Which T20 schools are on the up and up?

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cutiewiddlebebe
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Which T20 schools are on the up and up?

Postby cutiewiddlebebe » Sat Feb 06, 2010 10:48 am

In other words, which schools will become more prestigious over time, across several decades?

To offer an example: My mother went to Smith College in the 70s. My uncle went to Middlebury in the 70s. At that time, Smith was the much more highly regarded of the two. 40 years later, and Middlebury is one of the most prestigious small liberal arts schools, whereas Smith's reputation has significantly deteriorated.

Thus, I want to make sure my law school is future-proof. I want a school on the upswing, not the decline. Northwestern, for example, really seems to be rising rapidly through the ranks, whereas Virginia seems to be on the decline.

Caveat: let's remove HYS from the discussion.

Any advice or insight would be most appreciated. Thank you for your time.
Last edited by cutiewiddlebebe on Sat Feb 06, 2010 11:52 am, edited 2 times in total.

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scribelaw
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Re: Which T20 schools are on the up and up?

Postby scribelaw » Sat Feb 06, 2010 10:51 am

"Future-proof?"

Also, you are going to get hammered for your anti-UVA trollling.

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D. H2Oman
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Re: Which T20 schools are on the up and up?

Postby D. H2Oman » Sat Feb 06, 2010 10:54 am

Are you planning on applying now and deferring for the next 27 years?

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Doritos
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Re: Which T20 schools are on the up and up?

Postby Doritos » Sat Feb 06, 2010 10:55 am

Please give a detailed analysis, with citations, on how Northwestern is "rapidly rising through the rankings" and how Virginia is on the decline. Cover page is optional.

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TTH
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Re: Which T20 schools are on the up and up?

Postby TTH » Sat Feb 06, 2010 11:05 am

Image

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cutiewiddlebebe
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Re: Which T20 schools are on the up and up?

Postby cutiewiddlebebe » Sat Feb 06, 2010 11:30 am

Doritos wrote:Please give a detailed analysis, with citations, on how Northwestern is "rapidly rising through the rankings" and how Virginia is on the decline. Cover page is optional.

Northwestern:
Applicants:
  • 1997: 500
  • 2009: 3500

Median LSAT:
  • 1997: 165
  • 2009: 170

Source: http://www.law.northwestern.edu/admissions/profile/

That's one hell of a positive swing. Hence, Northwestern is on the up and up.

Virginia:
An influential legal blogger recently referred to Virgina as "potentially passé" (--LinkRemoved--). Further, it is often stated on these very forums that Virginia is attempting to climb it's way back up the rankings by playing to US News watermarks in its acceptances.
Last edited by cutiewiddlebebe on Sat Feb 06, 2010 11:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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holydonkey
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Re: Which T20 schools are on the up and up?

Postby holydonkey » Sat Feb 06, 2010 11:39 am

There are a number of threads on rankings over time. And this...http://www.prelawhandbook.com/law_schoo ... 00_present

There seems to be a clear line at the T18. Except USC 1 year, T18 are T18 are T18. After that all T30 seem relatively stable. Then not so much.

DanInALionsDen
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Re: Which T20 schools are on the up and up?

Postby DanInALionsDen » Sat Feb 06, 2010 11:43 am

cutiewiddlebebe wrote:
Doritos wrote:Please give a detailed analysis, with citations, on how Northwestern is "rapidly rising through the rankings" and how Virginia is on the decline. Cover page is optional.

Northwestern:
Applicants:
  • 1997: 500
  • 2009: 3500

Median LSAT:
  • 1997: 165
  • 2009: 170

Source: http://www.law.northwestern.edu/admissions/profile/

That's one hell of a positive swing. Hence, Northwestern is on the up and up.

Virgina:
An influential legal blogger recently referred to Virgina as "potentially passé" (--LinkRemoved--). Further, it is often stated on these very forums that Virginia is attempting to climb it's way back up the rankings by playing to US News watermarks in its acceptances.



As to the bolded portion, maybe, but I think Northwestern is much more well known for "gaming" the rankings. They have bought their reputation by moving their law school away from their main campus and into a nice area of Chicago, thus attracting more applicants, including more prestigious applicants than the school might deserve. They then throw money at these applicants in order to attract them away from schools which are better academically (Michigan, and UVa for example). Add to this that Northwestern is widely considered to have the weakest faculty in the T14. I'd say it's possible that they slip in the rankings in time, but then they might keep gaming them successfully.

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cutiewiddlebebe
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Re: Which T20 schools are on the up and up?

Postby cutiewiddlebebe » Sat Feb 06, 2010 11:44 am


That's the ticket! Thank you kindly.

(As an aside, the numbers provided by that link support my assertion. For the period of 2000-2008, NW went from 12.5 to 10, whereas Virginia went from 8.5 to 10. Like mountain climbers passing one another on opposite treks. One old and beaten on his descent, the other eager and hungry, racing to the summit. Really quite beautiful, if you think about it.)

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Re: Which T20 schools are on the up and up?

Postby DanInALionsDen » Sat Feb 06, 2010 11:57 am

cutiewiddlebebe wrote:

That's the ticket! Thank you kindly.

(As an aside, the numbers provided by that link support my assertion. For the period of 2000-2008, NW went from 12.5 to 10, whereas Virginia went from 8.5 to 10. Like mountain climbers passing one another on opposite treks. One old and beaten on his descent, the other eager and hungry, racing to the summit. Really quite beautiful, if you think about it.)



If I had to guess, I'd say you were a splitter, maybe with work experience, and you really wanted to hear that Northwestern was climbing the rankings because it's your best shot at the t14.

I think Northwestern will stay right where it is, at 10 (assuming the 10 block stays in tact. Look who's above it. Michigan has been at 9 for years and years, and doesn't seem likely to move. UPenn is an Ivy with better placement in NYC biglaw.

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Doritos
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Re: Which T20 schools are on the up and up?

Postby Doritos » Sat Feb 06, 2010 12:02 pm

cutiewiddlebebe wrote:
Doritos wrote:Please give a detailed analysis, with citations, on how Northwestern is "rapidly rising through the rankings" and how Virginia is on the decline. Cover page is optional.

Northwestern:
Applicants:
  • 1997: 500
  • 2009: 3500

Median LSAT:
  • 1997: 165
  • 2009: 170

Source: http://www.law.northwestern.edu/admissions/profile/

That's one hell of a positive swing. Hence, Northwestern is on the up and up.

Virginia:
An influential legal blogger recently referred to Virgina as "potentially passé" (--LinkRemoved--). Further, it is often stated on these very forums that Virginia is attempting to climb it's way back up the rankings by playing to US News watermarks in its acceptances.



I think that link http://www.prelawhandbook.com/law_schoo ... 00_present is pretty quality. It shows NW going from around 12th to now being around 10th and UVA being 8th/9th and ending up at 10th (this is from 2000 to 2008). Huge swings I would not call those. Also, one blogger says UVA is passe? Come on. One blogger? Also, I think every school minus Yale has been accused of gaming the rankings in this forum. Just because mich1L69 starts a thread that says UVA sucks doesn't mean you should take that as reality. Also, in 2002 the median LSAT for UVA was 166 and it is now 170 http://www.virginia.edu/registrar/recor ... er11-3.htm. 4 point jump in 7 years for the good guys v. 5 point jump in 12 years for NW. Another thing about the rankings by the way. UVA (like Mich and Berk) has a larger class size due to being a state school which hurts its ranking. That has nothing to do with the quality of education or employment prospects which are all I really care about. Not to say NW is not a quality school, I mean raiyner goes there so its gotta be good, I'm just saying its ridic to say that UVA is some old decrepit mountain climber falling off the summit and NW is some prodigy rising to the top and I will not stand for it. Doritos has spoken.
Last edited by Doritos on Sat Feb 06, 2010 12:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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RVP11
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Re: Which T20 schools are on the up and up?

Postby RVP11 » Sat Feb 06, 2010 12:05 pm

Flame.

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Doritos
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Re: Which T20 schools are on the up and up?

Postby Doritos » Sat Feb 06, 2010 12:06 pm

JSUVA2012 wrote:Flame.


I agree I'm just bored due to being snowed inside my Ohio home

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rayiner
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Re: Which T20 schools are on the up and up?

Postby rayiner » Sat Feb 06, 2010 12:09 pm

DanInALionsDen wrote:As to the bolded portion, maybe, but I think Northwestern is much more well known for "gaming" the rankings. They have bought their reputation by moving their law school away from their main campus and into a nice area of Chicago, thus attracting more applicants, including more prestigious applicants than the school might deserve. They then throw money at these applicants in order to attract them away from schools which are better academically (Michigan, and UVa for example). Add to this that Northwestern is widely considered to have the weakest faculty in the T14. I'd say it's possible that they slip in the rankings in time, but then they might keep gaming them successfully.


Northwestern's law school has always been in downtown Chicago; they move into their present facilities in the 1920s. I don't know how having a great location counts as "gaming" the rankings --- you think NYU would have gotten prestigious without it's choice location in NYC? Also, NU throws money to it's top applicants, but it gives scholarships to the lowest percentage of it's student body of any T14.

I also don't know about "widely considered" to have the weakest faculty:
http://www.leiterrankings.com/faculty/2 ... pact.shtml
http://www.leiterrankings.com/faculty/2 ... pact.shtml

NU ends up around Penn/Georgetown/Cornell in each of these studies, and in front of Virginia.

Not that I agree with the ridiculous claim in the OP, of course. Just doing my duty as one of the resident NU trolls. :lol:
Last edited by rayiner on Sat Feb 06, 2010 12:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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cutiewiddlebebe
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Re: Which T20 schools are on the up and up?

Postby cutiewiddlebebe » Sat Feb 06, 2010 12:10 pm

JSUVA2012 wrote:Flame.

Oh for crying out loud.

Can we please at least attempt to see the forest for the trees, people? I cited one example in a casual, flippant manner, and it overtakes the the thread.

Let's at least attempt to spot the real issue and address the actual question. For crying out loud.

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TTH
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Re: Which T20 schools are on the up and up?

Postby TTH » Sat Feb 06, 2010 12:12 pm

cutiewiddlebebe wrote:
JSUVA2012 wrote:Flame.

Oh for crying out loud.

Can we please at least attempt to see the forest for the trees, people? I cited one example in a casual, flippant manner, and it overtakes the the thread.

Let's at least attempt to spot the real issue and address the actual question. For crying out loud.


Gunner flame.

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rayiner
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Re: Which T20 schools are on the up and up?

Postby rayiner » Sat Feb 06, 2010 12:12 pm

cutiewiddlebebe wrote:
JSUVA2012 wrote:Flame.

Oh for crying out loud.

Can we please at least attempt to see the forest for the trees, people? I cited one example in a casual, flippant manner, and it overtakes the the thread.

Let's at least attempt to spot the real issue and address the actual question. For crying out loud.


Taking your original post at face value, the simple fact is that you can't predict what'll happen decades out, other than maybe the T10 will be composed of mostly the current T15, as it has been since the 1970s...

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cutiewiddlebebe
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Re: Which T20 schools are on the up and up?

Postby cutiewiddlebebe » Sat Feb 06, 2010 12:16 pm

TipTravHoot wrote:
cutiewiddlebebe wrote:
JSUVA2012 wrote:Flame.

Oh for crying out loud.

Can we please at least attempt to see the forest for the trees, people? I cited one example in a casual, flippant manner, and it overtakes the the thread.

Let's at least attempt to spot the real issue and address the actual question. For crying out loud.


Gunner [strike]flame[/strike].

1/2 right. Bought all my first-year casebooks, horn books, and commercial outlines. Read Law School Confidential 5 times. Getting to Maybe 6 times. Quit work in January to audit classes at local law school, living off savings, studying.

Still take issue with the flame remark. You guys have thin skin (there's my flame).

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D. H2Oman
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Re: Which T20 schools are on the up and up?

Postby D. H2Oman » Sat Feb 06, 2010 12:18 pm

cutiewiddlebebe wrote:1/2 right. Bought all my first-year casebooks, horn books, and commercial outlines. Read Law School Confidential 5 times. Getting to Maybe 6 times. Quit work in January to audit classes at local law school, living off savings, studying.

Still take issue with the flame remark. You guys have thin skin (there's my flame).



Must suck having no life.

DanInALionsDen
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Re: Which T20 schools are on the up and up?

Postby DanInALionsDen » Sat Feb 06, 2010 12:25 pm

rayiner wrote:
DanInALionsDen wrote:As to the bolded portion, maybe, but I think Northwestern is much more well known for "gaming" the rankings. They have bought their reputation by moving their law school away from their main campus and into a nice area of Chicago, thus attracting more applicants, including more prestigious applicants than the school might deserve. They then throw money at these applicants in order to attract them away from schools which are better academically (Michigan, and UVa for example). Add to this that Northwestern is widely considered to have the weakest faculty in the T14. I'd say it's possible that they slip in the rankings in time, but then they might keep gaming them successfully.


Northwestern's law school has always been in downtown Chicago; they move into their present facilities in the 1920s. I don't know how having a great location counts as "gaming" the rankings --- you think NYU would have gotten prestigious without it's choice location in NYC? Also, NU throws money to it's top applicants, but it gives scholarships to the lowest percentage of it's student body of any T14.

I also don't know about "widely considered" to have the weakest faculty:
http://www.leiterrankings.com/faculty/2 ... pact.shtml
http://www.leiterrankings.com/faculty/2 ... pact.shtml

NU ends up around Penn/Georgetown/Cornell in each of these studies, and in front of Virginia.

Not that I agree with the ridiculous claim in the OP, of course. Just doing my duty as one of the resident NU trolls. :lol:


Definitely an NU troll. I never mentioned NYU, because it wasn't relevant to this conversation. Of course NYU benefits from it's location, but it's location is also just where the rest of the school is. I know that NU law has been where it is for a while, but my point was that a choice was made at NU to move the school away from the main campus. My point is that NU gives massive amounts of money to applicants who won't get that much at peer schools. That's why no other law school will consider NUs aid in matching, because they're known for throwing out absurd amounts to attract students who could and would go elsewhere. As for how it is widely considered to have a weak faculty, maybe I should have rephrased that to say that it was widely consider to be weak academically, although this relates to the caliber of their faculty. As for where my information on that matter came from, you can just check their TLS profile: "Comparatively low peer and lawyer/judge assessment scores have traditionally hindered Northwestern Law’s rankings. Currently, it has the 14th lowest academic reputation score, and the 13th lowest lawyer/judge reputation score. Taken together, those two numbers count for a hefty 40% of a school’s rank."

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Doritos
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Re: Which T20 schools are on the up and up?

Postby Doritos » Sat Feb 06, 2010 12:31 pm

cutiewiddlebebe wrote:
JSUVA2012 wrote:Flame.

Oh for crying out loud.

Can we please at least attempt to see the forest for the trees, people? I cited one example in a casual, flippant manner, and it overtakes the the thread.

Let's at least attempt to spot the real issue and address the actual question. For crying out loud.



Feel free to address my rebuttal of your post then.

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rayiner
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Re: Which T20 schools are on the up and up?

Postby rayiner » Sat Feb 06, 2010 12:59 pm

DanInALionsDen wrote:I never mentioned NYU, because it wasn't relevant to this conversation. Of course NYU benefits from it's location, but it's location is also just where the rest of the school is. I know that NU law has been where it is for a while, but my point was that a choice was made at NU to move the school away from the main campus.


NU Law never moved away from the main campus; it's always been in downtown Chicago.

DanInALionsDen wrote:My point is that NU gives massive amounts of money to applicants who won't get that much at peer schools. That's why no other law school will consider NUs aid in matching, because they're known for throwing out absurd amounts to attract students who could and would go elsewhere.


Except they don't. They throw around a lot of money, but mostly to steal students away from CCN. Look at the data from the 2008-2009 cycle:

http://northwestern.lawschoolnumbers.co ... 00&type=jd

NU gives out huge scholarships, but nearly all the folks who get them have a CCN admit or at least $$$ at MVPB as well.

DanInALionsDen wrote:As for how it is widely considered to have a weak faculty, maybe I should have rephrased that to say that it was widely consider to be weak academically, although this relates to the caliber of their faculty.


What does that mean? Weak faculty? At least by Leiter's measures, it's in the same league as Penn/Cornell/Georgetown. Weak students? With better medians than Michigan? Weak curriculum?

DanInALionsDen wrote:"Comparatively low peer and lawyer/judge assessment scores have traditionally hindered Northwestern Law’s rankings. Currently, it has the 14th lowest academic reputation score, and the 13th lowest lawyer/judge reputation score. Taken together, those two numbers count for a hefty 40% of a school’s rank."


This is a circular argument.

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Bosque
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Re: Which T20 schools are on the up and up?

Postby Bosque » Sat Feb 06, 2010 2:57 pm

Duke is on the rise. Why? Because they will be dragged along in my rapid rise to power. Once I am eternal emperor of all the earth, you will make pilgrimages to Duke every year in honor of my greatness. The mountains will bow down in reverance, the seas will rise up in song, and the wicked will gaze upon my awesome visage and DESPAIR!

MuHAHAhaha!!




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