UVA vs. Duke

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quakeroats
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Re: UVA vs. Duke

Postby quakeroats » Sun Oct 24, 2010 11:35 am

RVP11 wrote:
quakeroats wrote:Why would you make this decision based on anything other than placement? Clerkship data below:

http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog ... news-.html


You make the decision based on things other than placement when the schools place just about identically. It's like picking law firms; no one picks between Skadden and STB, for example, based on exit opportunities or prestige. And no one should pick among M, V, P, D, etc. based on their perceived chances of a federal clerkship or a BigLaw job.

LOL at a 1.2% difference in ONE YEAR meaning anything. That's like 2-3 people deciding they'd rather take $160k than a district court clerkship in a given year. And clerkship hiring is random - not everyone tries for it, some people only want corporate work, some people could easily get district court clerkships but don't want to move to Kansas for it, etc.

You're splitting hairs here, man. There are tons of things that would be better use of your time than finding placement differences among peer law schools. Leave this stuff to nerdy 0Ls and this one random prof in Cincinnati.


You're arguing in a vacuum. Clerkship data is one piece of the overall picture I've gone over several times. To sum it up:

1. If you want the best career options after law school (New York or D.C. Big Law, California and Texas placement, AIII Clerkships) you should choose Duke over UVA. I haven't looked at government positions, because they don't interest me, but I suspect the trend holds there as well based on what I've heard and read.

2. The differences are much greater when you compare placement at top law firms than AIII clerkships

3. The differences aren't as big as for those choosing Michigan over Duke and UVA. When I compiled my original data of V10 NYC placement, UVA actually does better than its USNWR ranking. Although Duke does even better (around 34 percent), better is better. Michigan has the problem of relying on New York as it's major market and doing worse than its ranking would suggest in placing there. Knowing that you getting more than you should have is fine, even if someone else gets more still. What sucks is thinking you're getting a lot more (Michigan) and getting much less than you thought. To put an even finer point on it: don't go to Michigan.

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quakeroats
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Re: UVA vs. Duke

Postby quakeroats » Sun Oct 24, 2010 11:50 am

irishman86 wrote:
RVP11 wrote:
quakeroats wrote:Why would you make this decision based on anything other than placement? Clerkship data below:

http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog ... news-.html


You make the decision based on things other than placement when the schools place just about identically. It's like picking law firms; no one picks between Skadden and STB, for example, based on exit opportunities or prestige. And no one should pick among M, V, P, D, etc. based on their perceived chances of a federal clerkship or a BigLaw job.

LOL at a 1.2% difference in ONE YEAR meaning anything. That's like 2-3 people deciding they'd rather take $160k than a district court clerkship in a given year. And clerkship hiring is random - not everyone tries for it, some people only want corporate work, some people could easily get district court clerkships but don't want to move to Kansas for it, etc.

You're splitting hairs here, man. There are tons of things that would be better use of your time than finding placement differences among peer law schools. Leave this stuff to nerdy 0Ls and this one random prof in Cincinnati.


Not to mention the previous year D placed fewer percentage-wise into Article III clerkships than M and V...aka one year's data doesn't really say anything.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=75513

The difference seems to be one in what we're talking about (and whether the TLS compiler's data should be relied on). Here's the original data from USNWR:

http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... iii_clerks

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vamedic03
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Re: UVA vs. Duke

Postby vamedic03 » Sun Oct 24, 2010 8:08 pm

quakeroats wrote:
RVP11 wrote:
quakeroats wrote:Why would you make this decision based on anything other than placement? Clerkship data below:

http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog ... news-.html


You make the decision based on things other than placement when the schools place just about identically. It's like picking law firms; no one picks between Skadden and STB, for example, based on exit opportunities or prestige. And no one should pick among M, V, P, D, etc. based on their perceived chances of a federal clerkship or a BigLaw job.

LOL at a 1.2% difference in ONE YEAR meaning anything. That's like 2-3 people deciding they'd rather take $160k than a district court clerkship in a given year. And clerkship hiring is random - not everyone tries for it, some people only want corporate work, some people could easily get district court clerkships but don't want to move to Kansas for it, etc.

You're splitting hairs here, man. There are tons of things that would be better use of your time than finding placement differences among peer law schools. Leave this stuff to nerdy 0Ls and this one random prof in Cincinnati.


You're arguing in a vacuum. Clerkship data is one piece of the overall picture I've gone over several times. To sum it up:

1. If you want the best career options after law school (New York or D.C. Big Law, California and Texas placement, AIII Clerkships) you should choose Duke over UVA. I haven't looked at government positions, because they don't interest me, but I suspect the trend holds there as well based on what I've heard and read.

2. The differences are much greater when you compare placement at top law firms than AIII clerkships

3. The differences aren't as big as for those choosing Michigan over Duke and UVA. When I compiled my original data of V10 NYC placement, UVA actually does better than its USNWR ranking. Although Duke does even better (around 34 percent), better is better. Michigan has the problem of relying on New York as it's major market and doing worse than its ranking would suggest in placing there. Knowing that you getting more than you should have is fine, even if someone else gets more still. What sucks is thinking you're getting a lot more (Michigan) and getting much less than you thought. To put an even finer point on it: don't go to Michigan.


We just went through your bullshit a few months ago. Here's the truth:

1) Duke and Virginia, for the most part, are peer schools

2) Duke and Virginia have similar placement

3) Any pitiful trolling by Quakeroats doesn't change this;

Here's the problem with his 'analysis':

The guy goes to websites and counts up the number of associates at a firm. He doesn't take into account the key factor - associate placement per year. Instead, he uses essentially arbitrary numbers with too many unaccounted for factors. Oh, and he tries to dress it up with simplistic spread sheet math. Try running a statistical analysis buddy.

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quakeroats
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Re: UVA vs. Duke

Postby quakeroats » Mon Oct 25, 2010 7:45 am

vamedic03 wrote:
quakeroats wrote:
RVP11 wrote:
quakeroats wrote:Why would you make this decision based on anything other than placement? Clerkship data below:

http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog ... news-.html


You make the decision based on things other than placement when the schools place just about identically. It's like picking law firms; no one picks between Skadden and STB, for example, based on exit opportunities or prestige. And no one should pick among M, V, P, D, etc. based on their perceived chances of a federal clerkship or a BigLaw job.

LOL at a 1.2% difference in ONE YEAR meaning anything. That's like 2-3 people deciding they'd rather take $160k than a district court clerkship in a given year. And clerkship hiring is random - not everyone tries for it, some people only want corporate work, some people could easily get district court clerkships but don't want to move to Kansas for it, etc.

You're splitting hairs here, man. There are tons of things that would be better use of your time than finding placement differences among peer law schools. Leave this stuff to nerdy 0Ls and this one random prof in Cincinnati.


You're arguing in a vacuum. Clerkship data is one piece of the overall picture I've gone over several times. To sum it up:

1. If you want the best career options after law school (New York or D.C. Big Law, California and Texas placement, AIII Clerkships) you should choose Duke over UVA. I haven't looked at government positions, because they don't interest me, but I suspect the trend holds there as well based on what I've heard and read.

2. The differences are much greater when you compare placement at top law firms than AIII clerkships

3. The differences aren't as big as for those choosing Michigan over Duke and UVA. When I compiled my original data of V10 NYC placement, UVA actually does better than its USNWR ranking. Although Duke does even better (around 34 percent), better is better. Michigan has the problem of relying on New York as it's major market and doing worse than its ranking would suggest in placing there. Knowing that you getting more than you should have is fine, even if someone else gets more still. What sucks is thinking you're getting a lot more (Michigan) and getting much less than you thought. To put an even finer point on it: don't go to Michigan.


We just went through your bullshit a few months ago. Here's the truth:

1) Duke and Virginia, for the most part, are peer schools

2) Duke and Virginia have similar placement

3) Any pitiful trolling by Quakeroats doesn't change this;

Here's the problem with his 'analysis':

The guy goes to websites and counts up the number of associates at a firm. He doesn't take into account the key factor - associate placement per year. Instead, he uses essentially arbitrary numbers with too many unaccounted for factors. Oh, and he tries to dress it up with simplistic spread sheet math. Try running a statistical analysis buddy.


UVA doesn't release yearly data, and goes as far as to provide most of its stats in the form of a three-year trend. Although Duke does release full yearly data, UVA's lack of disclosure, requires a different, and less accurate methodology. I've gone over the various issues with counting as I have, and will readily agree that it isn't as useful as it could be (remember which school is at fault and why that might be). What's silly is that you reject anything that can't give perfect clarity, which is akin to rejecting everything. Oh, and lol on the "simple spreadsheet math."

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vamedic03
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Re: UVA vs. Duke

Postby vamedic03 » Mon Oct 25, 2010 5:30 pm

quakeroats wrote:
UVA doesn't release yearly data, and goes as far as to provide most of its stats in the form of a three-year trend. Although Duke does release full yearly data, UVA's lack of disclosure, requires a different, and less accurate methodology. I've gone over the various issues with counting as I have, and will readily agree that it isn't as useful as it could be (remember which school is at fault and why that might be). What's silly is that you reject anything that can't give perfect clarity, which is akin to rejecting everything. Oh, and lol on the "simple spreadsheet math."


No, I reject your baseless conclusions that boil down to this: "Duke is a clearly superior law school because I can generate a few percentages." In truth, you are trolling for Duke and you're attempting to justify your baseless trolling by generating some percentages.

Again, UVA and Duke (along with Northwestern and Michigan and Penn) are all peer schools. What that means is as follows:

1) If you do exceedingly well, you'll have amazing opportunities and many, many doors opened for you.

2) If you do well, you'll have great opportunities.

3) If you end up at median, you'll have opportunities, however, it'll take a lot of footwork.

If you want to work in DC, do well at any of these schools and you'll get a job with a great firm. Same goes for any other market and same goes for the majority of Article III clerkships. I think the only exception to this is as follows - if you fall in the top 3-4% of your class at these schools, UVA will probably give you a slightly better shot at a SCOTUS clerkship because of the connections that the school has developed with feeder judges. That said, it would be absolutely ridiculous to choose your law school based on the miniscule odds of that situation applying to you.

The take home is this - law school is hard and the legal market is still rough. When it comes down to choosing which school to go to, especially UVA versus its peer schools, pick the school that makes you happy. The place that you're happy at will be the place that gives you the best odds of doing well.

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Re: UVA vs. Duke

Postby quakeroats » Mon Oct 25, 2010 6:16 pm

vamedic03 wrote:
quakeroats wrote:
UVA doesn't release yearly data, and goes as far as to provide most of its stats in the form of a three-year trend. Although Duke does release full yearly data, UVA's lack of disclosure, requires a different, and less accurate methodology. I've gone over the various issues with counting as I have, and will readily agree that it isn't as useful as it could be (remember which school is at fault and why that might be). What's silly is that you reject anything that can't give perfect clarity, which is akin to rejecting everything. Oh, and lol on the "simple spreadsheet math."


No, I reject your baseless conclusions that boil down to this: "Duke is a clearly superior law school because I can generate a few percentages." In truth, you are trolling for Duke and you're attempting to justify your baseless trolling by generating some percentages.

Again, UVA and Duke (along with Northwestern and Michigan and Penn) are all peer schools. What that means is as follows:

1) If you do exceedingly well, you'll have amazing opportunities and many, many doors opened for you.

2) If you do well, you'll have great opportunities.

3) If you end up at median, you'll have opportunities, however, it'll take a lot of footwork.

If you want to work in DC, do well at any of these schools and you'll get a job with a great firm. Same goes for any other market and same goes for the majority of Article III clerkships. I think the only exception to this is as follows - if you fall in the top 3-4% of your class at these schools, UVA will probably give you a slightly better shot at a SCOTUS clerkship because of the connections that the school has developed with feeder judges. That said, it would be absolutely ridiculous to choose your law school based on the miniscule odds of that situation applying to you.

The take home is this - law school is hard and the legal market is still rough. When it comes down to choosing which school to go to, especially UVA versus its peer schools, pick the school that makes you happy. The place that you're happy at will be the place that gives you the best odds of doing well.


I think we can leave it at these last few posts. The contrast between our perspectives is clear enough for those I'm interested in convincing to draw a reasonable conclusion.

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vamedic03
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Re: UVA vs. Duke

Postby vamedic03 » Mon Oct 25, 2010 6:20 pm

quakeroats wrote:
vamedic03 wrote:
quakeroats wrote:
UVA doesn't release yearly data, and goes as far as to provide most of its stats in the form of a three-year trend. Although Duke does release full yearly data, UVA's lack of disclosure, requires a different, and less accurate methodology. I've gone over the various issues with counting as I have, and will readily agree that it isn't as useful as it could be (remember which school is at fault and why that might be). What's silly is that you reject anything that can't give perfect clarity, which is akin to rejecting everything. Oh, and lol on the "simple spreadsheet math."


No, I reject your baseless conclusions that boil down to this: "Duke is a clearly superior law school because I can generate a few percentages." In truth, you are trolling for Duke and you're attempting to justify your baseless trolling by generating some percentages.

Again, UVA and Duke (along with Northwestern and Michigan and Penn) are all peer schools. What that means is as follows:

1) If you do exceedingly well, you'll have amazing opportunities and many, many doors opened for you.

2) If you do well, you'll have great opportunities.

3) If you end up at median, you'll have opportunities, however, it'll take a lot of footwork.

If you want to work in DC, do well at any of these schools and you'll get a job with a great firm. Same goes for any other market and same goes for the majority of Article III clerkships. I think the only exception to this is as follows - if you fall in the top 3-4% of your class at these schools, UVA will probably give you a slightly better shot at a SCOTUS clerkship because of the connections that the school has developed with feeder judges. That said, it would be absolutely ridiculous to choose your law school based on the miniscule odds of that situation applying to you.

The take home is this - law school is hard and the legal market is still rough. When it comes down to choosing which school to go to, especially UVA versus its peer schools, pick the school that makes you happy. The place that you're happy at will be the place that gives you the best odds of doing well.


I think we can leave it at these last few posts. The contrast between our perspectives is clear enough for those I'm interested in convincing to draw a reasonable conclusion.


I'm sure you'll be back at the trolling in a couple months.

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Tanicius
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Re: UVA vs. Duke

Postby Tanicius » Mon Oct 25, 2010 7:24 pm

Believe it or not this thread is actually quite helpful for an 0L like me. Duke's the only acceptance I have atm, so it's a moot point to be comparing schools in earnest, but I was not aware Duke had as high a regard as MVP.

Would any of you be able to comment on distinctions between Duke and UVA's public interest stuff? From what I've researched, UVA seems to have a leg up in this department, especially when it concerns criminal law opportunities, though I'm going data-blind and am looking only at clinics and LRAP funding.

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Re: UVA vs. Duke

Postby FlightoftheEarls » Mon Oct 25, 2010 8:18 pm

vamedic03 wrote:
quakeroats wrote:
vamedic03 wrote:
quakeroats wrote:
UVA doesn't release yearly data, and goes as far as to provide most of its stats in the form of a three-year trend. Although Duke does release full yearly data, UVA's lack of disclosure, requires a different, and less accurate methodology. I've gone over the various issues with counting as I have, and will readily agree that it isn't as useful as it could be (remember which school is at fault and why that might be). What's silly is that you reject anything that can't give perfect clarity, which is akin to rejecting everything. Oh, and lol on the "simple spreadsheet math."


No, I reject your baseless conclusions that boil down to this: "Duke is a clearly superior law school because I can generate a few percentages." In truth, you are trolling for Duke and you're attempting to justify your baseless trolling by generating some percentages.

Again, UVA and Duke (along with Northwestern and Michigan and Penn) are all peer schools. What that means is as follows:

1) If you do exceedingly well, you'll have amazing opportunities and many, many doors opened for you.

2) If you do well, you'll have great opportunities.

3) If you end up at median, you'll have opportunities, however, it'll take a lot of footwork.

If you want to work in DC, do well at any of these schools and you'll get a job with a great firm. Same goes for any other market and same goes for the majority of Article III clerkships. I think the only exception to this is as follows - if you fall in the top 3-4% of your class at these schools, UVA will probably give you a slightly better shot at a SCOTUS clerkship because of the connections that the school has developed with feeder judges. That said, it would be absolutely ridiculous to choose your law school based on the miniscule odds of that situation applying to you.

The take home is this - law school is hard and the legal market is still rough. When it comes down to choosing which school to go to, especially UVA versus its peer schools, pick the school that makes you happy. The place that you're happy at will be the place that gives you the best odds of doing well.


I think we can leave it at these last few posts. The contrast between our perspectives is clear enough for those I'm interested in convincing to draw a reasonable conclusion.


I'm sure you'll be back at the trolling in a couple months.

I'm not too worried about it - I'm sure these consistent trolling incidents really convince people just how great Duke is. Some of the most respected posters on this board are consistently telling him how ridiculous he sounds, yet he keeps on pushing his statistics by comparing placement within V10 DC firms based on the number of associates on the firm's website. His personality is quite insufferable to boot - quite frankly, it's rather amusing that he actually believes that he is boosting Duke's image. I'm also kinda surprised he hasn't bragged about Duke's superior SCOTUS placement yet, as he did in the trolling escapades a few months ago:

quakeroats wrote:
My favorite stat this year is SCOTUS placements by class size:

Yale: 4%
Harvard and Duke 1-1.5%ish
Everyone else: < 1%

That was just fun.

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blink
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Re: UVA vs. Duke

Postby blink » Mon Oct 25, 2010 8:39 pm

vamedic03 wrote:
quakeroats wrote:
UVA doesn't release yearly data, and goes as far as to provide most of its stats in the form of a three-year trend. Although Duke does release full yearly data, UVA's lack of disclosure, requires a different, and less accurate methodology. I've gone over the various issues with counting as I have, and will readily agree that it isn't as useful as it could be (remember which school is at fault and why that might be). What's silly is that you reject anything that can't give perfect clarity, which is akin to rejecting everything. Oh, and lol on the "simple spreadsheet math."


No, I reject your baseless conclusions that boil down to this: "Duke is a clearly superior law school because I can generate a few percentages." In truth, you are trolling for Duke and you're attempting to justify your baseless trolling by generating some percentages.

Again, UVA and Duke (along with Northwestern and Michigan and Penn) are all peer schools. What that means is as follows:

1) If you do exceedingly well, you'll have amazing opportunities and many, many doors opened for you.

2) If you do well, you'll have great opportunities.

3) If you end up at median, you'll have opportunities, however, it'll take a lot of footwork.

If you want to work in DC, do well at any of these schools and you'll get a job with a great firm. Same goes for any other market and same goes for the majority of Article III clerkships. I think the only exception to this is as follows - if you fall in the top 3-4% of your class at these schools, UVA will probably give you a slightly better shot at a SCOTUS clerkship because of the connections that the school has developed with feeder judges. That said, it would be absolutely ridiculous to choose your law school based on the miniscule odds of that situation applying to you.

The take home is this - law school is hard and the legal market is still rough. When it comes down to choosing which school to go to, especially UVA versus its peer schools, pick the school that makes you happy. The place that you're happy at will be the place that gives you the best odds of doing well.



Game, Set, and Match.

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Re: UVA vs. Duke

Postby AreJay711 » Mon Oct 25, 2010 9:12 pm

If you want to work in DC, do well at any of these schools and you'll get a job with a great firm. Same goes for any other market and same goes for the majority of Article III clerkships. I think the only exception to this is as follows - if you fall in the top 3-4% of your class at these schools, UVA will probably give you a slightly better shot at a SCOTUS clerkship because of the connections that the school has developed with feeder judges. That said, it would be absolutely ridiculous to choose your law school based on the miniscule odds of that situation applying to you.


Yea but if everything else is constant why wouldn't you take the one with higher upside? If you found yourself at the top of your class looking at a decent shot at a SCOTUS clerkship you would wish you attended UVA. Otherwise you will be about the same. I don't think they are the same -- and Idk which I prefer -- but just saying you might as well consider all states of the world.

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Tanicius
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Re: UVA vs. Duke

Postby Tanicius » Mon Oct 25, 2010 9:56 pm

Tanicius wrote:Believe it or not this thread is actually quite helpful for an 0L like me. Duke's the only acceptance I have atm, so it's a moot point to be comparing schools in earnest, but I was not aware Duke had as high a regard as MVP.

Would any of you be able to comment on distinctions between Duke and UVA's public interest stuff? From what I've researched, UVA seems to have a leg up in this department, especially when it concerns criminal law opportunities, though I'm going data-blind and am looking only at clinics and LRAP funding.


Bumping this comment. Really don't care about whether someone is a troll.

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Re: UVA vs. Duke

Postby quakeroats » Mon Oct 25, 2010 9:58 pm

Tanicius wrote:Believe it or not this thread is actually quite helpful for an 0L like me. Duke's the only acceptance I have atm, so it's a moot point to be comparing schools in earnest, but I was not aware Duke had as high a regard as MVP.

Would any of you be able to comment on distinctions between Duke and UVA's public interest stuff? From what I've researched, UVA seems to have a leg up in this department, especially when it concerns criminal law opportunities, though I'm going data-blind and am looking only at clinics and LRAP funding.


http://www.top-law-schools.com/tls-guid ... ginia.html

UVA:
Scenario Two
An unmarried graduate.
Salary: $65,000
Salary less Taxes: ($65,000 - $12,438) = $52,562
Debt: $100,000 on a ten-year repayment plan at 6.8% interest
Yearly Debt Obligation (on ten-year repayment): $13,810
Debt Obligation under IBR: (($65,000 – 1.5*$10,830)*.15) = $7,313
Graduate’s Expected Contribution (estimate): (50% of $7,313) = $3,656
VLFP Award (estimate): $3,657
Take-home Income: ($52,562 - $3,656) = $48,906

http://www.top-law-schools.com/tls-guid ... e-law.html

Duke:
Scenario Two
An unmarried graduate with no undergraduate debt.
Salary: $65,000
Salary less Taxes: ($65,000 - $12,438) = $52,562
Actual Debt: $100,000 on a ten-year repayment plan at 6.8% interest
Actual Yearly Debt Obligation (on ten-year repayment): $13,810
Yearly Debt Obligation on IBR: (($65,000 – 1.5*$10,830)*.15) = $7,313
Graduate’s Expected Contribution (Estimate): (33% of $7,313) = $2,438
LRAP Award (Estimate): ($7,313 - $2,438) = $4,875
Take-home Income: ($52,562 - $2,438) = $50,124

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Tanicius
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Re: UVA vs. Duke

Postby Tanicius » Mon Oct 25, 2010 10:11 pm

quakeroats wrote:
Tanicius wrote:Believe it or not this thread is actually quite helpful for an 0L like me. Duke's the only acceptance I have atm, so it's a moot point to be comparing schools in earnest, but I was not aware Duke had as high a regard as MVP.

Would any of you be able to comment on distinctions between Duke and UVA's public interest stuff? From what I've researched, UVA seems to have a leg up in this department, especially when it concerns criminal law opportunities, though I'm going data-blind and am looking only at clinics and LRAP funding.


http://www.top-law-schools.com/tls-guid ... ginia.html

UVA:
Scenario Two
An unmarried graduate.
Salary: $65,000
Salary less Taxes: ($65,000 - $12,438) = $52,562
Debt: $100,000 on a ten-year repayment plan at 6.8% interest
Yearly Debt Obligation (on ten-year repayment): $13,810
Debt Obligation under IBR: (($65,000 – 1.5*$10,830)*.15) = $7,313
Graduate’s Expected Contribution (estimate): (50% of $7,313) = $3,656
VLFP Award (estimate): $3,657
Take-home Income: ($52,562 - $3,656) = $48,906

http://www.top-law-schools.com/tls-guid ... e-law.html

Duke:
Scenario Two
An unmarried graduate with no undergraduate debt.
Salary: $65,000
Salary less Taxes: ($65,000 - $12,438) = $52,562
Actual Debt: $100,000 on a ten-year repayment plan at 6.8% interest
Actual Yearly Debt Obligation (on ten-year repayment): $13,810
Yearly Debt Obligation on IBR: (($65,000 – 1.5*$10,830)*.15) = $7,313
Graduate’s Expected Contribution (Estimate): (33% of $7,313) = $2,438
LRAP Award (Estimate): ($7,313 - $2,438) = $4,875
Take-home Income: ($52,562 - $2,438) = $50,124



Yes, I can read the LRAP thread. I've heard from Duke, however, that they have a very limited fund and that it always used up every year. Anybody able to weigh in on this? How about tracking placement into prestigious government PI? Does either school have a tangible leg up on the other when it comes to stuff like DOJ Honors placement? What about strength/variety in the actual programs available to take at the school itself?

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quakeroats
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Re: UVA vs. Duke

Postby quakeroats » Mon Oct 25, 2010 11:13 pm

Tanicius wrote:
quakeroats wrote:
Tanicius wrote:Believe it or not this thread is actually quite helpful for an 0L like me. Duke's the only acceptance I have atm, so it's a moot point to be comparing schools in earnest, but I was not aware Duke had as high a regard as MVP.

Would any of you be able to comment on distinctions between Duke and UVA's public interest stuff? From what I've researched, UVA seems to have a leg up in this department, especially when it concerns criminal law opportunities, though I'm going data-blind and am looking only at clinics and LRAP funding.


http://www.top-law-schools.com/tls-guid ... ginia.html

UVA:
Scenario Two
An unmarried graduate.
Salary: $65,000
Salary less Taxes: ($65,000 - $12,438) = $52,562
Debt: $100,000 on a ten-year repayment plan at 6.8% interest
Yearly Debt Obligation (on ten-year repayment): $13,810
Debt Obligation under IBR: (($65,000 – 1.5*$10,830)*.15) = $7,313
Graduate’s Expected Contribution (estimate): (50% of $7,313) = $3,656
VLFP Award (estimate): $3,657
Take-home Income: ($52,562 - $3,656) = $48,906

http://www.top-law-schools.com/tls-guid ... e-law.html

Duke:
Scenario Two
An unmarried graduate with no undergraduate debt.
Salary: $65,000
Salary less Taxes: ($65,000 - $12,438) = $52,562
Actual Debt: $100,000 on a ten-year repayment plan at 6.8% interest
Actual Yearly Debt Obligation (on ten-year repayment): $13,810
Yearly Debt Obligation on IBR: (($65,000 – 1.5*$10,830)*.15) = $7,313
Graduate’s Expected Contribution (Estimate): (33% of $7,313) = $2,438
LRAP Award (Estimate): ($7,313 - $2,438) = $4,875
Take-home Income: ($52,562 - $2,438) = $50,124



Yes, I can read the LRAP thread. I've heard from Duke, however, that they have a very limited fund and that it always used up every year. Anybody able to weigh in on this? How about tracking placement into prestigious government PI? Does either school have a tangible leg up on the other when it comes to stuff like DOJ Honors placement? What about strength/variety in the actual programs available to take at the school itself?


Who did you speak with? I've heard from actual PI grads that it isn't an issue. However, I've done about as much digging here as would befit my interest in Gov/PI work, so you may want to factor that in.

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jawsthegreat
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Re: UVA vs. Duke

Postby jawsthegreat » Tue Oct 26, 2010 11:11 am

If you are choosing between Duke and UVA go to UVA. I promise the fun you will have while at UVA will far outweigh any benefit you might receive from going to Duke.

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UnTouChablE
Posts: 149
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Re: UVA vs. Duke

Postby UnTouChablE » Tue Oct 26, 2010 1:14 pm

vamedic03 wrote:
quakeroats wrote:
UVA doesn't release yearly data, and goes as far as to provide most of its stats in the form of a three-year trend. Although Duke does release full yearly data, UVA's lack of disclosure, requires a different, and less accurate methodology. I've gone over the various issues with counting as I have, and will readily agree that it isn't as useful as it could be (remember which school is at fault and why that might be). What's silly is that you reject anything that can't give perfect clarity, which is akin to rejecting everything. Oh, and lol on the "simple spreadsheet math."


No, I reject your baseless conclusions that boil down to this: "Duke is a clearly superior law school because I can generate a few percentages." In truth, you are trolling for Duke and you're attempting to justify your baseless trolling by generating some percentages.

Again, UVA and Duke (along with Northwestern and Michigan and Penn) are all peer schools. What that means is as follows:

1) If you do exceedingly well, you'll have amazing opportunities and many, many doors opened for you.

2) If you do well, you'll have great opportunities.

3) If you end up at median, you'll have opportunities, however, it'll take a lot of footwork.

If you want to work in DC, do well at any of these schools and you'll get a job with a great firm. Same goes for any other market and same goes for the majority of Article III clerkships. I think the only exception to this is as follows - if you fall in the top 3-4% of your class at these schools, UVA will probably give you a slightly better shot at a SCOTUS clerkship because of the connections that the school has developed with feeder judges. That said, it would be absolutely ridiculous to choose your law school based on the miniscule odds of that situation applying to you.

The take home is this - law school is hard and the legal market is still rough. When it comes down to choosing which school to go to, especially UVA versus its peer schools, pick the school that makes you happy. The place that you're happy at will be the place that gives you the best odds of doing well.


Quakeroats is KILLING this dude. Vamedic03 use something other than your feelings, his numbers might be skewed but yours are non-existent. And the everyone is a peer school argument, so go to whichever makes your heart tingle is not valid. They are differences, as small as they might be and Quakeroats is attempting to draw those out. If you are going to argue with the guy, do the same thing, don't pull that 'He trolling so fuck him' shit. It makes you look bad.

Comeon Vamedic03 am rooting for you cause I hate Duke and their 100% at graduation employment rate, clearly fudged because thats impossible!

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alirod12
Posts: 138
Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 2:47 pm

Re: UVA vs. Duke

Postby alirod12 » Tue Oct 26, 2010 1:33 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
alirod12 wrote:Just to add a note about UVA's LRW, our FINAL memo is due on October 28th, and our last class is on November 11th. The does not equal LRW ending in mid-late November.


Go read your LRW packet again friend. The Final Memo FIRST DRAFT is due October 28th, the final draft of the final memo is due November 11. Again, UVA's LRW schedule sucks, that is all.


Oh hey friend. I already read it, but thanks. I think you are mistakenly placing me into the group of people that put effort into their re-write. For most people that follow the logic of putting minimal effort into LRW, it ends on October 28th.

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vamedic03
Posts: 1579
Joined: Mon Sep 29, 2008 9:50 am

Re: UVA vs. Duke

Postby vamedic03 » Tue Oct 26, 2010 7:06 pm

UnTouChablE wrote:
vamedic03 wrote:
quakeroats wrote:
UVA doesn't release yearly data, and goes as far as to provide most of its stats in the form of a three-year trend. Although Duke does release full yearly data, UVA's lack of disclosure, requires a different, and less accurate methodology. I've gone over the various issues with counting as I have, and will readily agree that it isn't as useful as it could be (remember which school is at fault and why that might be). What's silly is that you reject anything that can't give perfect clarity, which is akin to rejecting everything. Oh, and lol on the "simple spreadsheet math."


No, I reject your baseless conclusions that boil down to this: "Duke is a clearly superior law school because I can generate a few percentages." In truth, you are trolling for Duke and you're attempting to justify your baseless trolling by generating some percentages.

Again, UVA and Duke (along with Northwestern and Michigan and Penn) are all peer schools. What that means is as follows:

1) If you do exceedingly well, you'll have amazing opportunities and many, many doors opened for you.

2) If you do well, you'll have great opportunities.

3) If you end up at median, you'll have opportunities, however, it'll take a lot of footwork.

If you want to work in DC, do well at any of these schools and you'll get a job with a great firm. Same goes for any other market and same goes for the majority of Article III clerkships. I think the only exception to this is as follows - if you fall in the top 3-4% of your class at these schools, UVA will probably give you a slightly better shot at a SCOTUS clerkship because of the connections that the school has developed with feeder judges. That said, it would be absolutely ridiculous to choose your law school based on the miniscule odds of that situation applying to you.

The take home is this - law school is hard and the legal market is still rough. When it comes down to choosing which school to go to, especially UVA versus its peer schools, pick the school that makes you happy. The place that you're happy at will be the place that gives you the best odds of doing well.


Quakeroats is KILLING this dude. Vamedic03 use something other than your feelings, his numbers might be skewed but yours are non-existent. And the everyone is a peer school argument, so go to whichever makes your heart tingle is not valid. They are differences, as small as they might be and Quakeroats is attempting to draw those out. If you are going to argue with the guy, do the same thing, don't pull that 'He trolling so fuck him' shit. It makes you look bad.

Comeon Vamedic03 am rooting for you cause I hate Duke and their 100% at graduation employment rate, clearly fudged because thats impossible!


Unlike Quakeroats, I have better shit to do than play with spreadsheets.

Edited to add - you don't need additional numbers to point out that someone else's "statistics" are bullshit.

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quakeroats
Posts: 1399
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2009 8:34 am

Re: UVA vs. Duke

Postby quakeroats » Tue Oct 26, 2010 7:46 pm

vamedic03 wrote:
UnTouChablE wrote:
vamedic03 wrote:
quakeroats wrote:Unlike Quakeroats, I have better shit to do than play with spreadsheets.


Image
--ImageRemoved--

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BruceWayne
Posts: 2032
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2010 9:36 pm

Re: UVA vs. Duke

Postby BruceWayne » Tue Oct 26, 2010 7:52 pm

alirod12 wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:
alirod12 wrote:Just to add a note about UVA's LRW, our FINAL memo is due on October 28th, and our last class is on November 11th. The does not equal LRW ending in mid-late November.


Go read your LRW packet again friend. The Final Memo FIRST DRAFT is due October 28th, the final draft of the final memo is due November 11. Again, UVA's LRW schedule sucks, that is all.


Oh hey friend. I already read it, but thanks. I think you are mistakenly placing me into the group of people that put effort into their re-write. For most people that follow the logic of putting minimal effort into LRW, it ends on October 28th.


LOL this is a good mentality to have. I guess I'm paranoid that they might actually fail us if we don't put our all into it. Thank you for bringing me back down to reality--it's damn pass fail--I"m not putting in any more work after this week.

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arism87
Posts: 1311
Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2010 7:46 pm

Re: UVA vs. Duke

Postby arism87 » Tue Oct 26, 2010 7:54 pm

Image
--ImageRemoved--[/quote]

HAAA is this supposed to be an insult? I thought you were on Duke's side here...

justadude55
Posts: 963
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2010 12:23 am

Re: UVA vs. Duke

Postby justadude55 » Tue Oct 26, 2010 7:55 pm

i'd take UVA, personally. it's ranked a bit higher, seems to have more global esteem and was founded by thomas jefferson.

justadude55
Posts: 963
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2010 12:23 am

Re: UVA vs. Duke

Postby justadude55 » Tue Oct 26, 2010 7:56 pm

arism87 wrote:Image
--ImageRemoved--


HAAA is this supposed to be an insult? I thought you were on Duke's side here...[/quote]
whichever school these people are from, go to the other one.

this is like the jersey shore if the cast was pale, and stopped going to the gym.

User avatar
arism87
Posts: 1311
Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2010 7:46 pm

Re: UVA vs. Duke

Postby arism87 » Tue Oct 26, 2010 8:04 pm

justadude55 wrote:
arism87 wrote:Image
--ImageRemoved--


HAAA is this supposed to be an insult? I thought you were on Duke's side here...

whichever school these people are from, go to the other one.

this is like the jersey shore if the cast was pale, and stopped going to the gym.[/quote]

http://www.mensfitness.com/college_rankings/79 UVA = 11th fittest college. Duke? Not on the list.

(For the record, I'm messing around-- I'll be happy if I end up at Duke :) )




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