Money at Wisconsin Forum

[Vincent Vega]

Not saying I have any regrets or anything - just stating the facts.

[Vincent Vega]

Meh - I've committed elsewhere. I do love Madison, though.

[blurbz]

I got a full tuition scholarship today!

Congratulations! That's wonderful!

Did you fill out fafsa + send in tax returns already?

I filled out the fafsa, but I haven't done the taxes yet--Is that going to delay me?

[JollyGreenGiant]

Wisconsin was ALWAYS a "top 25% even for Wisconsin 'biglaw'" school.

Time to re-address this with the new data showing that Wisco placed 25% of their class in the top 250 firms. Even schools in the CCN placed only around 50%.

Are you sure you aren't discounting Wisco? You know better than me. Would I be silly to take a (near) full ride at Wisco over sticker at Chicago?

[ToTransferOrNot]

Wisconsin was ALWAYS a "top 25% even for Wisconsin 'biglaw'" school.

Time to re-address this with the new data showing that Wisco placed 25% of their class in the top 250 firms. Even schools in the CCN placed only around 50%.

Are you sure you aren't discounting Wisco? You know better than me. Would I be silly to take a (near) full ride at Wisco over sticker at Chicago?

Link to new data and I'll get back to you about re-assessing after final exams are done for the quarter (so, after next week)

[Simpler Times]

Wisconsin was ALWAYS a "top 25% even for Wisconsin 'biglaw'" school.

Time to re-address this with the new data showing that Wisco placed 25% of their class in the top 250 firms. Even schools in the CCN placed only around 50%.

Are you sure you aren't discounting Wisco? You know better than me. Would I be silly to take a (near) full ride at Wisco over sticker at Chicago?

Depends upon how debt adverse you are and what kind of firm job you consider biglaw. As To Transfer or Not and I have been arguing about, many of the Wisconsin firms place very lowly in the Vault 250. Additionally, in this economy the number of students you see placing is going to slip like crazy. The 2009 number show how Madison places in an average year, but we really did struggle in 2L OCI last year.

That said, many of the lower Vault firms, if you're willing to work for them, are supposed to generate a much better (more tolerable) experience than a Vault10 or something ridiculous like that. As for top 25%, probably for Foley - but I know that Michael Best's cutoff is top 1/3.

So, in a better market I wouldn't be able to answer you. Wisconsin for near free vs. Chicago would be a tough choice. In this market, although I absolutely love Wisconsin I would probably tell you to go to Chicago.

[JollyGreenGiant]

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1

[ToTransferOrNot]

Not without knowing more information (i.e., what year hiring are they talking about?)

Further, keep in mind, that 50% number you see for Chicago? Doesn't account for high-level clerkships and so on.

Also, as far as Michael Best's cutoff being top 1/3: I would be willing to put $1k on the proposition that whoever Michael Best hired as an SA this year was top 10-15%, unless they were a URM hire. I'm not even kidding on this point--if someone takes the bet (only 1 person,) I will do the research and find out who Michael Best hired for the SA program.

Michael Best isn't exactly the top of the legal world, either, heh. People really discount the fact that not all "biglaw" firms are created equal, once you're past the first year or two of doc review.

Anyway, without knowing more about how and when that data was collected, it is completely worthless.

[BobDole34]

Not without knowing more information (i.e., what year hiring are they talking about?)

Further, keep in mind, that 50% number you see for Chicago? Doesn't account for high-level clerkships and so on.

Also, as far as Michael Best's cutoff being top 1/3: I would be willing to put $1k on the proposition that whoever Michael Best hired as an SA this year was top 10-15%, unless they were a URM hire. I'm not even kidding on this point--if someone takes the bet (only 1 person,) I will do the research and find out who Michael Best hired for the SA program.

Michael Best isn't exactly the top of the legal world, either, heh. People really discount the fact that not all "biglaw" firms are created equal, once you're past the first year or two of doc review.

Anyway, without knowing more about how and when that data was collected, it is completely worthless.

I recognize the specific question at hand was Wisconsin v Chicago. I won't get into that debate using the new NLJ250 numbers. The more salient point from the data is that Wisconsin vs peers like Illinois and WashU sees little difference. I'm not going to get into a cock measuring contest about what firms are better (even though I agree with your assertion). But when you're not a t6 admit ITE, a firm ranked 200 is still looking good. Especially when your peers at surrounding schools won't have better options.

Edit: lol @ law students being picky about firms (almost every NLJ250 firm pays 100K+ btw, not all, but many) ITE.

[ToTransferOrNot]

Not without knowing more information (i.e., what year hiring are they talking about?)

Further, keep in mind, that 50% number you see for Chicago? Doesn't account for high-level clerkships and so on.

Also, as far as Michael Best's cutoff being top 1/3: I would be willing to put $1k on the proposition that whoever Michael Best hired as an SA this year was top 10-15%, unless they were a URM hire. I'm not even kidding on this point--if someone takes the bet (only 1 person,) I will do the research and find out who Michael Best hired for the SA program.

Michael Best isn't exactly the top of the legal world, either, heh. People really discount the fact that not all "biglaw" firms are created equal, once you're past the first year or two of doc review.

Anyway, without knowing more about how and when that data was collected, it is completely worthless.

The more salient point is that Wisconsin vs peers like Illinois and WashU sees little difference. I'm not going to get into a cock measuring contest about what firms are better (even though I agree with your assertion). But when you're not a t6 admit ITE, a firm ranked 200 is still looking good. Especially when your peers at surrounding schools won't have better options.

Edit: lol @ law students being picky about firms (almost every NLJ250 firm pays 100K+ btw, not all, but many) ITE.

Er, I don't think anyone was arguing that Wisconsin does any worse than its peer schools. The conversation that was going on was whether full money at Wisconsin is worth turning down a Chicago admit--that is a very different conversation.

[BobDole34]

literally just edited my post after reading the rest of the thread - got in a few seconds after your post. sorry man.

[ToTransferOrNot]

It's no problem.

By the way, when I talk about "better", this goes beyond considerations of "prestige." The type of work that Michael Best does is very, very different from the type of work that a Foley & Lardner does. It's not a matter of being picky--obviously, if your choice is Michael Best or nothing, you take Michael Best.

However, if you are having a discussion about "Ok, Wisconsin full ride vs Chicago", it is one thing to say "well, if you're toward the top of the class at Wisconsin, you'll get a firm job, just like you would at Chicago." That really is over-simplifying though. Michael Best doesn't give you nearly the exit options at the "up or out" stage. WHD isn't going to get you the same litigation experience that Mayer is, and it is going to be a lot tougher to lateral in to an Eimer Stahl, one of the really elite malpractice firms (I'm talking the specialist firms that biglaw firms hire to defend against malpractice suits--very specialized, very interesting, very good pay). It's going to be a lot harder to go from a Q&B to high level government work than it would be to do the same jump from a K&E--and what it comes down to is that, full ride or not, a Wisconsin student at the top of the class isn't going to get a legitimate look at Mayer [I say that from person experience--during my Mayer callback, the Wisconsin grad partner said that my resume probably wouldn't have gotten me even an initial interview, had I stayed at Wisconsin], Jenner, Kirkland, Skadden, Latham, Sidley, etc, for quite some time. Ignoring that just isn't a good idea.

And this is just talking about direct-to-biglaw. Once you account for the clerk-to-biglaw doors that Wisconsin over Chicago closes...

So, if someone is ABSOLUTELY SURE that they want to work in Milwaukee for the rest of their life, and they're OK with the reality that Foley may be out of the range of all but the VERY top Wisconsin students for many years (they're going to have their pick of Chicago/Michigan/NU students for the foreseeable future), then... and only then... might the full ride at Wisconsin truly make sense.