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ToTransferOrNot wrote:It's really telling that the faculty at Wisconsin would say you're nuts to go to Wisconsin with a full ride over northwestern at sticker, but whatever floats your boat. I agree with you as far as GULC/Cornell/Duke etc go, because they don' have the cachet in the Midwest, but Northwestern should be a gimmie. Both Northwestern and Michigan do about as well as UoC in Chicago. (See, for example, Mayer Brown's summer class this year: 4 Northwestern, 3 UoC, 3 Michigan, 1 Harvard. How many Wisconsin? 0--and my first callback partner was a freaking Wisconsin grad. How many Wisconsin-market paying SA gigs this year total, all Wisconsin firms included? Probably under 40, and even 40 might be too generous.

No offense, but it's clear that you just are missing some information about the job market. The market is not going to get back to where it was in the mid-2000s any time soon--if it ever does. Wisconsin was ALWAYS a "top 25% even for Wisconsin 'biglaw'" school.

I disagree with a couple of things on this. First of all, comparing UofC to Northwestern and Michigan based strictly on hard numbers is silly. Chicago will always have lower numbers, mostly due to the fact they have much smaller class sizes. Secondly, some of Northwestern's job finding statistics are inflated due to the fact that most of their grads already had work experience.

Chicago is the king of the Midwest. It's on a (slightly) different level than Northwestern.

And your last line about the job market assumes that I care/want big law. Part of the reason going to school FOR FREE would be so that I wouldn't have to slave at big law for a couple of years to work that debt off.

And no offense to you or Wisconsin's faculty, but you nor they know what I want out of law school. A degree from the best school of WI for free would enable me to shack up in WI and get a decent job with no debt. Sounds good to me.

JollyGreenGiant wrote:

ToTransferOrNot wrote:It's really telling that the faculty at Wisconsin would say you're nuts to go to Wisconsin with a full ride over northwestern at sticker, but whatever floats your boat. I agree with you as far as GULC/Cornell/Duke etc go, because they don' have the cachet in the Midwest, but Northwestern should be a gimmie. Both Northwestern and Michigan do about as well as UoC in Chicago. (See, for example, Mayer Brown's summer class this year: 4 Northwestern, 3 UoC, 3 Michigan, 1 Harvard. How many Wisconsin? 0--and my first callback partner was a freaking Wisconsin grad. How many Wisconsin-market paying SA gigs this year total, all Wisconsin firms included? Probably under 40, and even 40 might be too generous.

No offense, but it's clear that you just are missing some information about the job market. The market is not going to get back to where it was in the mid-2000s any time soon--if it ever does. Wisconsin was ALWAYS a "top 25% even for Wisconsin 'biglaw'" school.

I disagree with a couple of things on this. First of all, comparing UofC to Northwestern and Michigan based strictly on hard numbers is silly. Chicago will always have lower numbers, mostly due to the fact they have much smaller class sizes. Secondly, some of Northwestern's job finding statistics are inflated due to the fact that most of their grads already had work experience.

Chicago is the king of the Midwest. It's on a (slightly) different level than Northwestern.

And your last line about the job market assumes that I care/want big law. Part of the reason going to school FOR FREE would be so that I wouldn't have to slave at big law for a couple of years to work that debt off.

And no offense to you or Wisconsin's faculty, but you nor they know what I want out of law school. A degree from the best school of WI for free would enable me to shack up in WI and get a decent job with no debt. Sounds good to me.

Therein lies the assumption that sinks your argument.

You can disagree with my statements all you like, but given that I have first-hand experience with what I'm talking about (afterall, I did transfer out of Wisconsin in to Chicago, and I know people at the top of the class who STILL have no idea what they're doing this summer,) if we're just going to talk past each other, I'm honestly standing on more authoritative ground. Do whatever you want to do with your life--it obviously doesn't matter to me--but don't fool yourself about the options that Wisconsin provides, these days.

Also, saying "Northwestern's job placement statistics are inflated because they accept students that place well in to jobs" is... just a ridiculous position. It makes as much sense as saying "Harvard's job placement statistics are inflated because they attract people who are perceived as having a high upside potential."

I take it you go to school at NU?

No, I go to school at the University of Chicago. After having transferred out of Wisconsin. This is why I feel like I have a pretty good grasp on the facts of the ground as they relate to this particular discussion, heh.

Edit: I'm not saying that Chicago isn't on a different level than Northwestern. However, a lot of that is reflected in national placement, not midwest placement. You shouldn't underestimate the strength that Northwestern pulls from its alumni base in the Chicago area.

Edit 2: I should point out, my statements about the opinions from Wisconsin faculty are not speculation. I discussed the transfer process with them. I was told point-blank by EVERY FACULTY MEMBER I spoke to--including 2 deans--that staying at Wisconsin would have been nuts, with Northwestern, Michigan, or UChicago on the plate.

Isn't that 1L job placement looking towards people who want biglaw jobs? I don't understrand OCIs as much.

BTW, PM sent.

JollyGreenGiant wrote:Isn't that 1L job placement looking towards people who want biglaw jobs? I don't understrand OCIs as much.

BTW, PM sent.

I am a 1L at Wisconsin in the top 15%. If you are a white male non IP there is literally one midlaw job available. Like to transfer or not, I've seen plenty of 2Ls strike out in terrible terrible ways. That said, this is part of the problem everywhere. Unless you are going to the t14 job prospects are bleak and I would strongly suggest waiting.

If you have those numbers, defer at Northwestern and get some 'real life experience,' they should eat that up. Graduate into a better market from a better school, you'll thank me later.

Again, with IBR there is no reason at all to not go to Northwestern over Wisconsin. If you aren't doing biglaw, the government is covering your loans anyway so you might as well go to the best school possible.

Damn, I didn't realize top 15% got nothing. Were they looking inside Wisconsin? I mean, isn't WI known for not having enough lawyers?

JollyGreenGiant wrote:Damn, I didn't realize top 15% got nothing. Were they looking inside Wisconsin? I mean, isn't WI known for not having enough lawyers?

I'm looking inside Wisconsin primarily, it's a lot better here than it is in most places. I just don't think you guys realize how bad the economy is for lawyers universally. The t14 is having a hard time, and when that's happening it's bad news down the entire food chain.

If you are in Northwestern, I'd go. It's not a matter of 'quality of job' anymore so much as 'will you be employed'

JollyGreenGiant wrote:Damn, I didn't realize top 15% got nothing. Were they looking inside Wisconsin? I mean, isn't WI known for not having enough lawyers?

This isn't specific to Wisconsin. Nationwide there was a fraction of "normal" summer associate hiring, let alone what people had started to expect in 2007-08 (before the financial collapse). I'm sure there's still something for people to do this summer, but as far as automatic/likely permanent job positions...no.

If you really want depressing, look at what happened at Notre Dame.

Simpler Times wrote:I am a 1L at Wisconsin in the top 15%. If you are a white male non IP there is literally one midlaw job available.

Since you mentioned IP and that's what I Plan to focus on (since I have a Bio PhD), have you heard how the students in IP are fairing in their searches?

JollyGreenGiant wrote:Damn, I didn't realize top 15% got nothing. Were they looking inside Wisconsin? I mean, isn't WI known for not having enough lawyers?

It's a lot worse than top 15%. I was top 3% and didn't get any summer job offers until April--and those were unpaid.

But how did 2Ls fare?

JollyGreenGiant wrote:But how did 2Ls fare?

ToTransferOrNot is a 2L, I'm pretty good friends with someone a couple ranks below him (top 5%) who got no offered at OCI and then ended up getting a job through a resume bank or something.

My understanding is that people in the middle of the pack did pretty well as midlaw had not been hit that hard, but those aiming for biglaw had serious serious problems.

E: and that's why you go to Wisconsin, we actually have a midlaw to aim for when biglaw breaks down.

Simpler Times wrote:

JollyGreenGiant wrote:But how did 2Ls fare?

ToTransferOrNot is a 2L, I'm pretty good friends with someone a couple ranks below him (top 5%) who got no offered at OCI and then ended up getting a job through a resume bank or something.

My understanding is that people in the middle of the pack did pretty well as midlaw had not been hit that hard, but those aiming for biglaw had serious serious problems.

E: and that's why you go to Wisconsin, we actually have a midlaw to aim for when biglaw breaks down.

Which is why I'm pulling for a scholly.

JollyGreenGiant wrote:

Simpler Times wrote:

JollyGreenGiant wrote:But how did 2Ls fare?

ToTransferOrNot is a 2L, I'm pretty good friends with someone a couple ranks below him (top 5%) who got no offered at OCI and then ended up getting a job through a resume bank or something.

My understanding is that people in the middle of the pack did pretty well as midlaw had not been hit that hard, but those aiming for biglaw had serious serious problems.

E: and that's why you go to Wisconsin, we actually have a midlaw to aim for when biglaw breaks down.

Which is why I'm pulling for a scholly.

I'm just trying to save you from the mistakes that I made. I would recommend Wisconsin over literally every school but UT/Vanderbilt/UCLA and up, but if you have those options aim for them.


As for the guy talking about IP, Western District of Wisconsin is a pretty big IP market and they're still hiring for it. Although I would still urge you to wait two years before going to law school, there are less colossal mistakes you can make.

E: and that's why you go to Wisconsin, we actually have a midlaw to aim for when biglaw breaks down.

Midlaw in the Midwest is not exactly a bad outcome, particularly if you are from there. You don't have to deal with a high COL anywhere in the Midwest. That actually includes Chicago if you aren't incredibly insistent that you must live on the lakeshore or something like that.

As far as 1L summer work that's paid enough to make any relocation worthwhile - that doesn't exist nationwide anymore. Not for general non-diversity, non-IP, non-$$$$connections law students. It's probably not going to exist ever again; it never used to.

I'd love to know about this Wisconsin Midlaw market. What are you considering Midlaw? Most people would consider Whyte, Reinhardt and so on midlaw. Unfortunately, when you consider that Whyte only took 4 people this year, and they're doing better than the rest of their peer firms...

Basically, in Wisconsin, you have Foley (which, of the V100 firms, is perhaps tied for being in the worst shape, because they overpaid and overstaffed the Milwaukee office for years,) --> Q&B (no summer program this year) -->WHD and the rest of the 'midlaw'-type firms.

ToTransferOrNot wrote:I'd love to know about this Wisconsin Midlaw market. What are you considering Midlaw? Most people would consider Whyte, Reinhardt and so on midlaw. Unfortunately, when you consider that Whyte only took 4 people this year, and they're doing better than the rest of their peer firms...

He's probably meaning firms with 15-50 lawyers or something similar. Most in Wisconsin won't pay Milwaukee market associate salaries but since Milwaukee market was one of the, if not the highest COL pay markets in the country, that's not really important. The only competitors I can think of would be Austin and Atlanta because of dirt cheap real estate.

Of course, most summer positions at firms of this size are not going to pay you associate salaries (which, of course, you're not earning at *any* firm) and usually mean a job waiting for you at graduation, either.

ToTransferOrNot wrote:I'd love to know about this Wisconsin Midlaw market. What are you considering Midlaw? Most people would consider Whyte, Reinhardt and so on midlaw. Unfortunately, when you consider that Whyte only took 4 people this year, and they're doing better than the rest of their peer firms...

Basically, in Wisconsin, you have Foley (which, of the V100 firms, is perhaps tied for being in the worst shape, because they overpaid and overstaffed the Milwaukee office for years,) --> Q&B (no summer program this year) -->WHD and the rest of the 'midlaw'-type firms.

I would classify Quarles, Godfrey, Michael Best, & Foley as 'biglaw' (although some in other states would classify them as midlaw or something like that). Firms like Boardman, Axley, Dewitt and other firms like that constitute midlaw. There are also some pretty decent sized firms upstate (specifically in the Fox Valley). None of these firms are going to pay market, and many of them will not clear 75k for an associate, but getting your start in the sticks for acceptable but not good pay is not the end of the world, especially in this economy.

Again, after OCI completed I talked to a bunch of 2Ls and those going into midsized firms, especially midsized firms not attached to Milwaukee and Madison did curiously well. I'm not sure if that will carry out for my class, and honestly I'm panicking (as I should), but Wisconsin is decent at getting its students acceptable if not good jobs.

Well, to be honest, most people really would consider legal jobs in Wisconsin outside of Madison/Milwaukee to be flat-out awful: the legal work being done is not high-level work, the lifestyle of small-town Wisconsin is not for most law-school-bound people, etc. Now, it's obviously better than being unemployed. For folks who WANT the small-town Wisconsin lifestyle, obviously Wisconsin is a great school.

I can buy calling G&K "biglaw," though it would obviously be considered midlaw in any non-tertiary market; same for MB&F. Q&B is obviously Biglaw, and I don't think anyone would dispute putting Foley in the biglaw camp, considering it is V100.

But calling Boardman midlaw? It has two offices--one in Madison, one in Baraboo--and 46 total attorneys, including partners. That's an awfully low bar for midlaw. Dewitt has ~90 attorneys, so maybe that's getting there. WHD is midlaw.


But again, tally up all of the positions available at these firms. You are going to come up with a REALLY small number. Q&B will probably do a summer program again next year, but how many people will they take? How many will WHD take? If Mayer Brown-Chicago only took 11 people for this summer, how many people do you think Foley-Milwaukee, with its ridiculously over-staffed office, took?

Like I said, I love UW, but you really can't look too highly at prospects coming out of there right now. You need to keep in mind, also, that the Marquette alumni base does show significant loyalty to its grads. Wisconsin is not the only game in town, as far as Wisconsin legal jobs go--ESPECIALLY in Milwaukee small/mid-law.

Nightrunner wrote:this thread is frightening me on a number of levels

Me, too! Let's have a whole mess 'o cocktails and work this thing out...

ToTransferOrNot wrote:Well, to be honest, most people really would consider legal jobs in Wisconsin outside of Madison/Milwaukee to be flat-out awful: the legal work being done is not high-level work, the lifestyle of small-town Wisconsin is not for most law-school-bound people, etc. Now, it's obviously better than being unemployed. For folks who WANT the small-town Wisconsin lifestyle, obviously Wisconsin is a great school.

I can buy calling G&K "biglaw," though it would obviously be considered midlaw in any non-tertiary market; same for MB&F. Q&B is obviously Biglaw, and I don't think anyone would dispute putting Foley in the biglaw camp, considering it is V100.

But calling Boardman midlaw? It has two offices--one in Madison, one in Baraboo--and 46 total attorneys, including partners. That's an awfully low bar for midlaw. Dewitt has ~90 attorneys, so maybe that's getting there. WHD is midlaw.


But again, tally up all of the positions available at these firms. You are going to come up with a REALLY small number. Q&B will probably do a summer program again next year, but how many people will they take? How many will WHD take? If Mayer Brown-Chicago only took 11 people for this summer, how many people do you think Foley-Milwaukee, with its ridiculously over-staffed office, took?

Like I said, I love UW, but you really can't look too highly at prospects coming out of there right now. You need to keep in mind, also, that the Marquette alumni base does show significant loyalty to its grads. Wisconsin is not the only game in town, as far as Wisconsin legal jobs go--ESPECIALLY in Milwaukee small/mid-law.

I guess the difference is that what I classify as midlaw is 'not toilet law and not big law.' Firms with over 25 people aren't usually terrible sweatshops where you don't make minimum wage. They won't pay market, but I don't expect market and I couldn't count on expecting market even in a good economy.

I think that compared to other schools in our range, Wisconsin is probably the best bet, but if I could escape to a good t14 like you did I would in a second.

Nightrunner wrote:

Slimpee wrote:

Nightrunner wrote:this thread is frightening me on a number of levels

Me, too! Let's have a whole mess 'o cocktails and work this thing out...

You get in yet, Slim? I haven't been monitoring the threads like I should.

No

Congrats! Any chance you'll end up in Madison?

Great! I'm very happy for you. I too have full schollys at higher ranked schools, but I would give them up in a second for UW. Unfortunately, as discussed earlier in this thread, I had no shot at getting big money there.