Top 1-14 US News Predictions

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badfish
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby badfish » Tue Feb 02, 2010 10:48 am

VoidSix wrote:
boilercat wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:T3>T6>T14>T17>T1


Mine would look more like:

HYS
CC
NMVPB
DNC
GULC/UCLA/UT/Vandy


I would agree if NYU didn't have possibly the best faculty of any school in the nation. They can only go up.


Seriously, all this love for chicago is very much outdated. NYU's faculty is absolutely amazing. Combine that with their prime location and I the fact that they're a relatively new powerhouse, I honestly think it is one of the more exciting schools to be attending right now.

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badfish
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby badfish » Tue Feb 02, 2010 10:51 am

Dignan wrote:Why do you think that NYU might have the best faculty of any law school in the nation? (I'm not looking for a fight; I ask because I am genuinely curious.)


NYU has been poaching faculty from all of the T-6 for years and as far as Dean Ricky has told us, none of his professors or hires have left to go anywhere else. NYU is just throwing more money around than some of the other schools in the T-14 right now.

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rayiner
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby rayiner » Tue Feb 02, 2010 10:56 am

sjj05 wrote:Edit: I think engineers are great, but I am no way going to say engineering> all liberal arts. My roommate's ex-boyfriend was an engineer and he was stupider than a pile of rocks. No kidding, he once asked me what Israel was and another time if Thanksgiving is always on Thursday.

If he did well on the LSAT, he's a qualified and potentially-sucessful candidate in law school?


I just found out that Ted Kennedy died...

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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby sjj05 » Tue Feb 02, 2010 11:25 am

Aeroplane wrote:
sjj05 wrote:Edit: I think engineers are great, but I am no way going to say engineering> all liberal arts. My roommate's ex-boyfriend was an engineer and he was stupider than a pile of rocks. No kidding, he once asked me what Israel was and another time if Thanksgiving is always on Thursday.

If he did well on the LSAT, he's a qualified and potentially-sucessful candidate in law school?
The whole engineering/humanities debate aside, your logic here is not sound. Ignorant is not the same thing as stupid, not by a long shot. IMO ignorance is absolutely no obstacle to law school success.



Uh maybe. But I work at a major law firm now and I promise that there aren't any people who are "smart but ignorant" on the partner track.

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rayiner
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby rayiner » Tue Feb 02, 2010 11:25 am

sjj05 wrote:
Aeroplane wrote:
sjj05 wrote:Edit: I think engineers are great, but I am no way going to say engineering> all liberal arts. My roommate's ex-boyfriend was an engineer and he was stupider than a pile of rocks. No kidding, he once asked me what Israel was and another time if Thanksgiving is always on Thursday.

If he did well on the LSAT, he's a qualified and potentially-sucessful candidate in law school?
The whole engineering/humanities debate aside, your logic here is not sound. Ignorant is not the same thing as stupid, not by a long shot. IMO ignorance is absolutely no obstacle to law school success.



Uh maybe. But I work at a major law firm now and I promise that there aren't any people who are "smart but ignorant" on the partner track.


lolz.

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englawyer
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby englawyer » Tue Feb 02, 2010 11:28 am

sjj05 wrote:
Aeroplane wrote:
sjj05 wrote:Edit: I think engineers are great, but I am no way going to say engineering> all liberal arts. My roommate's ex-boyfriend was an engineer and he was stupider than a pile of rocks. No kidding, he once asked me what Israel was and another time if Thanksgiving is always on Thursday.

If he did well on the LSAT, he's a qualified and potentially-sucessful candidate in law school?
The whole engineering/humanities debate aside, your logic here is not sound. Ignorant is not the same thing as stupid, not by a long shot. IMO ignorance is absolutely no obstacle to law school success.



Uh maybe. But I work at a major law firm now and I promise that there aren't any people who are "smart but ignorant" on the partner track.


wow, partnership is based on whether or not you know your Holidays? I thought they didn't matter for lawyers anyway, since they will be at the office :o

09042014
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby 09042014 » Tue Feb 02, 2010 11:33 am

sjj05 wrote:
Aeroplane wrote:
sjj05 wrote:Edit: I think engineers are great, but I am no way going to say engineering> all liberal arts. My roommate's ex-boyfriend was an engineer and he was stupider than a pile of rocks. No kidding, he once asked me what Israel was and another time if Thanksgiving is always on Thursday.

If he did well on the LSAT, he's a qualified and potentially-sucessful candidate in law school?
The whole engineering/humanities debate aside, your logic here is not sound. Ignorant is not the same thing as stupid, not by a long shot. IMO ignorance is absolutely no obstacle to law school success.



Uh maybe. But I work at a major law firm now and I promise that there aren't any people who are "smart but ignorant" on the partner track.


What is that statement trying to express? That some engineers wouldn't be able to make parter track? Do you think every, or even most liberal arts students are smart enough to do that? I would have though all that education in the liberal arts would at least have taught you how to make a coherent argument.

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badfish
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby badfish » Tue Feb 02, 2010 11:35 am

Desert Fox wrote:
sjj05 wrote:
Aeroplane wrote:
sjj05 wrote:Edit: I think engineers are great, but I am no way going to say engineering> all liberal arts. My roommate's ex-boyfriend was an engineer and he was stupider than a pile of rocks. No kidding, he once asked me what Israel was and another time if Thanksgiving is always on Thursday.

If he did well on the LSAT, he's a qualified and potentially-sucessful candidate in law school?
The whole engineering/humanities debate aside, your logic here is not sound. Ignorant is not the same thing as stupid, not by a long shot. IMO ignorance is absolutely no obstacle to law school success.



Uh maybe. But I work at a major law firm now and I promise that there aren't any people who are "smart but ignorant" on the partner track.


What is that statement trying to express? That some engineers wouldn't be able to make parter track? Do you think every, or even most liberal arts students are smart enough to do that? I would have though all that education in the liberal arts would at least have taught you how to make a coherent argument.


Engineers aren't sociable enough to make the partner track, duh. Ancient Philosophy majors on the other hand...

09042014
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby 09042014 » Tue Feb 02, 2010 11:36 am

badfish wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
sjj05 wrote:
Aeroplane wrote: The whole engineering/humanities debate aside, your logic here is not sound. Ignorant is not the same thing as stupid, not by a long shot. IMO ignorance is absolutely no obstacle to law school success.



Uh maybe. But I work at a major law firm now and I promise that there aren't any people who are "smart but ignorant" on the partner track.


What is that statement trying to express? That some engineers wouldn't be able to make parter track? Do you think every, or even most liberal arts students are smart enough to do that? I would have though all that education in the liberal arts would at least have taught you how to make a coherent argument.


Engineers aren't sociable enough to make the partner track, duh. Ancient Philosophy majors on the other hand...


Don't be a hater! All my liberal arts friends are on manager track at starbucks. BigCoffee has better hours than Biglaw or engineering.

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Holly Golightly
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby Holly Golightly » Tue Feb 02, 2010 11:53 am

Wow, this thread just keeps getting more and more ridiculous... :roll: :lol:

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rayiner
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby rayiner » Tue Feb 02, 2010 11:56 am

Politics is a bad topic of conversation with clients. Ideally you'll wan to gauge their specific interest and adjust accordingly, but in general talkig abot sports will help you build a connection, while talking about Ted Kennedy is likely to just piss people off.

I was in an interview yesterday and turns out the interviewer went to Wake Forest for undergrad. It was a big ice breaker to talk about some friendly ACC competition.

fortissimo
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby fortissimo » Tue Feb 02, 2010 12:31 pm

delete
Last edited by fortissimo on Wed Feb 03, 2010 2:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby fortissimo » Tue Feb 02, 2010 12:35 pm

Bosque wrote:
fortissimo wrote:
insidethetwenty wrote:So where does Accounting fall into this hierarchy of difficult majors? I'm thinking harder than PoliSci/History/Liberal Arts, but significantly easier than Engineering/Advanced Math/Hard Sciences.


physics > applied math > chem/engineering > bio/econ > business/accounting > liberal arts

if it were a personal list, I'd probably put chemistry with physics. P-chem is probably the worst undergrad class ever.


"Engineering" is much to broad a category to stick into a list like that. It would be like have a category that said "science"... or "liberal arts" actually. There is a big difference between the different types.

For example, EE would be up with the physics majors, while IE would be down with the accountants.


I don't know about EE being with physics subject material wise. If you take into account labs and the hours you have to put in, sure. But if you want me to rank engineering alone, it's probably.

EE/EECS > Chem E/Comp E > Bio E > IEOR/Civ E/Mech E

Don't really know about nuclear engineering. The people I knew in ugrad who were in NE were pretty gunnerish, so I'd say with EECS or maybe Chem E.

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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby sjj05 » Tue Feb 02, 2010 12:39 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
sjj05 wrote:
Aeroplane wrote:
sjj05 wrote:Edit: I think engineers are great, but I am no way going to say engineering> all liberal arts. My roommate's ex-boyfriend was an engineer and he was stupider than a pile of rocks. No kidding, he once asked me what Israel was and another time if Thanksgiving is always on Thursday.

If he did well on the LSAT, he's a qualified and potentially-sucessful candidate in law school?
The whole engineering/humanities debate aside, your logic here is not sound. Ignorant is not the same thing as stupid, not by a long shot. IMO ignorance is absolutely no obstacle to law school success.



Uh maybe. But I work at a major law firm now and I promise that there aren't any people who are "smart but ignorant" on the partner track.


What is that statement trying to express? That some engineers wouldn't be able to make parter track? Do you think every, or even most liberal arts students are smart enough to do that? I would have though all that education in the liberal arts would at least have taught you how to make a coherent argument.


Don't be ridiculous. I didn't say engineers and I didn't mean engineers. I mean that any lawyer who embarrasses his firm is not going to do well professionally. Partners generally reward attorneys who can interact with clients and other attorneys without creating an awkward social situation or saying something dumb. You’re trying to diminish liberal arts majors and paint my argument as being anti-engineering/math/science/etc… which is untrue. All I am saying is that you chose to major in something where the top of the class is a 2.9 and don’t try to make me feel like an idiot because I didn’t.

Edit: Not stupid/not ignorant > stupid/ignorant. You disagree?
Last edited by sjj05 on Tue Feb 02, 2010 12:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

fortissimo
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby fortissimo » Tue Feb 02, 2010 12:40 pm

Aeroplane wrote:
sjj05 wrote:Edit: I think engineers are great, but I am no way going to say engineering> all liberal arts. My roommate's ex-boyfriend was an engineer and he was stupider than a pile of rocks. No kidding, he once asked me what Israel was and another time if Thanksgiving is always on Thursday.

If he did well on the LSAT, he's a qualified and potentially-sucessful candidate in law school?
The whole engineering/humanities debate aside, your logic here is not sound. Ignorant is not the same thing as stupid, not by a long shot. IMO ignorance is absolutely no obstacle to law school success.


Or how about the fact that we are talking about the difficulty of majors, not the stupidity of people who major in these fields? There are dumb people in every major, just fewer in the hard sciences because people get "weeded out" via self-selection (never attempting the major because of the notorious difficulty) or weeded out after certain classes like O-Chem. On the other hand, I have never heard of a person getting "weeded" out of Political Science.

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dood
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby dood » Tue Feb 02, 2010 12:43 pm

...
Last edited by dood on Tue Jun 29, 2010 8:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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los blancos
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby los blancos » Tue Feb 02, 2010 1:11 pm

fortissimo wrote:
SolarWind wrote:
boilercat wrote:
5ky wrote:Personally, I have a better GPA in my economics major than in my political science major. Political science is too subjective to consistently pull a 4.0 in.


Econ is too damn hard and random and curved to consistently pull a 4.0 in (at least at my school).


same here... my Math GPA > Econ, even though math was probably harder.


Econ at my ugrad was curved to a B-. Only the top 8-10% got As. But math as a subject is still harder, which is why I put math > econ in terms of undergrad difficulty/prestige. On the graduate level, it's another story, since you pretty much need to be a math major to get a PhD in econ.


Same at my UG, Econ was curved to B/B- depending on the class. That said, I think more than 10% got As.

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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby fortissimo » Tue Feb 02, 2010 1:14 pm

delete
Last edited by fortissimo on Wed Feb 03, 2010 12:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

insidethetwenty
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby insidethetwenty » Tue Feb 02, 2010 1:41 pm

Desert Fox wrote:T3>T6>T14>T17>T1


This is probably the best assessment, but I'd break it out a little further...

HYS
>>>
CCN
>>
MVPB
DNCG
>>
UVT
>
T1

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HJO
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby HJO » Tue Feb 02, 2010 3:00 pm

sjj05 wrote:STOP: HAMMERTIME

Since when is political science not a hard major? I fail to be impressed when students who major in engineering, applied mathematics, etc... bitch and moan about how GPAs are arbitrary and should not be heavily weighted in law school admissions. If you want someone to take your sciences/engineering degree seriously, apply to MIT for some kind of graduate program. This is law school, everyone majors in political science or english, which, coincidentally, at any 4-year private liberal arts college worth its salt, is a difficult, reading and writing intensive major. Don't try to compare my degree to someone's communications/criminal justice/anthropology degree from Penn State or WVU. It's not my fault you majored in something ridiculous.

Don't hate.



I agree with this to degree. I have known kids that have transfered out of poly-sci into a hard science major and ended up doing tremendously better. It depends on how you think, what you like, etc. I know a lot of science majors that are "pre-med" and getting straight C's and it is due to the fact that they simply don't put much effort into their studies ( I know this is not the case all the time, but I think it is more common than people let on). To tell me it is harder to get a 2.0 in a chem or math major than it is to get a 3.8+ in poly-sci isn't right.

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Bosque
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby Bosque » Tue Feb 02, 2010 3:31 pm

fortissimo wrote:
Bosque wrote:
fortissimo wrote:
insidethetwenty wrote:So where does Accounting fall into this hierarchy of difficult majors? I'm thinking harder than PoliSci/History/Liberal Arts, but significantly easier than Engineering/Advanced Math/Hard Sciences.


physics > applied math > chem/engineering > bio/econ > business/accounting > liberal arts

if it were a personal list, I'd probably put chemistry with physics. P-chem is probably the worst undergrad class ever.


"Engineering" is much to broad a category to stick into a list like that. It would be like have a category that said "science"... or "liberal arts" actually. There is a big difference between the different types.

For example, EE would be up with the physics majors, while IE would be down with the accountants.


I don't know about EE being with physics subject material wise. If you take into account labs and the hours you have to put in, sure. But if you want me to rank engineering alone, it's probably.

EE/EECS > Chem E/Comp E > Bio E > IEOR/Civ E/Mech E

Don't really know about nuclear engineering. The people I knew in ugrad who were in NE were pretty gunnerish, so I'd say with EECS or maybe Chem E.


By Bio E, do you mean biomedical? Because that ends up basically being a specialised EE degree, and is most certainly harder than Chem. Also as much as I may make fun of them, MechEs do work harder than Imaginary Engineers.

And as to EE v. Physics, it really depends on the program. some places physics is going to be harder, some places EE is going to be harder. So rather than trying to determine which is harder across the board, I would rather group them together.

09042014
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby 09042014 » Tue Feb 02, 2010 3:50 pm

insidethetwenty wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:T3>T6>T14>T17>T1


This is probably the best assessment, but I'd break it out a little further...

HYS
>>>
CCN
>
MVPB
DNC
G
>>
UVT
>
T1


Fixed it for me.

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Drew2010
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby Drew2010 » Tue Feb 02, 2010 4:01 pm

Feel free to hate me, but I tend to look at it like this:

HYS > CCN > PB > MVND > CG

09042014
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby 09042014 » Tue Feb 02, 2010 4:14 pm

HJO wrote:
sjj05 wrote:STOP: HAMMERTIME

Since when is political science not a hard major? I fail to be impressed when students who major in engineering, applied mathematics, etc... bitch and moan about how GPAs are arbitrary and should not be heavily weighted in law school admissions. If you want someone to take your sciences/engineering degree seriously, apply to MIT for some kind of graduate program. This is law school, everyone majors in political science or english, which, coincidentally, at any 4-year private liberal arts college worth its salt, is a difficult, reading and writing intensive major. Don't try to compare my degree to someone's communications/criminal justice/anthropology degree from Penn State or WVU. It's not my fault you majored in something ridiculous.

Don't hate.



I agree with this to degree. I have known kids that have transfered out of poly-sci into a hard science major and ended up doing tremendously better. It depends on how you think, what you like, etc. I know a lot of science majors that are "pre-med" and getting straight C's and it is due to the fact that they simply don't put much effort into their studies ( I know this is not the case all the time, but I think it is more common than people let on). To tell me it is harder to get a 2.0 in a chem or math major than it is to get a 3.8+ in poly-sci isn't right.


It depends how smart you are, what your strengths are, and how much worse you are willing to put in.

For someone with average to below average intelligence it may be harder to get a 2.0 in physics than to get a 3.8 in poli sci, because no matter how hard someone tries they may not be able to get an A in hard science courses.

But for two people who can get LSAT's that qualify them for the T14, the 3.8 is much harder than a 2.0.

The minimum required intelligence for science and math classes is higher than for philosophy, history classes and business classes. That being said just about everyone at a T14 is well above the minimum intelligence for both.

You also have people who can't read and write, but can do math. For them poli sci would be a nightmare. But for a normal person, liberal arts classes are pretty easy. It is basically about how much work you put in.

You take someone like me, add in laziness, and doing as little work as possible, and I get B's with a sprinkling of C's, yet in the few philosophy and history classes I took, I got A-'s with almost no effort.

Fundamentally science courses are more problem solving while liberal arts are much more memorization based.

My point really is that its extremely hard to compare a GPA in a liberal art and one in math/science/engineering.

A 2.7 in engineering could mean they didn't work as hard as most did (which BTW is a lot in engineering, people study an insane amount of hours), or it could mean they just aren't that bright.

A 2.7 in liberal arts usually means the person put no effort in. A 3.5 in liberal arts could be mean smart and lazy, or average with a decent work ethic.

/rant

sumus romani
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby sumus romani » Tue Feb 02, 2010 4:44 pm

Sorry, but this is a "meta-ranking" question. TLSers sometimes say that one or two of the t14 will fall out and another school or two will slip in. What will this entail? Let me explain the question. t14 schools are so-defined by their ranking (or persistent ranking over the years). But why isolate the t14, rather than say, the t20. The very category of t14 is said to be non-arbitrary in a absolutely crucial sense: Schools in the t14 are also said to be the only schools with a real national reach (at least in decent or better job markets).

Say G-town drops out, and Vandy takes it place. Does this mean that Vandy will somehow all of the sudden gain national reach? Or does is mean that G-town will all of the sudden lose it national reach? My hunch is that if Vandy regularly gets in the t14, with G-town frequently at 14 or 15, then there will no longer be a t14, but a t15. This is to say that Vandy gain prestige and therefore will get national reach--the 't14' line being then arbitrary.

I understand that the national reach thing is a bit moot ITE, but I would like to hear anyone's thoughts on this. In any case, what I am trying to suggest is that it won't necessarily matter if a school drops a place or two at the bottom, so long as another school gain in prestige. etc. Everyone seems obsessed about who is in and out of the t14, my hunch is that it doesn't really matter, and might be good for those seeking legal education to have more schools with national reach.




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