Top Law Schools

People may laugh, but the way I decided whether to ED to UVA or Duke was almost solely based on the fact that Duke has graded LRW. Using that as my final decision was one of the best choices that I've made so far in law school. Looking back on it, this is actually a bigger deal than the 'placement" differences between the two schools. You have to understand, LRW takes up an un Godly amount of time, even though it's only a one credit course. Further, if you were to receive a poor grade in LRW, it will probably hurt you a good deal, maybe even more so than in your other courses (employers care about LRW skills because they are practical).

1L is stressful enough as it is, if you can take away even one stressful factor, do it. It wasn't an easy decision. Like others have said, Duke has way more lay prestige; where I'm from Duke is essentially viewed as being one step down from Harvard and Yale, and basically the same as Stanford. Seeing friends and family awestruck from hearing about other people going to Duke and then asking me if I was going to be a Hokie", as well as "why are you going to school in Virginia?" was annoying, but I think I made the right decision.

Graded LRW blows. My school has P/F LRW and I already put way more time into it than core classes during 1L year.

Also, if you extern for a federal judge, you will learn WAY more during the 3 months at the courthouse than you do all year in LRW.

That said, there are pros and cons for both schools:
A con for UVA is the preselect interview system.
A con for Duke is graded LRW.

aelfwin wrote:A con for UVA is the preselect interview system.

Uh, no.

Almost everyone at UVA laughs at how useless the lottery interviews (20% of the total interviews) are. I had an interview with one firm whose lowest callback in 2009 was a full .1 above my GPA. That was a mutual waste of time.

And special requests supplement the system quite well on the rare occasion when you think you'd be a good fit with a firm, and are in the GPA range, but weren't preselected for whatever reason. I went special request -> screening interview -> callback -> offer with one firm that didn't preselect me.

BruceWayne wrote:LRW takes up an un Godly amount of time, even though it's only a one credit course.

No it doesn't. We're done with LARW this semester and I didn't feel it put a burden at all on the rest of my studying.

That said, I still believe it shouldn't be graded.

los blancos wrote:

BruceWayne wrote:LRW takes up an un Godly amount of time, even though it's only a one credit course.

No it doesn't. We're done with LARW this semester and I didn't feel it put a burden at all on the rest of my studying.

Did you ever think that maybe LRW takes up more time at some schools?

UVA, for some reason, makes the last memo due in mid-late November, like 2 weeks before exams.

RVP11 wrote:

los blancos wrote:

BruceWayne wrote:LRW takes up an un Godly amount of time, even though it's only a one credit course.

No it doesn't. We're done with LARW this semester and I didn't feel it put a burden at all on the rest of my studying.

Did you ever think that maybe LRW takes up more time at some schools?

UVA, for some reason, makes the last memo due in mid-late November, like 2 weeks before exams.

WHY THE HELL do they do this???? Are they trying to prevent us from being able to prepare in time for final exams?! The timing is so stupid.

RVP11 wrote:

los blancos wrote:

BruceWayne wrote:LRW takes up an un Godly amount of time, even though it's only a one credit course.

No it doesn't. We're done with LARW this semester and I didn't feel it put a burden at all on the rest of my studying.

Did you ever think that maybe LRW takes up more time at some schools?

I should've been clearer. This thread is about UVa and Duke. I haven't encountered anyone here who thinks LARW has made it difficult to keep up with everything else. Spring semester might be different, I don't know.

thickfreakness wrote:

beachbum wrote:

AP-375 wrote:I am wondering about this as well. It seems like because of smaller class size, Duke has way more firms visiting per student than UVA. Any other lifestyle considerations?

In addition to everything previously mentioned in this thread, Duke has graded LRW and UVA has pass/fail LRW. But when it comes down to it, the two are similar enough in placement that your choice should be made based on the "feel" of each school (i.e. Large, frattier student body v. small, more academic student body, Durham v. Charlottesville).

FWIW, I was debating which of these schools to ED at, and I've decided to go with Duke.

I'll chime in only to say the following:

1. Duke is awesome. You should visit. We also play copious amounts of softball. 1st base is the best position because you can bring your beer into the field and still play the position.

2. Graded LARW is kind of a good thing. It forces you to take it seriously and really cultivate your writing skills. Almost every upper-level I've talked to feels that good writing is a great way to stand out in a summer job, so I'm glad that they grade it to turn the screws a little bit. I sure as hell wouldn't have spent as much time on my open research memo if it wasn't graded....

Any other questions, feel free to PM.

This is all true except that you can play any position with a beer if you are doing it right.

In the end, you really need to VISIT any law school you are serious about potentially attending. I was skeptical about Duke when I visited my first time but the admitted student orientation made me feel 1000x better. The facilities are as new as your going to get (they were rennovated like 1 year ago), the students are all incredibly smart and interesting, but also laid back and relaxed (not competitive). There is as much or as little drinking as you would like. Also, this stuff about UVA being more respected than Duke and having better access to D.C. or NY or Cal is just plain rubbish. Duke school freely and proudly shares its employment data and I would highly recommend anyone interested read it. Also, check out those latest clerkship numbers. I think you will see Duke is kicking some ass.

cavebat2000 wrote:In the end, you really need to VISIT any law school you are serious about potentially attending. I was skeptical about Duke when I visited my first time but the admitted student orientation made me feel 1000x better. The facilities are as new as your going to get (they were rennovated like 1 year ago), the students are all incredibly smart and interesting, but also laid back and relaxed (not competitive). There is as much or as little drinking as you would like. Also, this stuff about UVA being more respected than Duke and having better access to D.C. or NY or Cal is just plain rubbish. Duke school freely and proudly shares its employment data and I would highly recommend anyone interested read it. Also, check out those latest clerkship numbers. I think you will see Duke is kicking some ass.

The bolded is a bit much. UVA does have a higher level of respect than Duke in the legal community, although Duke's prestige is steadily increasing. In regards to firm placement the two have essentially evened out in recent years. However, judges seem to hold UVA in notably higher regard (this is reflected in the somewhat large lawyer/judge assessment score gap between the 2 schools). Up until recently Duke really didn't do well with clerkships. If you look at the number of federal judges with UVA degrees, it far exceeds those with Duke one's, more so than the class size difference can explain. Most telling, up until this term Duke has done horribly with placing SCOTUS clerks, while UVA has been sending more clerks to SCOTUS than Stanford for some time. And interestingly enough, in Southern firms UVA is held is particularly higher esteem than Duke. Finally, UVA has stronger connections to DC firms and the government positions there as well.

I"m not saying that someone should automatically choose UVA over Duke for prestige reasons, but they should at least be aware that UVA does have a moderately stronger reputation.

RVP11 wrote:

aelfwin wrote:A con for UVA is the preselect interview system.

Uh, no.

Almost everyone at UVA laughs at how useless the lottery interviews (20% of the total interviews) are. I had an interview with one firm whose lowest callback in 2009 was a full .1 above my GPA. That was a mutual waste of time.

And special requests supplement the system quite well on the rare occasion when you think you'd be a good fit with a firm, and are in the GPA range, but weren't preselected for whatever reason. I went special request -> screening interview -> callback -> offer with one firm that didn't preselect me.

If you bid properly, it's not a waste of time. I go to a school with only a lottery system, and had a good callback to screening ratio for my GPA range. I had callbacks at a couple "reach" firms (more than 0.1 higher than my GPA) and I wouldn't have had that opportunity if my school had utilized a preselect system.

That said, Duke's graded LRW sounds like it really, really blows. I can't imagine getting letter grades on a curve for LRW.

wittyscreenname10 wrote:Hey guys,

Long time reader but first time poster here. Duke and UVA (both sticker, at least at this point) are the two top schools I've gotten into so far. I feel like the general sentiment is that UVA is the favorite of the two (maybe of all?) in the forum but I just wanted to start a thread to get opinions on those two specifically. I'm looking to work for a big firm, mostly likely in NY. I also like the idea of a fratty school...which I feel like I could find at both but perhaps more at UVA?

Thanks for the input

Duke will give you a better shot at a V10 in NYC or D.C., an AIII clerkship, and placement outside of the East Coast. UVA has some fantastic softball players.

aelfwin wrote:

RVP11 wrote:

aelfwin wrote:A con for UVA is the preselect interview system.

Uh, no.

Almost everyone at UVA laughs at how useless the lottery interviews (20% of the total interviews) are. I had an interview with one firm whose lowest callback in 2009 was a full .1 above my GPA. That was a mutual waste of time.

And special requests supplement the system quite well on the rare occasion when you think you'd be a good fit with a firm, and are in the GPA range, but weren't preselected for whatever reason. I went special request -> screening interview -> callback -> offer with one firm that didn't preselect me.

If you bid properly, it's not a waste of time. I go to a school with only a lottery system, and had a good callback to screening ratio for my GPA range. I had callbacks at a couple "reach" firms (more than 0.1 higher than my GPA) and I wouldn't have had that opportunity if my school had utilized a preselect system.

That said, Duke's graded LRW sounds like it really, really blows. I can't imagine getting letter grades on a curve for LRW.

It's not as bad as it sounds, and it ends half way through the semester.

quakeroats wrote:

aelfwin wrote:

RVP11 wrote:

aelfwin wrote:A con for UVA is the preselect interview system.

Uh, no.

Almost everyone at UVA laughs at how useless the lottery interviews (20% of the total interviews) are. I had an interview with one firm whose lowest callback in 2009 was a full .1 above my GPA. That was a mutual waste of time.

And special requests supplement the system quite well on the rare occasion when you think you'd be a good fit with a firm, and are in the GPA range, but weren't preselected for whatever reason. I went special request -> screening interview -> callback -> offer with one firm that didn't preselect me.

If you bid properly, it's not a waste of time. I go to a school with only a lottery system, and had a good callback to screening ratio for my GPA range. I had callbacks at a couple "reach" firms (more than 0.1 higher than my GPA) and I wouldn't have had that opportunity if my school had utilized a preselect system.

That said, Duke's graded LRW sounds like it really, really blows. I can't imagine getting letter grades on a curve for LRW.

It's not as bad as it sounds, and it ends half way through the semester.

And, to put in my 2 cents, it's only worth a combined 3 credits over a period of 2 semesters. To put that in perspective, every semester long class is worth 4 credits. Basically, unless you really blow it, LARW should not significantly affect your GPA.
That being said, I should probably disclose that I choose Duke over UVA because of my impressions of the student body during my visits i.e. less fratty / more nerdy (take your pick).

quakeroats wrote:

wittyscreenname10 wrote:Hey guys,

Long time reader but first time poster here. Duke and UVA (both sticker, at least at this point) are the two top schools I've gotten into so far. I feel like the general sentiment is that UVA is the favorite of the two (maybe of all?) in the forum but I just wanted to start a thread to get opinions on those two specifically. I'm looking to work for a big firm, mostly likely in NY. I also like the idea of a fratty school...which I feel like I could find at both but perhaps more at UVA?

Thanks for the input

Duke will give you a better shot at a V10 in NYC or D.C., an AIII clerkship, and placement outside of the East Coast. UVA has some fantastic softball players.

Ugh no. The only V10 firms that people care about in DC are Williams and Connolly and Covington, neither of which will be easier to get from Duke than from UVA. Outside of the east coast, firms view Duke as the same or worse than UVA. UVA has more California firms at it's OGI than Duke does anyway.

http://duke.lawschoolnumbers.com/
http://uva.lawschoolnumbers.com/

quakeroats wrote:

wittyscreenname10 wrote:Hey guys,

Long time reader but first time poster here. Duke and UVA (both sticker, at least at this point) are the two top schools I've gotten into so far. I feel like the general sentiment is that UVA is the favorite of the two (maybe of all?) in the forum but I just wanted to start a thread to get opinions on those two specifically. I'm looking to work for a big firm, mostly likely in NY. I also like the idea of a fratty school...which I feel like I could find at both but perhaps more at UVA?

Thanks for the input

Duke will give you a better shot at a V10 in NYC or D.C., an AIII clerkship, and placement outside of the East Coast. UVA has some fantastic softball players.

Anything to back this up?

No one should be making this decision based on placement.

Just to add a note about UVA's LRW, our FINAL memo is due on October 28th, and our last class is on November 11th. The does not equal LRW ending in mid-late November.

alirod12 wrote:Just to add a note about UVA's LRW, our FINAL memo is due on October 28th, and our last class is on November 11th. The does not equal LRW ending in mid-late November.

The final memo was due mid-late November last year.

BruceWayne wrote:

quakeroats wrote:

wittyscreenname10 wrote:Hey guys,

Long time reader but first time poster here. Duke and UVA (both sticker, at least at this point) are the two top schools I've gotten into so far. I feel like the general sentiment is that UVA is the favorite of the two (maybe of all?) in the forum but I just wanted to start a thread to get opinions on those two specifically. I'm looking to work for a big firm, mostly likely in NY. I also like the idea of a fratty school...which I feel like I could find at both but perhaps more at UVA?

Thanks for the input

Duke will give you a better shot at a V10 in NYC or D.C., an AIII clerkship, and placement outside of the East Coast. UVA has some fantastic softball players.

Ugh no. The only V10 firms that people care about in DC are Williams and Connolly and Covington, neither of which will be easier to get from Duke than from UVA. Outside of the east coast, firms view Duke as the same or worse than UVA. UVA has more California firms at it's OGI than Duke does anyway.

http://duke.lawschoolnumbers.com/
http://uva.lawschoolnumbers.com/

Here's a set of 4 highly regarded D.C. firms (Covington, W&C,A&P, Hogan) with associate totals as of a few months ago for Duke and UVA. The totals are then compared to the number of students going to D.C. each year from each school. This is put into a ratio of total associates in the D.C. office of each firm to total sent to D.C. each year (higher numbers are better) Duke does just under twice as well.

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The pattern is similar if you use V10 or V20 as the metric. Remember that UVA has more than 100 additional students that have to be placed, so greater numbers can be deceiving.

RVP11 wrote:

quakeroats wrote:

wittyscreenname10 wrote:Hey guys,

Long time reader but first time poster here. Duke and UVA (both sticker, at least at this point) are the two top schools I've gotten into so far. I feel like the general sentiment is that UVA is the favorite of the two (maybe of all?) in the forum but I just wanted to start a thread to get opinions on those two specifically. I'm looking to work for a big firm, mostly likely in NY. I also like the idea of a fratty school...which I feel like I could find at both but perhaps more at UVA?

Thanks for the input

Duke will give you a better shot at a V10 in NYC or D.C., an AIII clerkship, and placement outside of the East Coast. UVA has some fantastic softball players.

Anything to back this up?

No one should be making this decision based on placement.

Why would you make this decision based on anything other than placement? Clerkship data below:

http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog ... news-.html

quakeroats wrote:

RVP11 wrote:

quakeroats wrote:

wittyscreenname10 wrote:Hey guys,

Long time reader but first time poster here. Duke and UVA (both sticker, at least at this point) are the two top schools I've gotten into so far. I feel like the general sentiment is that UVA is the favorite of the two (maybe of all?) in the forum but I just wanted to start a thread to get opinions on those two specifically. I'm looking to work for a big firm, mostly likely in NY. I also like the idea of a fratty school...which I feel like I could find at both but perhaps more at UVA?

Thanks for the input

Duke will give you a better shot at a V10 in NYC or D.C., an AIII clerkship, and placement outside of the East Coast. UVA has some fantastic softball players.

Anything to back this up?

No one should be making this decision based on placement.

Why would you make this decision based on anything other than placement? Clerkship data below:

http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog ... news-.html

True. In the end, it is all about getting a job.

quakeroats wrote: Why would you make this decision based on anything other than placement? Clerkship data below:

http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog ... news-.html

You make the decision based on things other than placement when the schools place just about identically. It's like picking law firms; no one picks between Skadden and STB, for example, based on exit opportunities or prestige. And no one should pick among M, V, P, D, etc. based on their perceived chances of a federal clerkship or a BigLaw job.

LOL at a 1.2% difference in ONE YEAR meaning anything. That's like 2-3 people deciding they'd rather take $160k than a district court clerkship in a given year. And clerkship hiring is random - not everyone tries for it, some people only want corporate work, some people could easily get district court clerkships but don't want to move to Kansas for it, etc.

You're splitting hairs here, man. There are tons of things that would be better use of your time than finding placement differences among peer law schools. Leave this stuff to nerdy 0Ls and this one random prof in Cincinnati.

If I get a decent enough score this week, I'm applying to Duke ED, sight unseen. There, I said it.

alirod12 wrote:Just to add a note about UVA's LRW, our FINAL memo is due on October 28th, and our last class is on November 11th. The does not equal LRW ending in mid-late November.

Go read your LRW packet again friend. The Final Memo FIRST DRAFT is due October 28th, the final draft of the final memo is due November 11. Again, UVA's LRW schedule sucks, that is all.

RVP11 wrote:

quakeroats wrote: Why would you make this decision based on anything other than placement? Clerkship data below:

http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog ... news-.html

You make the decision based on things other than placement when the schools place just about identically. It's like picking law firms; no one picks between Skadden and STB, for example, based on exit opportunities or prestige. And no one should pick among M, V, P, D, etc. based on their perceived chances of a federal clerkship or a BigLaw job.

LOL at a 1.2% difference in ONE YEAR meaning anything. That's like 2-3 people deciding they'd rather take $160k than a district court clerkship in a given year. And clerkship hiring is random - not everyone tries for it, some people only want corporate work, some people could easily get district court clerkships but don't want to move to Kansas for it, etc.

You're splitting hairs here, man. There are tons of things that would be better use of your time than finding placement differences among peer law schools. Leave this stuff to nerdy 0Ls and this one random prof in Cincinnati.

Not to mention the previous year D placed fewer percentage-wise into Article III clerkships than M and V...aka one year's data doesn't really say anything.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... =1&t=75513

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