Anyone else moving down a notch? Forum

[alabamabound]

potentially important question for my self-respect: Does T10 UG to T14 LS count as a lateral move?

[Doritos]

potentially important question for my self-respect: Does T10 UG to T14 LS count as a lateral move?

I would say so because getting into T14 is harder than getting into a T10 UG methinks.

[Borhas]

my point is that someone from a lower strata could hypothetically be an absolute book fiend, love school, and excel at their local TTT state school. if they manage to couple that with a good LSAT they are going to be in a t-10 LS.

oh I thought you were saying that it would be easier for the working class kid to get into a LS than the silver spoon kid.

everything is easier with a silver spoon, but I agree that it is relatively easier for the working class kid to get into a "top" LS than a "top" UG.

potentially important question for my self-respect: Does T10 UG to T14 LS count as a lateral move?

not if you want to be a lawyer

(and this really gets at the heart of the issue. Law school is about training you to become a lawyer. If that is your goal, then ask yourself: is it a lateral move to go to T14 LS from a "T10" UG)

[UFMatt]

A good man always knows his limitations

Best response of this thread, Callahan.

OP, in my experience there are two types of grads from prestigious schools. One type are truly intelligent and rarely if ever mention where they went to school. The other type are insecure, bring up their degree constantly, and only were able to attend by virtue of money. As for your question, I consider your path moving up, as a T15-T25 JD is more impressive than your bachelors degree.

[moandersen]

I love to look at lists of undergraduate institutions represented for law schools...

where can you find that info? that would be fascinating to look at.

I guess im moving up (though dont now how far 'up'). I chose location over prestige for undergrad.....

[alabamabound]

potentially important question for my self-respect: Does T10 UG to T14 LS count as a lateral move?

I would say so because getting into T14 is harder than getting into a T10 UG methinks.

The elitist in me thanks you.

[rayiner]

potentially important question for my self-respect: Does T10 UG to T14 LS count as a lateral move?

Like Duke UG to Duke Law? Sure...

Empirical observation here at NU: it seems most people lateral. The bulk of the representation here seems to be from Penn/Duke/Dartmouth/Northwestern/WashU + the top publics (Berkeley, UCLA, Michigan, UVA, Illinois) + equivalently ranked LACs. You have a couple of HYP folks, and a couple from non-T1 undergrads, but they're on the edges of the distribution.

[Aeroplane]

Supposedly the two most represented UG's at Michigan, besides UM itself (duh) are Yale & Cornell.

For details, see http://www.law.umich.edu/prospectivestu ... ergraddist

[RVP11]

UVA has the most representation from UVA UG, W&M, BYU, and Princeton.

I would estimate that at least 80% of the people here made their move up in the rankings from UG to LS.

[OperaSoprano]

This is why all my classmates are smarter/more accomplished than I am. The Yale thing was actually kind of surprising to me, though I know about 15 Columbia kids at my school:

[daesonesb]

I've never seen my UG in any of those list, either (although I do know 1 former classmate at Cornell). The average LSAT score at my college was in the 130s. I anticipate attending a T14 in the fall (barring $$$ from a T20). It feels good.

Average score at mine is like mid-high 150s maybe? It's just not a school where anyone aspires to be a lawyer, nor do any of the majors foster any relevant skills.

My school, just from a quick adding up of the score breakdown I've got on my lsac transcript, had 65% of test takers at the 50 percentile mark and up. We had 29% of test takers at the 163 mark or higher (80th percentile).

So I think it's a good argument for either A) There are more hopeful lawyers at my school than average, or B) People at my school are smarter than average.

I like choice B, but I think I'm biased.

[luckyjd]

As someone soon to hold a degree from a respected undergraduate institution (one of H/Y/P) who will likely end up at a law school school ranked 15-20, I feel like I am a member of a small minority. Is anyone else in a similar position? Any thoughts on the matter?

Look at the avg LSAT score at your undegrad. Obviously, not EVERYONE at your undergrad with law school aspirations get into top law schools, or else the average wouldn't be so much lower than the median at those top law schools. Cheer up, you'll still be going to a good law school.

I think I'll probably be staying about the same "ranking". Went to T20 undergrad, now probably T20 law school.

[fortissimo]

potentially important question for my self-respect: Does T10 UG to T14 LS count as a lateral move?

I would say so because getting into T14 is harder than getting into a T10 UG methinks.

I'd say it's lateraling, but I disagree that getting into a T14 is that much harder than getting into a T10 UG. In general, to get into a top 15/Top 10 undergrad you need a high GPA and highish SAT/ACT plus good softs. (Of course there are people that "lucked" into top undergrads with just really good softs and mediocre numbers, but generally speaking that doesn't happen that often.) To get into a top 14 law school you only need a high-ish LSAT. You can screw up your entire undergrad career, not have any good softs, and still get into a top 14 law school. The LSAT is a harder test to do comparably well on (i.e. getting 99th percentile in both) than the SAT, because more people prep for the LSAT and there's stiffer competition due to self-selection and the curve is tighter, but it's not impossible by any means.

Of course the argument can be made that a lot of top undergrads have low average LSATs. So I guess if you are a bad test taker, then a T-14 can be a lot harder to get into because of the increased weight law schools put on standardized tests when compared with ugrads.

[Doritos]

potentially important question for my self-respect: Does T10 UG to T14 LS count as a lateral move?

I would say so because getting into T14 is harder than getting into a T10 UG methinks.

I'd say it's lateraling, but I disagree that getting into a T14 is that much harder than getting into a T10 UG. In general, to get into a top 15/Top 10 undergrad you need a high GPA and highish SAT/ACT plus good softs. (Of course there are people that "lucked" into top undergrads with just really good softs and mediocre numbers, but generally speaking that doesn't happen that often.) To get into a top 14 law school you only need a high-ish LSAT. You can screw up your entire undergrad career, not have any good softs, and still get into a top 14 law school. The LSAT is a harder test to do comparably well on (i.e. getting 99th percentile in both) than the SAT, because more people prep for the LSAT and there's stiffer competition due to self-selection and the curve is tighter, but it's not impossible by any means.

On the other hand, a lot of top undergrads have low average LSATs. So I guess if you are a bad test taker, then a T-14 can be a lot harder to get into.

I'm not disagreeing but I am curious which you think is easier. To get a high GPA in high school v. getting a high GPA in college while majoring in liberal arts stuff. Also, how do splitters work? Like if I had a 2.9 GPA in high school but 98th percentile SAT would I get in a Top UG? I ask because I don't know I just went to UG at the school all my friends did so I did 0 research.

[Borhas]

I don't understand the way you guys are using "lateral move"

Is there some sort of objective snob-o-meter that I'm unaware of?

An undergraduate degree is different than a professional degree... Lateral move only makes sense if you are transferring from one UG to another.

This is why all my classmates are smarter/more accomplished than I am. The Yale thing was actually kind of surprising to me, though I know about 15 Columbia kids at my school:

reading things like this make me sad

[fortissimo]

I'm not disagreeing but I am curious which you think is easier. To get a high GPA in high school v. getting a high GPA in college while majoring in liberal arts stuff. Also, how do splitters work? Like if I had a 2.9 GPA in high school but 98th percentile SAT would I get in a Top UG? I ask because I don't know I just went to UG at the school all my friends did so I did 0 research.

The GPA comparison depends on your curriculum. I didn't major in a liberal art, but my GPA was a lot higher in the liberal arts classes I took than in my non-LA classes. Liberal arts classes in college were really, really easy to get As in with minimal work. In high school my math/science AP classes were probably harder to do well in/required more work than the liberal arts classes I took in college. So I guess I don't have a clear answer to your question. It depends on your ugrad major and high school curriculum.

If you had a 2.9 but 98th SAT you would probably not get into a top undergrad. Undergrad admissions value GPA over SAT/ACT. The importance of soft factors in ugrad admissions also makes ugrad admissions more mysterious. (Example of RL occurrence: 4.0 in high school, 10+ AP classes, 99th percentile SAT, rejected at Northwestern, accepted at UPenn, which is higher ranked. For ugrad, you need the numbers, but also certain 'soft factors' that every school's adcomm differs on.)

[ConMan345]

middle class --> HYPS --> HYS

Honestly, I'm not that smart, I just have a knack for the admissions game.

In many ways, high school was harder/more work than college, so I'm ready to be pushed in law school.

[thalassocrat]

Getting into T10 LS is much harder than getting into T10 UG. It must be, on average, that most people move down.

that depends completely on the person.

T10 ugrad admissions are all about having high socio-economic status: prep/private/elite high school, opportunity to have killer softs (start a nonprofit ftw), parents in the know, playing the game, sat tutoring, etc.

law school really comes down to GPA and LSAT. for someone that is poor, working, or middle class but really smart, I would say T10 law school is easier.

This. It being nothing but a numbers game helps, though. I had the SAT score in HS, but not the GPA when you take into account AP classes nobody was pushing me to take. Ergh, so many regrets about what I could have done, even if I'd known I would end up at the same UG straight out of HS. Anyway, I am moving way up.

[OperaSoprano]

This is why all my classmates are smarter/more accomplished than I am. The Yale thing was actually kind of surprising to me, though I know about 15 Columbia kids at my school:

reading things like this make me sad

Guilty as charged. All the same, I hope I've finally earned this seat.

Do any other 1Ls feel the same?

[subgdubb]

if you do not make it into yale or harvard after attending an ivy you are an imbecile. how dare somebody from such a prestigious institution fall to such low ranks? you have completely ruined your future! the legal market is such that, minus the invention of cold fusion, your only chance of procuring employment suitable for an upper class individual without going to harvard or yale is inconsequential. if you do not mind shoveling gravel for the rest of your life, i would highly recommend not stooping to such a low level. trust me. i recently graduated from a t20 school and i got a job that gave me a splinter!

[sukaili]

Getting into T10 LS is much harder than getting into T10 UG. It must be, on average, that most people move down.

that depends completely on the person.

T10 ugrad admissions are all about having high socio-economic status: prep/private/elite high school, opportunity to have killer softs (start a nonprofit ftw), parents in the know, playing the game, sat tutoring, etc.

law school really comes down to GPA and LSAT. for someone that is poor, working, or middle class but really smart, I would say T10 law school is easier.

+1

My high school didn't offer a single AP class and I had never heard about SAT prep classes until I came to UG. No one in my HS graduating class even applied to an Ivy. The LSAT/UGPA combination for law school makes for a much fairer playing field. I loved my UG, but I'm happy to say I'm moving way up.

[UFMatt]

middle class --> HYPS --> HYS

Honestly, I'm not that smart, I just have a knack for the admissions game.

In many ways, high school was harder/more work than college, so I'm ready to be pushed in law school.

Choosing a major like chemical engineering might have solved that problem.

[whitman]

I think law school is easier to get into a top school. I took 9 AP's, got 5's on most, 3.9 GPA at a top high school, 1530 SAT, worked hard on my essay, and still got denied or wait listed at 9 schools.

[MC Southstar]

middle class --> HYPS --> HYS

Honestly, I'm not that smart, I just have a knack for the admissions game.

In many ways, high school was harder/more work than college, so I'm ready to be pushed in law school.

Choosing a major like chemical engineering might have solved that problem.

This.

[kinch]

I think law school is easier to get into a top school. I took 9 AP's, got 5's on most, 3.9 GPA at a top high school, 1530 SAT, worked hard on my essay, and still got denied or wait listed at 9 schools.

Must've been a 1530 on the new SAT.