Top 1-14 US News Predictions

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Helmholtz
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby Helmholtz » Sun Jan 31, 2010 4:42 pm

Halibut6 wrote:If you have doubts about going to a school if it moves down a couple ranking points, I would doubt your reasoning for going to that school.


Eh, I just think that maybe we should be able to get a refund or something if the school moves down too much. It's like false advertising.

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Helmholtz
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby Helmholtz » Sun Jan 31, 2010 4:47 pm

I see you Bosque. Not kidding. Schools use their USNWR rank to attract students, and students in turn base their decision on that information. If I choose Penn over Michigan because Penn is seen as better in 2009, I should be able to change my decision to Michigan if they're ranked higher in 2010, and Penn should refund my seat deposit. It's practically fraudulent on the schools' parts not to. The bait and switch stuff some of these schools pull is sickening.

EzraStiles
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby EzraStiles » Sun Jan 31, 2010 4:48 pm

I don't think it will be reflected for a couple of years, but the push Michigan will be making with its addition (to be completed by 2012 I believe?) and its recent surge in applications should soon move it ahead of Penn. Then again, I always feel like, especially here on TLS, Penn is the forgotten child of the T10...

Renzo
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby Renzo » Sun Jan 31, 2010 4:49 pm

Helmholtz wrote:I see you Bosque. Not kidding. Schools use their USNWR rank to attract students, and students in turn base their decision on that information. If I choose Penn over Michigan because Penn is seen as better in 2009, I should be able to change my decision to Michigan if they're ranked higher in 2010, and Penn should refund my seat deposit. It's practically fraudulent on the schools' parts not to. The bait and switch stuff some of these schools pull is sickening.

You can't seriously blame the schools for the whims of a magazine. No employer is keeping up with the year-by-year moves, so it hardly seems like it matters that much.

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bees
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby bees » Sun Jan 31, 2010 4:50 pm

EzraStiles wrote:I don't think it will be reflected for a couple of years, but the push Michigan will be making with its addition (to be completed by 2012 I believe?) and its recent surge in applications should soon move it ahead of Penn. Then again, I always feel like, especially here on TLS, Penn is the forgotten child of the T10...


If someone were to base all their knowledge of the T10 on this forum alone I would not be surprised if they had no idea Penn was one of the elite schools. They'd know there was some school called "P" but they'd be confused having never seen someone name it directly or even talk about it, ever, at all.

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Vincent Vega
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby Vincent Vega » Sun Jan 31, 2010 4:51 pm

I'd be happy to talk all day about P, if they'd let me in!

showNprove
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby showNprove » Sun Jan 31, 2010 4:52 pm

EzraStiles wrote:I don't think it will be reflected for a couple of years, but the push Michigan will be making with its addition (to be completed by 2012 I believe?) and its recent surge in applications should soon move it ahead of Penn. Then again, I always feel like, especially here on TLS, Penn is the forgotten child of the T10...

Perhaps the biggest reason why Michigan hasn't fallen out of the Top 10 yet is because they are in the middle of construction. That adds a lot to their expenditures per student. Michigan has the lowest class statistics and declining assessment scores. Once the construction stops, it's going to hurt Michigan, not help it.

Edit: unless they convince donors or the state to continue pouring in money like that without a major project in the works.
Last edited by showNprove on Sun Jan 31, 2010 4:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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reasonabledoubt
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby reasonabledoubt » Sun Jan 31, 2010 4:52 pm

1. Who
2. Gives
3. A
4. Shit
5. About
6. The
7. Flawed
8. Subjective
9. Manipulated
10. Ranking
11. System
12. From
13. A
14. Magazine?

The reliance on a singular magazine's ranking figures (interpreted as though it's an actual, scientific measure) is baffling.

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Helmholtz
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby Helmholtz » Sun Jan 31, 2010 4:53 pm

Renzo wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:I see you Bosque. Not kidding. Schools use their USNWR rank to attract students, and students in turn base their decision on that information. If I choose Penn over Michigan because Penn is seen as better in 2009, I should be able to change my decision to Michigan if they're ranked higher in 2010, and Penn should refund my seat deposit. It's practically fraudulent on the schools' parts not to. The bait and switch stuff some of these schools pull is sickening.

You can't seriously blame the schools for the whims of a magazine. No employer is keeping up with the year-by-year moves, so it hardly seems like it matters that much.


It's a symbiotic relationship between the schools and USWNR, they both use each other. Penn and Michigan both probably have a good idea of where they're going to be in the new rankings, and they know people like me base a huge part of their decision on the USWNR rankings. I'm pretty sure letting me place weight on a material factor of my decision, when that factor could, in fact, be far from the truth, is considered fraud in most states. I would be happy with just compensatory damages for app fees and seat deposits.

fortissimo
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby fortissimo » Sun Jan 31, 2010 4:55 pm

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Last edited by fortissimo on Sat Mar 20, 2010 1:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

showNprove
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby showNprove » Sun Jan 31, 2010 5:03 pm

fortissimo wrote:Michigan didn't start actual construction until this past year...meaning its expenditures were not reflected in past years' rankings. It also had a huge surge in applications this cycle, which won't be reflected until at least next year's rankings.

I guess it could just pull the "I'm a huge slut" card and start sending fee waivers to everyone like UVA did, but then wheres the fun in that?

Since I can't see Michigan's budget sheets, I don't know what has been included in their expenditures, but just because physical construction began this year doesn't mean they weren't paying architects for designs or making down payments before they submitted their information to USNWR. Anyway, TLS isn't the first place I've heard that Michigan has been helped by their construction project.

I still don't understand why people are opposed to free applications. When schools charge for every little thing they do, such as review applications, they are greedy money whores; when they make something free, they are whoring themselves out to attract more people. At least when applications are free, both sides get something they want.

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chadwick218
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby chadwick218 » Sun Jan 31, 2010 5:07 pm

Bosque wrote:I predict that once y'all are in law school you will never again care nearly so much about these silly rankings.


Ironically, I think that well over half of the posters to date are current 1L's.

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bees
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby bees » Sun Jan 31, 2010 5:09 pm

showNprove wrote:
fortissimo wrote:Michigan didn't start actual construction until this past year...meaning its expenditures were not reflected in past years' rankings. It also had a huge surge in applications this cycle, which won't be reflected until at least next year's rankings.

I guess it could just pull the "I'm a huge slut" card and start sending fee waivers to everyone like UVA did, but then wheres the fun in that?

Since I can't see Michigan's budget sheets, I don't know what has been included in their expenditures, but just because physical construction began this year doesn't mean they weren't paying architects for designs or making down payments before they submitted their information to USNWR. Anyway, TLS isn't the first place I've heard that Michigan has been helped by their construction project.

I still don't understand why people are opposed to free applications. When schools charge for every little thing they do, such as review applications, they are greedy money whores; when they make something free, they are whoring themselves out to attract more people. At least when applications are free, both sides get something they want.


It's just disappointing to see schools handing out fee waivers to people that have no chance in hell of being admitted because it will increase the number of applicants. :roll:

It's not just UVA, I got a fee waiver from Columbia (no idea why, LSAT I guess) when it was painfully obvious they were going to reject me if I applied.

fortissimo
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby fortissimo » Sun Jan 31, 2010 5:12 pm

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Last edited by fortissimo on Sat Mar 20, 2010 1:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

jnorsky
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby jnorsky » Sun Jan 31, 2010 5:15 pm

fortissimo wrote:
showNprove wrote:
fortissimo wrote:Michigan didn't start actual construction until this past year...meaning its expenditures were not reflected in past years' rankings. It also had a huge surge in applications this cycle, which won't be reflected until at least next year's rankings.

I guess it could just pull the "I'm a huge slut" card and start sending fee waivers to everyone like UVA did, but then wheres the fun in that?

Since I can't see Michigan's budget sheets, I don't know what has been included in their expenditures, but just because physical construction began this year doesn't mean they weren't paying architects for designs or making down payments before they submitted their information to USNWR. Anyway, TLS isn't the first place I've heard that Michigan has been helped by their construction project.

I still don't understand why people are opposed to free applications. When schools charge for every little thing they do, such as review applications, they are greedy money whores; when they make something free, they are whoring themselves out to attract more people. At least when applications are free, both sides get something they want.


You try to find out information about other law schools outside of TLS? Weird. Construction didn't start until this past summer though. Isn't USNews lagged at least 1 to 2 years before the rankings come out? Not sure how much they'd pay for "blue prints." :roll:

It's bad because instead of actually recruiting legit applicants, UVA seems to just spam anyone who has an LSAT over 160, even if they have no shot of getting in. It cheapens the process. I guess other schools can also employ this method if they want to game the rankings, but then the admissions process would blow worse than UVA's OCI.


Did they not do well this year? Or did they do worse than Penn and Michigan?

showNprove
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby showNprove » Sun Jan 31, 2010 5:15 pm

bees wrote:It's just disappointing to see schools handing out fee waivers to people that have no chance in hell of being admitted because it will increase the number of applicants. :roll:

It's not just UVA, I got a fee waiver from Columbia (no idea why, LSAT I guess) when it was painfully obvious they were going to reject me if I applied.

Before last cycle, I would have told you that I was one of those people. I got a fee waiver. I applied RD. I was admitted.

Whether it's Virginia or Columbia or any other school, no one should complain about free applications, even if the school is a long shot. Even long shots pay off sometimes.

This is good for you guys. Embrace it.

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Vincent Vega
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby Vincent Vega » Sun Jan 31, 2010 5:15 pm

UVA is toying with me. They gave me, like thousands of others, a fee waiver, and I expected to be an auto-ding, but they have been dragging this process out forever. Just let me know already; it's been three months, haven't you had time to look at the app yet? I digress.

fortissimo
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby fortissimo » Sun Jan 31, 2010 5:18 pm

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chadwick218
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby chadwick218 » Sun Jan 31, 2010 5:18 pm

Halibut6 wrote:UVA is toying with me. They gave me, like thousands of others, a fee waiver, and I expected to be an auto-ding, but they have been dragging this process out forever. Just let me know already; it's been three months, haven't you had time to look at the app yet? I digress.


I felt the same way last cycle. Are you willing to apply ED to UVA (seeing that an extension was made)? Have they set a date for extended ED notifications?

sfdreaming09
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby sfdreaming09 » Sun Jan 31, 2010 5:20 pm

fortissimo wrote:
showNprove wrote:
fortissimo wrote:Michigan didn't start actual construction until this past year...meaning its expenditures were not reflected in past years' rankings. It also had a huge surge in applications this cycle, which won't be reflected until at least next year's rankings.

I guess it could just pull the "I'm a huge slut" card and start sending fee waivers to everyone like UVA did, but then wheres the fun in that?

Since I can't see Michigan's budget sheets, I don't know what has been included in their expenditures, but just because physical construction began this year doesn't mean they weren't paying architects for designs or making down payments before they submitted their information to USNWR. Anyway, TLS isn't the first place I've heard that Michigan has been helped by their construction project.

I still don't understand why people are opposed to free applications. When schools charge for every little thing they do, such as review applications, they are greedy money whores; when they make something free, they are whoring themselves out to attract more people. At least when applications are free, both sides get something they want.


You try to find out information about other law schools outside of TLS? Weird. Construction didn't start until this past summer though. Isn't USNews lagged at least 1 to 2 years before the rankings come out? Not sure how much they'd pay for "blue prints." :roll:

It's bad because instead of actually recruiting legit applicants, UVA seems to just spam anyone who has an LSAT over 160, even if they have no shot of getting in. It cheapens the process. I guess other schools can also employ this method if they want to game the rankings, but then the admissions process would blow worse than UVA's OCI.


Exactly. You expect these kind of petty tactics from the likes of Cooley. Not from a school that considers itself to be among the top 10 in the country.

jnorsky
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby jnorsky » Sun Jan 31, 2010 5:20 pm

Did they not do well this year? Or did they do worse than Penn and Michigan?[/quote]

Supposedly too many people at UVA bid only on DC, which meant auto-fail at OCI. DC is defo the hardest market to get into. We can wait for the data, if that ever comes, from the career services.[/quote]

Why would people do this unless they have a stellar GPA. Do you go to UVA? If so, do you have estimates on how many got big law gigs for the summer in major markets? Do they share that info with you guys? Im interested because I did ED there instead of Penn and I want to know if I should regret it. haha

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D. H2Oman
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby D. H2Oman » Sun Jan 31, 2010 5:24 pm

Bitching about UVA because they hand out a lot of fee waivers is really stupid.

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bees
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby bees » Sun Jan 31, 2010 5:24 pm

showNprove wrote:
bees wrote:It's just disappointing to see schools handing out fee waivers to people that have no chance in hell of being admitted because it will increase the number of applicants. :roll:

It's not just UVA, I got a fee waiver from Columbia (no idea why, LSAT I guess) when it was painfully obvious they were going to reject me if I applied.

Before last cycle, I would have told you that I was one of those people. I got a fee waiver. I applied RD. I was admitted.

Whether it's Virginia or Columbia or any other school, no one should complain about free applications, even if the school is a long shot. Even long shots pay off sometimes.

This is good for you guys. Embrace it.


I'm going out on a limb and guessing: either your LSAT was 170+, your GPA was 3.85+, or you're a VA resident.

showNprove
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby showNprove » Sun Jan 31, 2010 5:24 pm

fortissimo wrote:You try to find out information about other law schools outside of TLS? Weird. Construction didn't start until this past summer though. Isn't USNews lagged at least 1 to 2 years before the rankings come out? Not sure how much they'd pay for "blue prints." :roll:

It's bad because instead of actually recruiting legit applicants, UVA seems to just spam anyone who has an LSAT over 160, even if they have no shot of getting in. It cheapens the process. I guess other schools can also employ this method if they want to game the rankings, but then the admissions process would blow worse than UVA's OCI.

It came up in passing as a side tidbit. I wasn't seeking the information out.

I still don't understand how this cheapens the admissions process or makes it any worse. There's nothing "prestigious" about applying to law school in the first place. Hitting "submit" on LSAC.org doesn't bestow any noble or divine quality upon you. Any average Joe with $75 and a 125 LSAT score can do it.

But you're saying a school should not do a mutually-beneficial act (school gets a bigger applicant pool to choose from and a lower acceptance rate; some marginal applicants get a dream come true by being admitted) because the prestige of writing a personal statement would be tattered?

fortissimo
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby fortissimo » Sun Jan 31, 2010 5:27 pm

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