Weight of the whole Institution, not just the Law School

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ravens20
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Re: Weight of the whole Institution, not just the Law School

Postby ravens20 » Tue Feb 02, 2010 2:08 am

The original eight Public Ivies list by Moll (1985):

* College of William & Mary (Williamsburg, Virginia)
* Miami University (Oxford, Ohio)
* University of California (campuses as of 1985)[6]
* University of Michigan (Ann Arbor)
* University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
* University of Texas at Austin
* University of Vermont (Burlington)
* University of Virginia (Charlottesville)

(from Wiki)

bauerahl
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Re: Weight of the whole Institution, not just the Law School

Postby bauerahl » Tue Feb 02, 2010 2:17 am

scionb4 wrote:
ScaredWorkedBored wrote:Michigan State being a "Public Ivy" is one of the more perposterous things I've heard in a while.


Technically (according to Howard and Matthew Greene) so is the State University of New York at Binghamton. I think that's a little more preposterous, considering US News and World Report ranked Michigan State 71st (tied with Indiana Bloomington) for 71st amongst national universities. There's been a lot of hating on Michigan State on this thread, and quite frankly the rankings say otherwise: It is ranked the 86th best university in the fucking world by the Academic Ranking of World Universities, it has the highest ranked Supply Chain Management Program, its fucking Nuclear Physics program is ranked number 2 behind MIT for Christ's sake, #5 primary medical care, and the #9 Veterinarian School. The campus is really pretty, and find me a mid-west school with hotter girls. I'm sorry, but all you Michigan State haters are quite frankly full of shit.


Granted, both should not be considered public Ivy's, but Binghamton is a far better school that Michigan State. Binghamton's biggest problem is that they just aren't known outside of the Northeast (or for that matter outside of New York). That being said, Binghamton isn't Berkeley or Michigan.

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James Bond
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Re: Weight of the whole Institution, not just the Law School

Postby James Bond » Tue Feb 02, 2010 2:18 am

ravens20 wrote:The original eight Public Ivies list by Moll (1985):

* College of William & Mary (Williamsburg, Virginia)
* Miami University (Oxford, Ohio)
* University of California (campuses as of 1985)[6]
* University of Michigan (Ann Arbor)
* University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
* University of Texas at Austin
* University of Vermont (Burlington)
* University of Virginia (Charlottesville)

(from Wiki)


Documentation does not make the sentiment any less retarded

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jay115
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Re: Weight of the whole Institution, not just the Law School

Postby jay115 » Tue Feb 02, 2010 2:22 am

fortissimo wrote:Last I read it was 60%+, but I read that when I applied to undergrad. Regardless, taking into account the entire institution and other grad programs, etc. Michigan >>>>> UCSD. UCSD doesn't have a lot of strong departments.

(fwiw, I didn't go to any of these for undergrad, just saying...)


You don't think UCSD have strong science programs?

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PDaddy
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Re: Weight of the whole Institution, not just the Law School

Postby PDaddy » Tue Feb 02, 2010 2:28 am

Michigan State is no "Public Ivy".

Michigan State is a public Ivy like Tory Spelling is an A-List star.

These are the T1 Public Ivies: Berkeley, UVA, Michigan, UCLA, Ga. Tech, UNC, Washington, W & M, U-Texas, U-Wisconsin-Mad, ICI, UCD, UCSD, U-Illinois, Ohio State

These are the T2 Public Ivies: SUNY Binghamton, Pitt, Penn State, Miami-Ohio, and Colorado
Last edited by PDaddy on Tue Feb 02, 2010 2:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PDaddy
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Re: Weight of the whole Institution, not just the Law School

Postby PDaddy » Tue Feb 02, 2010 2:29 am

biv0ns wrote:
ravens20 wrote:The original eight Public Ivies list by Moll (1985):

* College of William & Mary (Williamsburg, Virginia)
* Miami University (Oxford, Ohio)
* University of California (campuses as of 1985)[6]
* University of Michigan (Ann Arbor)
* University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
* University of Texas at Austin
* University of Vermont (Burlington)
* University of Virginia (Charlottesville)

(from Wiki)


Documentation does not make the sentiment any less retarded


The list above is a little outdated. Berkeley, Washington and the UC schools, as well as Illinois and Wisconsin belong on that list.

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James Bond
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Re: Weight of the whole Institution, not just the Law School

Postby James Bond » Tue Feb 02, 2010 2:30 am

PDaddy wrote:Michigan State is no "Public Ivy".

Michigan State is a public Ivy like Tory Spelling is an A-List star.

These are the T1 Public Ivies: Berkeley, UVA, Michigan, UCLA, Ga. Tech, UNC, Washington, W & M, U-Texas, U-Wisconsin-Mad, ICI, UCD, UCSD, U-Illinois

These are the T2 Public Ivies: SUNY Binghamton, Pitt, Penn State, Miami-Ohio, and Colorado


this is just getting worse and worse

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ravens20
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Re: Weight of the whole Institution, not just the Law School

Postby ravens20 » Tue Feb 02, 2010 2:33 am

PDaddy wrote:
biv0ns wrote:
ravens20 wrote:The original eight Public Ivies list by Moll (1985):

* College of William & Mary (Williamsburg, Virginia)
* Miami University (Oxford, Ohio)
* University of California (campuses as of 1985)[6]
* University of Michigan (Ann Arbor)
* University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
* University of Texas at Austin
* University of Vermont (Burlington)
* University of Virginia (Charlottesville)

(from Wiki)


Documentation does not make the sentiment any less retarded


The list above is a little outdated. Berkeley, Washington and the UC schools, as well as Illinois and Wisconsin belong on that list.


The UC schools and Berkeley (which is one of them) ARE on the list. In any case, it isn't my list, I was just posting it for the sake of reference as to what the original term referred to. But I agree that Washington, Wisconsin, and especially Illinois are as deserving as any of these schools.
Last edited by ravens20 on Tue Feb 02, 2010 2:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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pennstatepride
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Re: Weight of the whole Institution, not just the Law School

Postby pennstatepride » Tue Feb 02, 2010 2:36 am

PDaddy wrote:Michigan State is no "Public Ivy".

Michigan State is a public Ivy like Tory Spelling is an A-List star.

These are the T1 Public Ivies: Berkeley, UVA, Michigan, UCLA, Ga. Tech, UNC, Washington, W & M, U-Texas, U-Wisconsin-Mad, ICI, UCD, UCSD, U-Illinois

These are the T2 Public Ivies: SUNY Binghamton, Pitt, Penn State, Miami-Ohio, and Colorado


Actually Penn State is a tier 1 school, and is a well recognized university throughout the country.

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PDaddy
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Re: Weight of the whole Institution, not just the Law School

Postby PDaddy » Tue Feb 02, 2010 2:37 am

biv0ns wrote:"Public Ivies" is one of the most moronic sentiments of the modern day.

First of all, "The Ivy League" is a sports conference.

Second, the concept of "Public Ivies" is just meant to make stupid/poor people feel better about themselves.

Why can't you just say you go to a good school? Why do you have to add "Ivy" to the end? Self gratification? Masturbation is more fulfilling.


Not really that way anymore. It also denotes academic prestige. "Ivy" means "elite" in academic circles, which is why you have "Southern Ivies", such as Duke, Vandy, Tulane, Emory, SMU, and then Texas, UVA and UNC, all of which are also "Public Ivies". You also have the "Black Ivies" that include Howard, Spelman and Morehouse. Their students are as bright as any you'll find anywhere in the country.

Then you have the "Hidden ivies", including Amherst, Swarthmore, Oberlin, Pamona, Middlebrook, Rice, W & L, Smith, Vassar, etc. You'll often see those names at HYS Law.

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PDaddy
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Re: Weight of the whole Institution, not just the Law School

Postby PDaddy » Tue Feb 02, 2010 2:39 am

pennstatepride wrote:
PDaddy wrote:Michigan State is no "Public Ivy".

Michigan State is a public Ivy like Tory Spelling is an A-List star.

These are the T1 Public Ivies: Berkeley, UVA, Michigan, UCLA, Ga. Tech, UNC, Washington, W & M, U-Texas, U-Wisconsin-Mad, ICI, UCD, UCSD, U-Illinois

These are the T2 Public Ivies: SUNY Binghamton, Pitt, Penn State, Miami-Ohio, and Colorado


Actually Penn State is a tier 1 school, and is a well recognized university throughout the country.


I didn't say it was a "Tier 2 school", I said it is a tier 2 Public Ivy, as in, the others are just a little better. It is a Public Ivy, but there's a divide between the better ones (which approach the prestige of the top national privates), and the others, which are just great universities. The dividing line is research. The top research universities are usually the top universities. Another hallmark is a great medical program and great graduate and professional programs, such as in law and business.
Last edited by PDaddy on Tue Feb 02, 2010 2:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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James Bond
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Re: Weight of the whole Institution, not just the Law School

Postby James Bond » Tue Feb 02, 2010 2:39 am

PDaddy wrote:
biv0ns wrote:"Public Ivies" is one of the most moronic sentiments of the modern day.

First of all, "The Ivy League" is a sports conference.

Second, the concept of "Public Ivies" is just meant to make stupid/poor people feel better about themselves.

Why can't you just say you go to a good school? Why do you have to add "Ivy" to the end? Self gratification? Masturbation is more fulfilling.


Not really that way anymore. It also denotes academic prestige. "Ivy" means "elite" in academic circles, which is why you have "Southern Ivies", such as Duke, Vandy, Tulane, Emory, SMU, and then Texas, UVA and UNC, all of which are also "Public Ivies". You also have the "Black Ivies" that include Howard, Spelman and Morehouse. Their students are as bright as any you'll find anywhere in the country.

Then you have the "Hidden ivies", including Amherst, Swarthmore, Oberlin, Pamona, Middlebrook, Rice, W & L, Smith, Vassar, etc. You'll often see those names at HYS Law.


I'm not saying they're bad or non-prestigious schools. Calling them "ivies" though is absolutely retarded.

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PDaddy
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Re: Weight of the whole Institution, not just the Law School

Postby PDaddy » Tue Feb 02, 2010 2:42 am

ravens20 wrote:
PDaddy wrote:
biv0ns wrote:
ravens20 wrote:The original eight Public Ivies list by Moll (1985):

* College of William & Mary (Williamsburg, Virginia)
* Miami University (Oxford, Ohio)
* University of California (campuses as of 1985)[6]
* University of Michigan (Ann Arbor)
* University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
* University of Texas at Austin
* University of Vermont (Burlington)
* University of Virginia (Charlottesville)

(from Wiki)


Documentation does not make the sentiment any less retarded


The list above is a little outdated. Berkeley, Washington and the UC schools, as well as Illinois and Wisconsin belong on that list.


The UC schools and Berkeley (which is one of them) ARE on the list. In any case, it isn't my list, I was just posting it for the sake of reference as to what the original term referred to. But I agree that Washington, Wisconsin, and especially Illinois are as deserving as any of these schools.


I know this, but they weren't shown. I saw that list on Wiki. It's outdated. Some schools don't really have the prestige of some others. Out of those 3 schools you mentioned, Washington is hands down the best research institution, with Illinois coming in second.

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pennstatepride
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Re: Weight of the whole Institution, not just the Law School

Postby pennstatepride » Tue Feb 02, 2010 2:44 am

PDaddy wrote:
pennstatepride wrote:
PDaddy wrote:Michigan State is no "Public Ivy".

Michigan State is a public Ivy like Tory Spelling is an A-List star.

These are the T1 Public Ivies: Berkeley, UVA, Michigan, UCLA, Ga. Tech, UNC, Washington, W & M, U-Texas, U-Wisconsin-Mad, ICI, UCD, UCSD, U-Illinois

These are the T2 Public Ivies: SUNY Binghamton, Pitt, Penn State, Miami-Ohio, and Colorado


Actually Penn State is a tier 1 school, and is a well recognized university throughout the country.


I didn't say it was a "Tier 2 school", I said it is a tier 2 Public Ivy, as in, the others are just a little better. It is a Public Ivy. How many LSAT RC questions did you miss?


I would have to disagree that a school like Ga. Tech/Illinois is better than Penn State, or that PSU is in the same grouping as Binghamton or Miami-Ohio. Especially considering it has one of the largest alumni networks in the country. Sure, I am biased, but it's a better school than to be ranked where you have it.

And there's no need for the smart-ass comment; you must feel so tough.

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PDaddy
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Re: Weight of the whole Institution, not just the Law School

Postby PDaddy » Tue Feb 02, 2010 2:47 am

pennstatepride wrote:
PDaddy wrote:
pennstatepride wrote:
PDaddy wrote:Michigan State is no "Public Ivy".

Michigan State is a public Ivy like Tory Spelling is an A-List star.

These are the T1 Public Ivies: Berkeley, UVA, Michigan, UCLA, Ga. Tech, UNC, Washington, W & M, U-Texas, U-Wisconsin-Mad, ICI, UCD, UCSD, U-Illinois

These are the T2 Public Ivies: SUNY Binghamton, Pitt, Penn State, Miami-Ohio, and Colorado


Actually Penn State is a tier 1 school, and is a well recognized university throughout the country.


I didn't say it was a "Tier 2 school", I said it is a tier 2 Public Ivy, as in, the others are just a little better. It is a Public Ivy. How many LSAT RC questions did you miss?


I would have to disagree that a school like Ga. Tech/Illinois is better than Penn State, or that PSU is in the same grouping as Binghamton or Miami-Ohio. Especially considering it has one of the largest alumni networks in the country. Sure, I am biased, but it's a better school than to be ranked where you have it.

And there's no need for the smart-ass comment; you must feel so tough.


I took it back. Sorry dude. I realized that I shouldn't have been so harsh. Please accept my apology.

That said, you have to consider research, medicine, law and business. Where a school ranks in those areas is a huge determinant of its prestige. Other factors such as faculty and resources, as well as endowments are also huge.

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pennstatepride
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Re: Weight of the whole Institution, not just the Law School

Postby pennstatepride » Tue Feb 02, 2010 2:52 am

took it back. Sorry dude. I realized that I shouldn't have been so harsh. Please accept my apology.

That said, you have to consider research, medicine, law and business. Where a school ranks in those areas is a huge determinant of its prestige. Other factors such as faculty and resources, as well as endowments are also huge.


Thanks man. I mean I know that the law and MBA programs are both solid (ranked somewhere in the 40's). I think I was just going more off of lay prestige, as I am convinced that this is all undergrad is good for (unless you're a business/engineer major, where you can possibly get a job right out of undergrad). Again, I am super-biased in this debate though.

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Nom Sawyer
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Re: Weight of the whole Institution, not just the Law School

Postby Nom Sawyer » Tue Feb 02, 2010 2:55 am

When I see this thread title, this is what I think:

Image

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Whatisthis
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Re: Weight of the whole Institution, not just the Law School

Postby Whatisthis » Tue Feb 02, 2010 2:57 am

Desert Fox wrote:
pennstatepride wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Judging schools by athletic conference = TTT.


It's an academic conference first, and an athletic conference second. And quite honestly, the caliber of schools in the Big Ten is 2nd best behind the Ivy League as a poster mentioned earlier.


I stand by my comment. I'm a fan of the Big Ten. I went to Illinois and will go to NU law. Michigan State still sucks.



Pac-10 > Big ten academically speaking. The Pac-10 has heavy weights like Berkeley & Stanford, as well as very good schools like UCLA, USC and the University of Washington and... the rest of the schools aren't terrible either.

The big ten may have more good schools, but it's lacking in truly great schools, and I think this gives the Pac the edge


I know nobody cares, but it seems like the Pac-10 is always forgotten.

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pennstatepride
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Re: Weight of the whole Institution, not just the Law School

Postby pennstatepride » Tue Feb 02, 2010 3:04 am

Whatisthis wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
pennstatepride wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Judging schools by athletic conference = TTT.


It's an academic conference first, and an athletic conference second. And quite honestly, the caliber of schools in the Big Ten is 2nd best behind the Ivy League as a poster mentioned earlier.


I stand by my comment. I'm a fan of the Big Ten. I went to Illinois and will go to NU law. Michigan State still sucks.



Pac-10 > Big ten academically speaking. The Pac-10 has heavy weights like Berkeley & Stanford, as well as very good schools like UCLA, USC and the University of Washington and... the rest of the schools aren't terrible either.

The big ten may have more good schools, but it's lacking in truly great schools, and I think this gives the Pac the edge


I know nobody cares, but it seems like the Pac-10 is always forgotten.


PAC 10:

4, 21, 25, 27, 41, 96, 108, 116, 121, tier 3 = 62.11 (not counting the tier 3)

BIG 10:

12, 26, 35, 40, 47, 56, 61, 66, 66, 71, 71 = 49.09

edit - I do get your argument about there not being a truly elite school like Stanford though.

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Re: Weight of the whole Institution, not just the Law School

Postby kukuxumusu » Tue Feb 02, 2010 3:11 am

pennstatepride wrote:
PDaddy wrote:
pennstatepride wrote:
PDaddy wrote:Michigan State is no "Public Ivy".

Michigan State is a public Ivy like Tory Spelling is an A-List star.

These are the T1 Public Ivies: Berkeley, UVA, Michigan, UCLA, Ga. Tech, UNC, Washington, W & M, U-Texas, U-Wisconsin-Mad, ICI, UCD, UCSD, U-Illinois

These are the T2 Public Ivies: SUNY Binghamton, Pitt, Penn State, Miami-Ohio, and Colorado


Actually Penn State is a tier 1 school, and is a well recognized university throughout the country.


I didn't say it was a "Tier 2 school", I said it is a tier 2 Public Ivy, as in, the others are just a little better. It is a Public Ivy. How many LSAT RC questions did you miss?


I would have to disagree that a school like Ga. Tech/Illinois is better than Penn State, or that PSU is in the same grouping as Binghamton or Miami-Ohio. Especially considering it has one of the largest alumni networks in the country. Sure, I am biased, but it's a better school than to be ranked where you have it.

And there's no need for the smart-ass comment; you must feel so tough.

pennstatepride wrote:
PDaddy wrote:Michigan State is no "Public Ivy".

Michigan State is a public Ivy like Tory Spelling is an A-List star.

These are the T1 Public Ivies: Berkeley, UVA, Michigan, UCLA, Ga. Tech, UNC, Washington, W & M, U-Texas, U-Wisconsin-Mad, ICI, UCD, UCSD, U-Illinois

These are the T2 Public Ivies: SUNY Binghamton, Pitt, Penn State, Miami-Ohio, and Colorado


Actually Penn State is a tier 1 school, and is a well recognized university throughout the country.


This.

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im_blue
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Re: Weight of the whole Institution, not just the Law School

Postby im_blue » Tue Feb 02, 2010 3:44 am

IMO, the US News ranking of top 10 public universities is a good approximation of "public ivies":

1) Berkeley
2) UCLA, Virginia
4) Michigan
5) UNC
6) William and Mary
7) Georgia Tech, UCSD
9) Illinois, Wisconsin

Second tier:
11) UC Davis, UC Santa Barbara, Washington
14) UC Irvine
15) Penn State, Florida, Texas
18) Ohio State, Maryland

http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandrevie ... top-public

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Re: Weight of the whole Institution, not just the Law School

Postby Panther7 » Tue Feb 02, 2010 5:08 am

scionb4 wrote:
moandersen wrote:
scionb4 wrote:You'll notice that the national ranking of a university/college will not always match its law school school ranking. Often the institution is either much more highly regarded than its law school (case in point Michigan State University which is considered overall a "public Ivy" but has a tier 3 law school, and yes I know that its law school is technically private but it DOES carry the Michigan State name


:shock:

I think you mean Michigan can be considered a public ivy by some.....


No, I don't. Michigan State IS now considered a Public Ivy according to The Public Ivies: America's Flagship Public Universities (2001) by Howard and Matthew Greene of Greene's Guides, though in all fairness so are a lot of schools that really merit raised eye brows. The list includes about 30 schools.


ROFL at MSU being highly regarded. I'm not even from Michigan, and I know that school is shit.

Even kids at Northern Mich make fun of MSU.

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Re: Weight of the whole Institution, not just the Law School

Postby Tofu » Tue Feb 02, 2010 5:26 am

just to add a little info... in high school (in socal), we basically had five tiers for the UCs:

Berkeley
UCLA
UCSD
UCD/UCSB/UCI (in no order)
UCR
(I'm not including merced because it was such a new school)

a lot of people i knew went to SD over LA based on personal preference for the area/school, and a lot of people i knew also went to LA over Berkeley. there also wasn't a perceived, meaningful difference between davis, santa barbara, and irvine (everyone pretty much saw those schools as below berkeley/la/sd).

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Re: Weight of the whole Institution, not just the Law School

Postby im_blue » Tue Feb 02, 2010 5:42 am

Tofu wrote:just to add a little info... in high school (in socal), we basically had five tiers for the UCs:

Berkeley
UCLA
UCSD
UCD/UCSB/UCI (in no order)
UCR
(I'm not including merced because it was such a new school)

a lot of people i knew went to SD over LA based on personal preference for the area/school, and a lot of people i knew also went to LA over Berkeley. there also wasn't a perceived, meaningful difference between davis, santa barbara, and irvine (everyone pretty much saw those schools as below berkeley/la/sd).


Trolling against UCSC?

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Re: Weight of the whole Institution, not just the Law School

Postby Tofu » Tue Feb 02, 2010 5:51 am

im_blue wrote:
Tofu wrote:just to add a little info... in high school (in socal), we basically had five tiers for the UCs:

Berkeley
UCLA
UCSD
UCD/UCSB/UCI (in no order)
UCR
(I'm not including merced because it was such a new school)

a lot of people i knew went to SD over LA based on personal preference for the area/school, and a lot of people i knew also went to LA over Berkeley. there also wasn't a perceived, meaningful difference between davis, santa barbara, and irvine (everyone pretty much saw those schools as below berkeley/la/sd).


Trolling against UCSC?


ahhh i forgot about ucsc! :( tbh i'm not sure where ucsc ranks in there.... just that it's below berkeley/ucla/ucsd




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