigan this winter. But okay, go to the crappier schools and get far worse job prospects.

I'd go to Michigan, but that's because Dook sucks.


Hands down I'd go to Vandy/UCLA/Texas over Michigan. It's not all about the statistical probability of getting a Big Law job. That's not the be-all-end-all. I'd rather be where I want to be. I'm not saying that I would choose a really shitty California school over Michigan, but those schools are good enough to take environment into account. I don't like really cold winters. So what.


I agree 100%

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saltoftheearth
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Re: Duke vs. Michigan?

Postby saltoftheearth » Mon Feb 08, 2010 2:34 am

go for the lay prestige, OP

jk, but no really-

Duke

ibingham
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Re: Duke vs. Michigan?

Postby ibingham » Mon Feb 08, 2010 2:40 am

jcunni5 wrote:
ibingham wrote:
scionb4 wrote:I am going to defy logic and go with Duke simply because of the better weather. I'd pick any school down the rankings to about Vanderbilt over Michigan simply because it's colder than shit up there. I know that's not the best reason ever, but tell me that come January.


Even though only the top 10% at UCLA (and hence probably Vanderbilt) got biglaw? It's also not been that cold at all in Michigan this winter. But okay, go to the crappier schools and get far worse job prospects.

I'd go to Michigan, but that's because Dook sucks.


i don't think it is fair to compare duke with vandy and UCLA, IMO Duke is a considerably better school that has very good placement almost identical to Michigan's


I was more so commenting on the wide disparity in employment prospects between Michigan (well all of MVBP) and Vanderbilt, UCLA, and UT. I think it's a joke to consider taking those schools at sticker over MVBP. I think it's a moot point though, as I don't think scion has the numbers for MVBP.

ibingham
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Re: Duke vs. Michigan?

Postby ibingham » Mon Feb 08, 2010 2:49 am

sam.emton wrote:
ibingham wrote:
scionb4 wrote:I am going to defy logic and go with Duke simply because of the better weather. I'd pick any school down the rankings to about Vanderbilt over Michigan simply because it's colder than shit up there. I know that's not the best reason ever, but tell me that come January.


Even though only the top 10% at UCLA (and hence probably Vanderbilt) got biglaw? It's also not been that cold at all in Michigan this winter. But okay, go to the crappier schools and get far worse job prospects.

I'd go to Michigan, but that's because Dook sucks.


Where did you get the "UCLA/Vanderbilt only sends 10% to big law" idea? This is two years old, but http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1. Even if the statistics are lower, I doubt that UCLA/USC/Vandy all dropped from 40%+ to 10%.

40% at Vanderbilt/UCLA/USC isn't that big of a difference from 60% at Michigan/UVA/Duke. Not saying that I'd pick one of the former over one of the latter, but it seems that the differences between T14 and just-out-of-T14 are often greatly exaggerated on this site.


Anecdotal, but I've heard the same thing from different sources. I wouldn't be surprised if regional schools were hit harder in big law placement than t14s because their main market tanked and they can't find work elsewhere. 40% to 10% doesn't seem that unreasonable in light of the crash because regional schools depend mainly on one market's volatility.

scionb4
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Re: Duke vs. Michigan?

Postby scionb4 » Mon Feb 08, 2010 12:11 pm

fortissimo wrote:
scionb4 wrote:
fortissimo wrote:
Aren't you from the Midwest? Maybe you want to migrate to a place with hot weather, but you should be acclimated to the "cold" winters if you've lived here all your life.

I think ITE the t-14 give you a higher chance of landing any job, period, not just biglaw, because they provide for more mobility. You have wider array of markets available for you. The notion is that if you attend UCLA you are pretty much stuck in So Cal, and according to a Hastings student, a ton of UCLA 2Ls were begging for jobs at Hastings PI fair. Also, it is easier landing judicial internships and clerkships from T-14s because judges are prestige whores. (I.e. The federal judge that hired me in another region (not the Midwest) pretty much decided to hire me before I interviewed solely because I go to Michigan.)


Michigan is much colder than what I'm used to.


According to wikipedia, Valpo, Indiana and Ann Arbor have pretty much identical weather patterns and average highs and lows, so I have absolutely no idea where you are pulling this from.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valparaiso ... #Geography

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ann_Arbor, ... an#Climate


Ok, buddy, seriously, kind of creeping me out looking up the weather patterns of the city I live in just because I said I would rather go to school in a warmer climate. I would say get a life, but I can hardly talk with how much time I waste on this website.

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McNabb
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Re: Duke vs. Michigan?

Postby McNabb » Mon Feb 08, 2010 12:23 pm

Duke and Michigan are more than close enough for the OP to pick Duke over Mich because he doesn't like cold weather. Frankly, with the extreme weather difference between the two locations, if he prefers warm weather and isn't trying to work in Chicago, it really makes no sense for the OP to go to Michigan over Duke without more money at Michigan. If he wants to work V10 in NYC or something any of the top 14 schools place well in those firms (except for Wachtell and Cravath which are pickier).

Really the schools that do best in the top 14 at V10 firms are the schools where more students want those firms, that's why you have Duke so high up in the nlj chart--- a lot of their students want to work in those firms, this is in contrast to say Boalt. For people who want to work in NYC/V10 almost all of the top 14 do well and so they should use money and personal preferences to choose.

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Nietzsche
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Re: Duke vs. Michigan?

Postby Nietzsche » Mon Feb 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Duke offered me close to twice as much money as Michigan, but I took Michigan 8)
Ann Arbor is an awesome town, the Law School is beautiful, and there is something to be said about bars in walking distance that are high class. Who wants to drive 20 minutes to a bar?
Michigan rocks. Come visit!

insidethetwenty
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Re: Duke vs. Michigan?

Postby insidethetwenty » Mon Feb 08, 2010 4:07 pm

Visit them both and see which one you like better. See which area and school feel more like "your" law school.

The differences between the two are going to be so small for the typical applicant that there is no reason not to take the one that feels the best to you.

junelsat
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Re: Duke vs. Michigan?

Postby junelsat » Mon Feb 08, 2010 10:14 pm

Just received a letter for 15k per year to Michigan. Very happy about this. I'd be shocked if I got more from Duke, but you never know. Planning to visit both schools during March.

What exactly does OP stand for btw?

Tofu
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Re: Duke vs. Michigan?

Postby Tofu » Mon Feb 08, 2010 10:18 pm

original poster

woeisme
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Re: Duke vs. Michigan?

Postby woeisme » Wed Feb 10, 2010 1:35 am

junelsat wrote:I'm in at both, and am wondering what the differences between the two schools are. They seem fairly comparable on paper. I'm from NY and am planning to head back there after law school. Thanks.


Cornell!

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Bronte
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Re: Duke vs. Michigan?

Postby Bronte » Wed Feb 10, 2010 11:28 am

scionb4 wrote:Hands down I'd go to Vandy/UCLA/Texas over Michigan. It's not all about the statistical probability of getting a Big Law job. That's not the be-all-end-all. I'd rather be where I want to be. I'm not saying that I would choose a really shitty California school over Michigan, but those schools are good enough to take environment into account. I don't like really cold winters. So what.


For some people it is all about the statistical probability of getting a biglaw job. For example, people who want biglaw jobs.

junelsat
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Re: Duke vs. Michigan?

Postby junelsat » Sat Feb 27, 2010 3:47 pm

So now that the money figures are in and I've started getting rejected from the other reach schools I applied to, I'd like to pose this question one more time and ask about two specific factors. I've gotten 12k from Duke, and 15k from Michigan, so basically the money is a wash.

Does one of these schools have a better reputation nationally?

How would you compare their cultures?

I don't care about the weather enough to allow it to affect what school I attend, and I see that they both place well in New York. The question for me is what kind of an academic experience will I have at each, and which degree will open more doors as my career progresses.

yourdadcalled
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Re: Duke vs. Michigan?

Postby yourdadcalled » Sat Feb 27, 2010 4:22 pm

junelsat wrote:Does one of these schools have a better reputation nationally?


Michigan seems to beat Duke in nearly every measurable category. It also spreads its graduates out more evenly across the country, whereas nearly 50% of Duke's graduates take jobs in the South after graduation.

USNWR Peer Assessment:

Michigan 4.4
Duke 4.2

USNWR Judges/Lawyers Assessment:

Michigan 4.5
Duke 4.4

Article III federal clerkship placement:

Michigan 14.0%
Duke 11.7%

NY Bar passage rate:

Michigan 95.7%
Duke 87.7%

NLJ 250 2009 hiring:

Michigan 51.0%
Duke 49.8%

oakroom
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Re: Duke vs. Michigan?

Postby oakroom » Sat Feb 27, 2010 6:50 pm

yourdadcalled wrote:...nearly 50% of Duke's graduates take jobs in the South after graduation.

Not true: http://www.law.duke.edu/career/resources/facts

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soullesswonder
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Re: Duke vs. Michigan?

Postby soullesswonder » Sat Feb 27, 2010 6:57 pm

FlightoftheEarls wrote:
Bosque wrote:Oh, and interesting fact: the state with the highest representation in our 1l class is-get this-California. So I am not so sure about Michigan necessarily being stronger back there, at least in the future.

Because you have a large number of CA residents means that you'll be stronger back there in the future? I didn't realize that where students came from made more of a difference for placement than the school's location, quality and reputation. So if most of Yale's students came from the midwest for the incoming 2013 class, Duke would place better in the SF market than Yale? Interesting.



I believe Bosque's point is that a sustained pattern of CA residents attending Duke and returning back home to practice could acclimate firms to Duke grads to the point where they will hire more non-CA students. This would presumably occur over a number of years. Your Yale retort is specious, b/c Yale grads have maximum portability anyways.




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