Weight of the whole Institution, not just the Law School

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fortissimo
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Re: Weight of the whole Institution, not just the Law School

Postby fortissimo » Wed Feb 03, 2010 7:28 am

jay115 wrote:
jnorsky wrote:
jay115 wrote:
jnorsky wrote:If we are talking about public institutions, putting berkeley above michigan is not really necessary. They are pretty much in a league of their own and on par with some of the really elite US universities. After them, Texas, UCLA and UNC are up there. I was surprised to find how UVA really isnt a well rounded elite public university. Definitely great undergrad, law, business and med school though.


I guess bc I'm going to UCLA I have an obligation to defend it, so here's my shot: Michigan and UCLA have comparable business and medical schools; Michigan has a better law school whereas UCLA has a stronger undergraduate program. I suppose we could further break it down by specific statistics, but based on rankings, money, and overall university prestige, UCLA is on par with Michigan.

In regards to Berkeley vs Michigan: Berkeley as a stronger undergraduate program, law program, science programs, and is overall stronger than Michigan. In the global university rankings program, Berkeley ranks third (only below stanford and harvard) whereas Michigan ranks 22 (which, i might add, is substantially lower than UCLA and UCSD). Berkeley is the only university in the nation to achieve top 5 rankings for all of its PhD programs in those disciplines covered by the USWNR. Not that USWNR is gold, but this is TLS.

Actually, for everyone who says UCSD sucks (I have no connection to UCSD save the fact that I'm a CA resident): --LinkRemoved--. Methodology and everything present.


That ranking you gave had UC San Fransisco ranked higher than michigan, i discredit that entirely.

And to say berkeley has stronger programs in law, science and undergrad is very subjective. Both get underplayed in undergrad rankings because they are public. Law schools are peers, getting a masters or PHD in either ones science programs is very imressive, both are peers in terms of most things. I am not going to go item by item, but I would definitely say that there is little difference between the quality of Michigan and Berkeley overall.

UCLA is definitely a great school and is up there with michigan, and Berk, but it really does not do better than Michigan in much, if anything. To compare Michigan to UCSD is retarded. And again, having it ranked above michigan shows that ranking is using really odd metrics or is just idiotic.


I was just going to respond but galahad85 beat me to it. Not only is UCSF have one of the best medical schools in the country, the National Research Council ranked UCSF among the top ten schools in the U.S. in biochemistry and molecular biology (1st), genetics (2nd), cell and developmental biology (3rd), neurosciences (4th), physiology (5th), and biomedical engineering (7th). It apparently also has an awesome dental, pharmaceutical, and nursing school (all poached from wikipedia and linked sources).

What's nice about this ranking is that EVERYTHING (methodology, statistics, and analysis) is transparent. If someone has data to the contrary, this is an open thread. Claiming Michigan and Berkeley are peers (or that UCSF sucks) without data or evidence is hollow. If you'd like to share what metrics you find exactly "odd," do share.

The UC system is the finest public school system mainly because of the sheer amount of strong top-tier schools in one state - UCSD has an amazing research and science focus. California has been through a shitload of budget crises before (most recently 2003) and the UC's survived it. Arguing that all UC schools below UCLA and Berkeley suck without explaining how is pure anti-UC trolling.

As a side note: If you're a CA citizen and are accepted into UCSF med school, you can attend for FREE - HOW COME ATTENDING A PUBLIC LAW SCHOOL IN CALIFORNIA ISN'T FREE?


UH NO. One of my best friends (California resident) goes to UCSF medical school. It is NOT free. :roll: Where do you get your information from? I think he pays less than law students pay to go to law school but it is NOT FREE.

http://finaid.ucsf.edu/application-proc ... ent-budget

The tuition provided in that link does not even include non-resident tuition yet. The resident tuition for "medicine" (1-4) ranges from 27,000 to 31,000 per year. They expect your total cost (as a resident) to be 49,000 to 56,000 per year. This only includes RESIDENT tuition. You add non-resident fees on top of that.

Michigan >> UCLA partly because Michigan has far more top 10/top 15 programs than UCLA does, and its medical school > UCLA's medical school. They are tied this year, but normally Michigan's is higher ranked. Michigan's engineering program is in the top 10. UCLA's is not. Michigan's law is in the top 10. UCLA's is not. Michigan typically has the best political science grad school in the nation. Etc. Michigan's undergrad business program is typically in the top 3. UCLA's is not. The stats of the matriculated undergrad students are pretty comparable too.

In USNews' complete rankings of the world's best universities, Michigan ranks 19, while UCLA ranks 32.

http://www.usnews.com/articles/educatio ... p-200.html

When I applied to undergrad a couple years ago Michigan's undergrad was ranked at 22, which was higher ranked than UCLA undergrad too. (I got into both for ugrad as well as Berkeley undergrad, but I ended up attending a private undergrad so I'm not really trolling for any of these particular undergrads because I did not go to either), but I wanted to point out that Michigan's undergrad is normally better than UCLA's.

Michigan > UCLA. Sorry. The other UCs aren't even worth talking about.
Last edited by fortissimo on Wed Feb 03, 2010 7:48 am, edited 4 times in total.

fortissimo
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Re: Weight of the whole Institution, not just the Law School

Postby fortissimo » Wed Feb 03, 2010 7:29 am

delete
Last edited by fortissimo on Wed Feb 03, 2010 10:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Weight of the whole Institution, not just the Law School

Postby capitalacq » Wed Feb 03, 2010 10:17 am

fortissimo wrote:
jay115 wrote:
jnorsky wrote:
jay115 wrote:
I guess bc I'm going to UCLA I have an obligation to defend it, so here's my shot: Michigan and UCLA have comparable business and medical schools; Michigan has a better law school whereas UCLA has a stronger undergraduate program. I suppose we could further break it down by specific statistics, but based on rankings, money, and overall university prestige, UCLA is on par with Michigan.

In regards to Berkeley vs Michigan: Berkeley as a stronger undergraduate program, law program, science programs, and is overall stronger than Michigan. In the global university rankings program, Berkeley ranks third (only below stanford and harvard) whereas Michigan ranks 22 (which, i might add, is substantially lower than UCLA and UCSD). Berkeley is the only university in the nation to achieve top 5 rankings for all of its PhD programs in those disciplines covered by the USWNR. Not that USWNR is gold, but this is TLS.

Actually, for everyone who says UCSD sucks (I have no connection to UCSD save the fact that I'm a CA resident): --LinkRemoved--. Methodology and everything present.


That ranking you gave had UC San Fransisco ranked higher than michigan, i discredit that entirely.

And to say berkeley has stronger programs in law, science and undergrad is very subjective. Both get underplayed in undergrad rankings because they are public. Law schools are peers, getting a masters or PHD in either ones science programs is very imressive, both are peers in terms of most things. I am not going to go item by item, but I would definitely say that there is little difference between the quality of Michigan and Berkeley overall.

UCLA is definitely a great school and is up there with michigan, and Berk, but it really does not do better than Michigan in much, if anything. To compare Michigan to UCSD is retarded. And again, having it ranked above michigan shows that ranking is using really odd metrics or is just idiotic.


I was just going to respond but galahad85 beat me to it. Not only is UCSF have one of the best medical schools in the country, the National Research Council ranked UCSF among the top ten schools in the U.S. in biochemistry and molecular biology (1st), genetics (2nd), cell and developmental biology (3rd), neurosciences (4th), physiology (5th), and biomedical engineering (7th). It apparently also has an awesome dental, pharmaceutical, and nursing school (all poached from wikipedia and linked sources).

What's nice about this ranking is that EVERYTHING (methodology, statistics, and analysis) is transparent. If someone has data to the contrary, this is an open thread. Claiming Michigan and Berkeley are peers (or that UCSF sucks) without data or evidence is hollow. If you'd like to share what metrics you find exactly "odd," do share.

The UC system is the finest public school system mainly because of the sheer amount of strong top-tier schools in one state - UCSD has an amazing research and science focus. California has been through a shitload of budget crises before (most recently 2003) and the UC's survived it. Arguing that all UC schools below UCLA and Berkeley suck without explaining how is pure anti-UC trolling.

As a side note: If you're a CA citizen and are accepted into UCSF med school, you can attend for FREE - HOW COME ATTENDING A PUBLIC LAW SCHOOL IN CALIFORNIA ISN'T FREE?


UH NO. One of my best friends (California resident) goes to UCSF medical school. It is NOT free. :roll: Where do you get your information from? I think he pays less than law students pay to go to law school but it is NOT FREE.

http://finaid.ucsf.edu/application-proc ... ent-budget

The tuition provided in that link does not even include non-resident tuition yet. The resident tuition for "medicine" (1-4) ranges from 27,000 to 31,000 per year. They expect your total cost (as a resident) to be 49,000 to 56,000 per year. This only includes RESIDENT tuition. You add non-resident fees on top of that.

Michigan >> UCLA partly because Michigan has far more top 10/top 15 programs than UCLA does, and its medical school > UCLA's medical school. They are tied this year, but normally Michigan's is higher ranked. Michigan's engineering program is in the top 10. UCLA's is not. Michigan's law is in the top 10. UCLA's is not. Michigan typically has the best political science grad school in the nation. Etc. Michigan's undergrad business program is typically in the top 3. UCLA's is not. The stats of the matriculated undergrad students are pretty comparable too.

In USNews' complete rankings of the world's best universities, Michigan ranks 19, while UCLA ranks 32.

http://www.usnews.com/articles/educatio ... p-200.html

When I applied to undergrad a couple years ago Michigan's undergrad was ranked at 22, which was higher ranked than UCLA undergrad too. (I got into both for ugrad as well as Berkeley undergrad, but I ended up attending a private undergrad so I'm not really trolling for any of these particular undergrads because I did not go to either), but I wanted to point out that Michigan's undergrad is normally better than UCLA's.

Michigan > UCLA. Sorry. The other UCs aren't even worth talking about.


It would have been much easier for you to just type "I go to Michigan and I don't want to feel bad about my choice"

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jay115
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Re: Weight of the whole Institution, not just the Law School

Postby jay115 » Wed Feb 03, 2010 10:23 am

fortissimo wrote:
jay115 wrote:
jnorsky wrote:
jay115 wrote:
I guess bc I'm going to UCLA I have an obligation to defend it, so here's my shot: Michigan and UCLA have comparable business and medical schools; Michigan has a better law school whereas UCLA has a stronger undergraduate program. I suppose we could further break it down by specific statistics, but based on rankings, money, and overall university prestige, UCLA is on par with Michigan.

In regards to Berkeley vs Michigan: Berkeley as a stronger undergraduate program, law program, science programs, and is overall stronger than Michigan. In the global university rankings program, Berkeley ranks third (only below stanford and harvard) whereas Michigan ranks 22 (which, i might add, is substantially lower than UCLA and UCSD). Berkeley is the only university in the nation to achieve top 5 rankings for all of its PhD programs in those disciplines covered by the USWNR. Not that USWNR is gold, but this is TLS.

Actually, for everyone who says UCSD sucks (I have no connection to UCSD save the fact that I'm a CA resident): --LinkRemoved--. Methodology and everything present.


That ranking you gave had UC San Fransisco ranked higher than michigan, i discredit that entirely.

And to say berkeley has stronger programs in law, science and undergrad is very subjective. Both get underplayed in undergrad rankings because they are public. Law schools are peers, getting a masters or PHD in either ones science programs is very imressive, both are peers in terms of most things. I am not going to go item by item, but I would definitely say that there is little difference between the quality of Michigan and Berkeley overall.

UCLA is definitely a great school and is up there with michigan, and Berk, but it really does not do better than Michigan in much, if anything. To compare Michigan to UCSD is retarded. And again, having it ranked above michigan shows that ranking is using really odd metrics or is just idiotic.


I was just going to respond but galahad85 beat me to it. Not only is UCSF have one of the best medical schools in the country, the National Research Council ranked UCSF among the top ten schools in the U.S. in biochemistry and molecular biology (1st), genetics (2nd), cell and developmental biology (3rd), neurosciences (4th), physiology (5th), and biomedical engineering (7th). It apparently also has an awesome dental, pharmaceutical, and nursing school (all poached from wikipedia and linked sources).

What's nice about this ranking is that EVERYTHING (methodology, statistics, and analysis) is transparent. If someone has data to the contrary, this is an open thread. Claiming Michigan and Berkeley are peers (or that UCSF sucks) without data or evidence is hollow. If you'd like to share what metrics you find exactly "odd," do share.

The UC system is the finest public school system mainly because of the sheer amount of strong top-tier schools in one state - UCSD has an amazing research and science focus. California has been through a shitload of budget crises before (most recently 2003) and the UC's survived it. Arguing that all UC schools below UCLA and Berkeley suck without explaining how is pure anti-UC trolling.

As a side note: If you're a CA citizen and are accepted into UCSF med school, you can attend for FREE - HOW COME ATTENDING A PUBLIC LAW SCHOOL IN CALIFORNIA ISN'T FREE?


UH NO. One of my best friends (California resident) goes to UCSF medical school. It is NOT free. :roll: Where do you get your information from? I think he pays less than law students pay to go to law school but it is NOT FREE.

http://finaid.ucsf.edu/application-proc ... ent-budget

The tuition provided in that link does not even include non-resident tuition yet. The resident tuition for "medicine" (1-4) ranges from 27,000 to 31,000 per year. They expect your total cost (as a resident) to be 49,000 to 56,000 per year. This only includes RESIDENT tuition. You add non-resident fees on top of that.

Michigan >> UCLA partly because Michigan has far more top 10/top 15 programs than UCLA does, and its medical school > UCLA's medical school. They are tied this year, but normally Michigan's is higher ranked. Michigan's engineering program is in the top 10. UCLA's is not. Michigan's law is in the top 10. UCLA's is not. Michigan typically has the best political science grad school in the nation. Etc. Michigan's undergrad business program is typically in the top 3. UCLA's is not. The stats of the matriculated undergrad students are pretty comparable too.

In USNews' complete rankings of the world's best universities, Michigan ranks 19, while UCLA ranks 32.

http://www.usnews.com/articles/educatio ... p-200.html

When I applied to undergrad a couple years ago Michigan's undergrad was ranked at 22, which was higher ranked than UCLA undergrad too. (I got into both for ugrad as well as Berkeley undergrad, but I ended up attending a private undergrad so I'm not really trolling for any of these particular undergrads because I did not go to either), but I wanted to point out that Michigan's undergrad is normally better than UCLA's.

Michigan > UCLA. Sorry. The other UCs aren't even worth talking about.


USWNR states that instate students go to UCSF for free: http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... h-rankings. Apparently I get my information from the same place you do.

USWNR (as you seem to love to cite) ranks UCLA as ranked 2, above michigan.

You clearly went to Michigan decades ago as UCLA (2) over Michigan (4): http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandrevie ... top-public
and overall UCLA (24) over Michigan (27). http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandrevie ... ngs/page+2.

Since when has Michigan ever surpassed HBS, Sloan, Kellogg, Wharton, SBS, or Chicago to even break into the top 5 business schools?

fortissimo
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Re: Weight of the whole Institution, not just the Law School

Postby fortissimo » Wed Feb 03, 2010 10:28 am

jay115 wrote:
fortissimo wrote:
UH NO. One of my best friends (California resident) goes to UCSF medical school. It is NOT free. :roll: Where do you get your information from? I think he pays less than law students pay to go to law school but it is NOT FREE.

http://finaid.ucsf.edu/application-proc ... ent-budget

The tuition provided in that link does not even include non-resident tuition yet. The resident tuition for "medicine" (1-4) ranges from 27,000 to 31,000 per year. They expect your total cost (as a resident) to be 49,000 to 56,000 per year. This only includes RESIDENT tuition. You add non-resident fees on top of that.

Michigan >> UCLA partly because Michigan has far more top 10/top 15 programs than UCLA does, and its medical school > UCLA's medical school. They are tied this year, but normally Michigan's is higher ranked. Michigan's engineering program is in the top 10. UCLA's is not. Michigan's law is in the top 10. UCLA's is not. Michigan typically has the best political science grad school in the nation. Etc. Michigan's undergrad business program is typically in the top 3. UCLA's is not. The stats of the matriculated undergrad students are pretty comparable too.

In USNews' complete rankings of the world's best universities, Michigan ranks 19, while UCLA ranks 32.

http://www.usnews.com/articles/educatio ... p-200.html

When I applied to undergrad a couple years ago Michigan's undergrad was ranked at 22, which was higher ranked than UCLA undergrad too. (I got into both for ugrad as well as Berkeley undergrad, but I ended up attending a private undergrad so I'm not really trolling for any of these particular undergrads because I did not go to either), but I wanted to point out that Michigan's undergrad is normally better than UCLA's.

Michigan > UCLA. Sorry. The other UCs aren't even worth talking about.


USWNR states that instate students go to UCSF for free: http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... h-rankings. Apparently I get my information from the same place you do.

USWNR (as you seem to love to cite) ranks UCLA as ranked 2, above michigan.

You clearly went to Michigan decades ago as UCLA (2) over Michigan (4): http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandrevie ... top-public
and overall UCLA (24) over Michigan (27). http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandrevie ... ngs/page+2.

Since when has Michigan ever surpassed HBS, Sloan, Kellogg, Wharton, SBS, or Chicago to even break into the top 5 business schools?


USNWR is wrong about the tuition. I know for a FACT you have to pay tuition as an in-stater to go to UCSF. Call UCSF and ask. The information is WRONG. Or better yet, look at the tuition page that UCSF itself has provided on its website. USNWR frequently is inaccurate in regards to actual tuition/fees, etc.

I went to a top 15 PRIVATE undergrad and currently go to Michigan Law. (As I said in my last post, which you apparently did not read carefully, I was admitted to all three - UCLA, Michigan, and Berkeley undergrads - but decided to attend a private undergrad.) I am in my early 20s by the way, as I went straight from undergrad to law school so no, not "decades ago.' That said, I think the stats of the matriculated freshmen at these 3 undergrads are pretty much the same. It is probably harder to get into Michigan via transfer since all the UCs accept a ton of transfer students from community colleges.

Michigan has a top 3 UNDERGRADUATE business program. No public schools have top graduate business programs. You need to learn how to read and comprehend before you go to law school.

Over 70% of Michigan's graduate programs are ranked in the top 10. Michigan >> UCLA.

Additionally, I bet the vast majority of cross admits choose Michigan Law over UCLA law. (I am one of them, and I know a 2L who transferred from UCLA Law to Michigan Law.)

You can check up each graduate school ranking from every source if you want, I know that Michigan has more top 10 programs than UCLA does. Its undergraduate business program is also much better. So is its engineering program.
Last edited by fortissimo on Wed Feb 03, 2010 10:53 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Weight of the whole Institution, not just the Law School

Postby ScaredWorkedBored » Wed Feb 03, 2010 10:34 am

PDaddy wrote:Stanford>NU
Berkeley>Michigan
UCLA>Illinois
USC>Wisconsin
Washington>Iowa
Minnesota>Arizona
Ohio St.>Arizona St.
Penn St.>Oregon(even if it had a law school)

Purdue> Washington St. (regardless)
Michigan St.>Oregon St. (Also)


I don't understand the two underlined, since they're inconsistent. If you are using the world rankings, Berkeley is way ahead of Michigan, but Wisconsin is even further ahead of USC. If you look at the ASU research, Wisconsin is similarly above USC and Berkeley and Michigan tie.

US News likes USC for being private, but their undergrad rankings are not at all credible with no public school in the top 20 and similar private bias throughout. Is anyone going to argue with a straight face that Duke, Rice, Emory and WUSTL are superior to Berkeley or that those schools + USC are superior to Michigan? :shock:

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Re: Weight of the whole Institution, not just the Law School

Postby Blindmelon » Wed Feb 03, 2010 10:40 am

ScaredWorkedBored wrote:
PDaddy wrote:Stanford>NU
Berkeley>Michigan
UCLA>Illinois
USC>Wisconsin
Washington>Iowa
Minnesota>Arizona
Ohio St.>Arizona St.
Penn St.>Oregon(even if it had a law school)

Purdue> Washington St. (regardless)
Michigan St.>Oregon St. (Also)


I don't understand the two underlined, since they're inconsistent. If you are using the world rankings, Berkeley is way ahead of Michigan, but Wisconsin is even further ahead of USC. If you look at the ASU research, Wisconsin is similarly above USC and Berkeley and Michigan tie.

US News likes USC for being private, but their undergrad rankings are not at all credible with no public school in the top 20 and similar private bias throughout. Is anyone going to argue with a straight face that Duke (WTF), Rice, Emory and WUSTL are superior to Berkeley or that those schools + USC are superior to Michigan? :shock:


Now you're just discussing UG prestige as unrelated to the LS. UG does not matter in the slightest. For god's sake, NYU is almost on par with UChicago for LS when their UGs are worlds apart. UVA >>> WM for LS, yet WM's UG is harder to get into. BU/GW's UG are really nothing special, but their LSs carry a lot of weight in their regions.

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Re: Weight of the whole Institution, not just the Law School

Postby showNprove » Wed Feb 03, 2010 10:44 am

Public universities:

Berkeley >> Michigan > U.Va. > UCLA > UNC-Chapel Hill >= Wisconsin > Everyone else

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Re: Weight of the whole Institution, not just the Law School

Postby tarheel87 » Wed Feb 03, 2010 12:29 pm

showNprove wrote:Public universities:

Berkeley >> Michigan > U.Va. > UCLA > UNC-Chapel Hill >= Wisconsin > Everyone else


Those first five are the only credited responses in this thread. Arguing anything other than Berkeley, Michigan, UCLA, UNC, and UVA is a waste of time and purely incorrect. (Also knowing both universities well I defy you to show me the actual difference in UNC and UVA undergrad, they're practically identical. And no I'm not just saying that because UVA is currently ranked higher :roll: )

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Re: Weight of the whole Institution, not just the Law School

Postby 09042014 » Wed Feb 03, 2010 12:34 pm

showNprove wrote:Public universities:

Berkeley >> Michigan > U.Va. > UCLA > UNC-Chapel Hill >= Wisconsin > Everyone else


TCR is the one that is in your state. You'd be silly to go to Michigan if you lived in Virgina, or Wisconsin. You shouldn't be paying out of state tuition at any public school unless you live in a state with no good flagship school.

For grad school, it depends entirely on the prestige of the department.

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Re: Weight of the whole Institution, not just the Law School

Postby peterswe » Wed Feb 03, 2010 2:27 pm

I go to Miami University and it used to be pimp ( as in it was ranked higher than OSU in USNEWS and much harder to get in to). Problem is, Miami is also the most expensive public school in Ohio... so when the economy hit the skids, seems like people just stopped applying here and the ranking fell like 30 spots. Ah well.

Just my random 2 cents.

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Re: Weight of the whole Institution, not just the Law School

Postby dakatz » Wed Feb 03, 2010 2:31 pm

peterswe wrote:I go to Miami University and it used to be pimp ( as in it was ranked higher than OSU in USNEWS and much harder to get in to). Problem is, Miami is also the most expensive public school in Ohio... so when the economy hit the skids, seems like people just stopped applying here and the ranking fell like 30 spots. Ah well.

Just my random 2 cents.


Oh man, I NEVER come across Miami University students. Finally, someone to pick on for last year's Frozen Four (I went to BU). :) Though I'd say you guys have as good a shot as anyone this year with all the strong players you kept. Pretty much every great part of last year's Terriers are gone now.

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Re: Weight of the whole Institution, not just the Law School

Postby RVP11 » Wed Feb 03, 2010 2:31 pm

peterswe wrote:I go to Miami University and it used to be pimp ( as in it was ranked higher than OSU in USNEWS and much harder to get in to). Problem is, Miami is also the most expensive public school in Ohio... so when the economy hit the skids, seems like people just stopped applying here and the ranking fell like 30 spots. Ah well.

Just my random 2 cents.


The USN rankings for UG are far worse than those for law schools. There are schools in the 1st tier and schools in the 4th tier with virtually the same admissions statistics and selectivity. At least the law school rankings are a rough approximation of relative prestige and selectivity.

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Re: Weight of the whole Institution, not just the Law School

Postby 09042014 » Wed Feb 03, 2010 2:39 pm

JSUVA2012 wrote:
peterswe wrote:I go to Miami University and it used to be pimp ( as in it was ranked higher than OSU in USNEWS and much harder to get in to). Problem is, Miami is also the most expensive public school in Ohio... so when the economy hit the skids, seems like people just stopped applying here and the ranking fell like 30 spots. Ah well.

Just my random 2 cents.


The USN rankings for UG are far worse than those for law schools. There are schools in the 1st tier and schools in the 4th tier with virtually the same admissions statistics and selectivity. At least the law school rankings are a rough approximation of relative prestige and selectivity.


USNWR UG rankings are awful and are very biased toward private schools with ridiculous tuition.

Peer Assessment (25%): Legit, but random.

Retention (20%): Penalizes schools for being hard.

Faculty resources(20%): How much money they throw at professors.

Student selectivity(15%): Legit

Financial resources(10%): Why is this even a factor?

Graduation rate performance(5%): I don't know what this is even measuring

Alumni giving rate(5%): Why is this relevant?

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Re: Weight of the whole Institution, not just the Law School

Postby jne381 » Wed Feb 03, 2010 7:40 pm

I would not classify Michigan State as a "Public Ivy," but it is a damn fine school. Its ranking probably goes down because it is a large public institution. However, it has a hell of a lot of really good graduate schools and programs. It ranks evenly with Indiana and Iowa.

Also, it is stupid to compare athletic conferences academically. In this regard, nobody matches the Big Ten, not even the Ivy League. This is because Big Ten institutions are part of the CIC. This includes The University of Chicago (as a founding member of the Big Ten). I know of no other athletic conference that shares resources and cooperates on this level like the Big Ten.

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Re: Weight of the whole Institution, not just the Law School

Postby toaster2 » Wed Feb 03, 2010 7:43 pm

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Last edited by toaster2 on Tue May 25, 2010 1:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Weight of the whole Institution, not just the Law School

Postby scionb4 » Wed Feb 03, 2010 7:53 pm

toaster2 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:USNWR UG rankings are awful and are very biased toward private schools with ridiculous tuition.

Peer Assessment (25%): Legit, but random.

Retention (20%): Penalizes schools for being hard.

Faculty resources(20%): How much money they throw at professors.

Student selectivity(15%): Legit

Financial resources(10%): Why is this even a factor?

Graduation rate performance(5%): I don't know what this is even measuring

Alumni giving rate(5%): Why is this relevant?
are you serious? you don't think financial resources have any bearing upon the quality of education a school provides? alumni giving is also a great barometer of how satisfied alumni feel and the strength of their connection to the school. if 65% of alumni from school a donate each year compared to 30% at school b, which school has happier alums?


While I agree that alumni giving could be an indicator of the quality of an institution, it also could just be the result of blind devotion to the school, specifically its athletic programs. Case in point - Notre Dame's immense endowment is more to do with the rabid devotion of its football fan base than it is to do with the actual quality of the academics of the school. Not to say that Notre Dame isn't a great school, of course it is, but it's $5.5 billion endowment is much more about the Fighting Irish than it is about its academics. I would guess USC, UNC, other schools with an immense following would be the same.

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Re: Weight of the whole Institution, not just the Law School

Postby showNprove » Wed Feb 03, 2010 8:50 pm

.
Last edited by showNprove on Sat Feb 26, 2011 5:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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im_blue
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Re: Weight of the whole Institution, not just the Law School

Postby im_blue » Wed Feb 03, 2010 9:23 pm

showNprove wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:USNWR UG rankings are awful and are very biased toward private schools with ridiculous tuition.

Peer Assessment (25%): Legit, but random.

Rank based on those scores:

1. Harvard (4.9)
1. Princeton (4.9)
1. Stanford (4.9)
1. MIT (4.9)
5. Yale (4.8 )
6. Berkeley (4.7)
7. Columbia (4.6)
7. Chicago (4.6)
7. Cal Tech (4.6)
10. Penn (4.5)
10. Cornell (4.5)
10. Johns Hopkins (4.5)
13. Michigan (4.4)
13. Brown (4.4)
13. Duke (4.4)
16. Virginia (4.3)
16. Dartmouth (4.3)
16. Northwestern (4.3)
19. Carnegie Mellon (4.2)
19. UCLA (4.2)
21. UNC-Chapel Hill (4.1)
21. Wisconsin (4.1)
21. WUSTL (4.1)

I don't see what is so random about these scores.

Edit: I do agree that the ultimate USNWR formula greatly misrepresents reality, however.


I agree that the peer assessment scores are a much better indicator of quality than the overall ranking.

Top publics:
1. Berkeley (4.7)
2. Michigan (4.4)
3. Virginia (4.3)
4. UCLA (4.2)
5. UNC, Wisconsin (4.1)

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jayn3
Posts: 667
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Re: Weight of the whole Institution, not just the Law School

Postby jayn3 » Fri Feb 05, 2010 8:24 pm

scionb4 wrote:
bighead715 wrote:everyone here is forgetting WAYNE STATE UNIVERSITY

the greatest university in the history of the world

shits on the entire pac 10 and big 10

dbags


I'm more partial to Peru State College in Peru, Nebraska. It's pretty high class.


Fun trivia: University of Nebraska-Lincoln's admissions packet includes instructions for ordering football tickets.

scionb4
Posts: 503
Joined: Mon May 26, 2008 8:57 am

Re: Weight of the whole Institution, not just the Law School

Postby scionb4 » Sat Feb 06, 2010 5:56 pm

jayn3 wrote:
scionb4 wrote:
bighead715 wrote:everyone here is forgetting WAYNE STATE UNIVERSITY

the greatest university in the history of the world

shits on the entire pac 10 and big 10

dbags


I'm more partial to Peru State College in Peru, Nebraska. It's pretty high class.


Fun trivia: University of Nebraska-Lincoln's admissions packet includes instructions for ordering football tickets.


What else is the draw of going there?

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Borhas
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Re: Weight of the whole Institution, not just the Law School

Postby Borhas » Sat Feb 06, 2010 6:02 pm

the idea of public ivies is slightly more stupid than the idea of ivy league, that's saying a lot

ScaredWorkedBored
Posts: 409
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Re: Weight of the whole Institution, not just the Law School

Postby ScaredWorkedBored » Sat Feb 06, 2010 10:11 pm

Blindmelon wrote:
ScaredWorkedBored wrote:
PDaddy wrote:Stanford>NU
Berkeley>Michigan
UCLA>Illinois
USC>Wisconsin
Washington>Iowa
Minnesota>Arizona
Ohio St.>Arizona St.
Penn St.>Oregon(even if it had a law school)

Purdue> Washington St. (regardless)
Michigan St.>Oregon St. (Also)


I don't understand the two underlined, since they're inconsistent. If you are using the world rankings, Berkeley is way ahead of Michigan, but Wisconsin is even further ahead of USC. If you look at the ASU research, Wisconsin is similarly above USC and Berkeley and Michigan tie.

US News likes USC for being private, but their undergrad rankings are not at all credible with no public school in the top 20 and similar private bias throughout. Is anyone going to argue with a straight face that Duke (WTF), Rice, Emory and WUSTL are superior to Berkeley or that those schools + USC are superior to Michigan? :shock:


Now you're just discussing UG prestige as unrelated to the LS. UG does not matter in the slightest. For god's sake, NYU is almost on par with UChicago for LS when their UGs are worlds apart. UVA >>> WM for LS, yet WM's UG is harder to get into. BU/GW's UG are really nothing special, but their LSs carry a lot of weight in their regions.


Last I checked, the OP was "Weight of the Whole Institution, not just the Law School."

z*z
Posts: 41
Joined: Fri Oct 31, 2008 2:00 pm

Re: Weight of the whole Institution, not just the Law School

Postby z*z » Sat Feb 06, 2010 10:36 pm

This thread is probably the most blatant exercise in ego stroking ever exhibited on TLS.

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Borhas
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Re: Weight of the whole Institution, not just the Law School

Postby Borhas » Sat Feb 06, 2010 10:40 pm

z*z wrote:This thread is probably the most blatant exercise in ego stroking ever exhibited on TLS.

that's a Bold statement




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