Top 1-14 US News Predictions

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SHARK WEEK!
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby SHARK WEEK! » Mon Feb 01, 2010 7:25 pm

OMG. USNWR 2010 Law School Rankings Leaked!


1. Yale
2. Harvard
3. Stanford
4. Chicago
5. Columbia
6. NYU
7. Cal/Michigan
9. Penn
10. Northwestern
11. Virginia/Duke
13. Cornell
14. UCLA
------------------
15. Vanderbilt/Texas
17. USC
18. WUSTL

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SHARK WEEK!
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby SHARK WEEK! » Mon Feb 01, 2010 7:32 pm

Oh yea.

19. Georgetown

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los blancos
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby los blancos » Mon Feb 01, 2010 7:34 pm

Hmm... this could get you banned. :mrgreen:

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stratocophic
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby stratocophic » Mon Feb 01, 2010 7:36 pm

boilercat wrote:Hmm... this could get you banned. :mrgreen:


Not by helm, he bleeds blue and maize these days

DanInALionsDen
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby DanInALionsDen » Mon Feb 01, 2010 8:01 pm

sjj05 wrote:STOP: HAMMERTIME

Since when is political science not a hard major? I fail to be impressed when students who major in engineering, applied mathematics, etc... bitch and moan about how GPAs are arbitrary and should not be heavily weighted in law school admissions. If you want someone to take your sciences/engineering degree seriously, apply to MIT for some kind of graduate program. This is law school, everyone majors in political science or english, which, coincidentally, at any 4-year private liberal arts college worth its salt, is a difficult, reading and writing intensive major. Don't try to compare my degree to someone's communications/criminal justice/anthropology degree from Penn State or WVU. It's not my fault you majored in something ridiculous.

Don't hate.


I think the real issue here is personal interest. I didn't choose to major in English and History based on the difficulty of the coursework, I chose my majors because they contained the subject matter that I found most appealing. As for people with "harder" majors than me, I don't deny that the grading scale they are judged by is more difficult, but I cannot see why that should be something they drone on about in internet forums or in conversation, since none of us are imposing that condition on them. Their real contention is with their own department heads at their own undergraduate institutions. Badgering people with "easier" majors for their high GPAs seems to me like a pity plea mixed with academic angst. It's as though they have to insist that they are smarter than we liberal arts majors, even though we have higher GPAs, and we better not forget it, and when/if we get into better law schools then them, we had better know it was only because we took the easy way out. I'll probably get a lot of shit for this on here, but oh well.

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stratocophic
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby stratocophic » Mon Feb 01, 2010 8:14 pm

DanInALionsDen wrote:
sjj05 wrote:STOP: HAMMERTIME

Since when is political science not a hard major? I fail to be impressed when students who major in engineering, applied mathematics, etc... bitch and moan about how GPAs are arbitrary and should not be heavily weighted in law school admissions. If you want someone to take your sciences/engineering degree seriously, apply to MIT for some kind of graduate program. This is law school, everyone majors in political science or english, which, coincidentally, at any 4-year private liberal arts college worth its salt, is a difficult, reading and writing intensive major. Don't try to compare my degree to someone's communications/criminal justice/anthropology degree from Penn State or WVU. It's not my fault you majored in something ridiculous.

Don't hate.


I think the real issue here is personal interest. I didn't choose to major in English and History based on the difficulty of the coursework, I chose my majors because they contained the subject matter that I found most appealing. As for people with "harder" majors than me, I don't deny that the grading scale they are judged by is more difficult, but I cannot see why that should be something they drone on about in internet forums or in conversation, since none of us are imposing that condition on them. Their real contention is with their own department heads at their own undergraduate institutions. Badgering people with "easier" majors for their high GPAs seems to me like a pity plea mixed with academic angst. It's as though they have to insist that they are smarter than we liberal arts majors, even though we have higher GPAs, and we better not forget it, and when/if we get into better law schools then them, we had better know it was only because we took the easy way out. I'll probably get a lot of shit for this on here, but oh well.


Most of us don't have a problem with you folks having higher GPAs. It's the nature of the beast. It's mainly the bitching about how the unwashed masses of science majors with low GPAs should be barred from entry into the T14, as was outlined by some troll in an earlier post. We made our choice, and we typically had better job prospects coming out of undergrad as a result. Works out great for those who don't change their minds about what they want to do, not so great for those of us who become law school applicants. Since most of us go into IP/patent law anyway, we're essentially diversity candidates (check the percentages of science/engineering candidates accepted: it's lower than minority figures for most schools) competing for spots they have to fill (because PS and English majors can't do patent law, so they need us for that particular program). I don't think we're truly competing with you guys as a result, so some of the rancor is probably misdirected.

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los blancos
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby los blancos » Mon Feb 01, 2010 8:18 pm

barrinmb wrote:
DanInALionsDen wrote:
sjj05 wrote:STOP: HAMMERTIME

Since when is political science not a hard major? I fail to be impressed when students who major in engineering, applied mathematics, etc... bitch and moan about how GPAs are arbitrary and should not be heavily weighted in law school admissions. If you want someone to take your sciences/engineering degree seriously, apply to MIT for some kind of graduate program. This is law school, everyone majors in political science or english, which, coincidentally, at any 4-year private liberal arts college worth its salt, is a difficult, reading and writing intensive major. Don't try to compare my degree to someone's communications/criminal justice/anthropology degree from Penn State or WVU. It's not my fault you majored in something ridiculous.

Don't hate.


I think the real issue here is personal interest. I didn't choose to major in English and History based on the difficulty of the coursework, I chose my majors because they contained the subject matter that I found most appealing. As for people with "harder" majors than me, I don't deny that the grading scale they are judged by is more difficult, but I cannot see why that should be something they drone on about in internet forums or in conversation, since none of us are imposing that condition on them. Their real contention is with their own department heads at their own undergraduate institutions. Badgering people with "easier" majors for their high GPAs seems to me like a pity plea mixed with academic angst. It's as though they have to insist that they are smarter than we liberal arts majors, even though we have higher GPAs, and we better not forget it, and when/if we get into better law schools then them, we had better know it was only because we took the easy way out. I'll probably get a lot of shit for this on here, but oh well.


Most of us don't have a problem with you folks having higher GPAs. It's the nature of the beast. It's mainly the bitching about how the unwashed masses of science majors with low GPAs should be barred from entry into the T14, as was outlined by some troll in an earlier post. We made our choice, and we typically had better job prospects coming out of undergrad as a result. Works out great for those who don't change their minds about what they want to do, not so great for those of us who become law school applicants. Since most of us go into IP/patent law anyway, we're essentially diversity candidates (check the percentages of science/engineering candidates accepted: it's lower than minority figures for most schools) competing for spots they have to fill (because PS and English majors can't do patent law, so they need us for that particular program). I don't think we're truly competing with you guys as a result, so some of the rancor is probably misdirected.


QFT. FWIW engineers bitching about their hard GPA-deflating major is just as annoying as humanities majors who bitch about splitters getting into T14s.

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SHARK WEEK!
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby SHARK WEEK! » Mon Feb 01, 2010 8:24 pm

boilercat wrote:
QFT. FWIW engineers bitching about their hard GPA-deflating major is just as annoying as humanities majors who bitch about splitters getting into T14s.


+1

Except I don't think the person earlier was really complaining about splitters, so much as she/he was complaining about how the USNWR encourages admittance of splitters while discouraging really well-qualified people who didn't quite place 1 point in either category above the magic-median. I've got nothing against splitters, power to them, but the system as is definitely gives them insulation, and dare I say an advantage that is, by itself, unearned solely by their status as a splitter.

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stratocophic
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby stratocophic » Mon Feb 01, 2010 8:30 pm

boilercat wrote:
QFT. FWIW engineers bitching about their hard GPA-deflating major is just as annoying as humanities majors who bitch about splitters getting into T14s.


I hate to point out that the emperor has no clothes, but the best engineering students still have GPAs on par with liberal arts majors. It's usually just that those of us applying to law school aren't the best :lol: I never should've been an engineering major, given my particular skill set, but I thought it was interesting and it turns out that I [strike]kind of[/strike] totally suck at calculus. I'm as guilty about the griping as anyone else, but I'm pretty sure it's a troll provoking it whenever I do it; I'm just a sucker for a pointless argument :oops:

SHARK WEEK! wrote:
boilercat wrote:
QFT. FWIW engineers bitching about their hard GPA-deflating major is just as annoying as humanities majors who bitch about splitters getting into T14s.


+1

Except I don't think the person earlier was really complaining about splitters, so much as she/he was complaining about how the USNWR encourages admittance of splitters while discouraging really well-qualified people who didn't quite place 1 point in either category above the magic-median. I've got nothing against splitters, power to them, but the system as is definitely gives them insulation, and dare I say an advantage that is, by itself, unearned solely by their status as a splitter.


Eh, I'd say it evens the playing field in some cases. My GPA may be poor compared to most other applicants, but I'd pit myself against the vast majority in terms of reasoning and communication abilities. Maybe that would pan out, maybe it wouldn't. I'll stick with what I said about science and tech splitters being considered for diversity purposes, the rest of you unbalanced types can answer for yourselves :P

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Aeroplane
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby Aeroplane » Mon Feb 01, 2010 8:33 pm

All this talk about the "qualification" of splitters makes me want to remind everyone that 1L success is generally achieved by a few months of successful prep for a very small number of high-pressure, time-limited exams.

09042014
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby 09042014 » Mon Feb 01, 2010 8:38 pm

barrinmb wrote:
boilercat wrote:
QFT. FWIW engineers bitching about their hard GPA-deflating major is just as annoying as humanities majors who bitch about splitters getting into T14s.


I hate to point out that the emperor has no clothes, but the best engineering students still have GPAs on par with liberal arts majors. It's usually just that those of us applying to law school aren't the best :lol: I never should've been an engineering major, given my particular skill set, but I thought it was interesting and it turns out that I [strike]kind of[/strike] totally suck at calculus.


Engineering courses grade on a curve. A harsh curve at most schools. Liberal arts classes give out A's like candy.

The average gpa for a liberal arts major is significantly higher than the average engineering major. That isn't even counting for differences in difficulty.

insidethetwenty
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby insidethetwenty » Mon Feb 01, 2010 8:44 pm

So where does Accounting fall into this hierarchy of difficult majors? I'm thinking harder than PoliSci/History/Liberal Arts, but significantly easier than Engineering/Advanced Math/Hard Sciences.

fortissimo
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby fortissimo » Mon Feb 01, 2010 8:50 pm

insidethetwenty wrote:So where does Accounting fall into this hierarchy of difficult majors? I'm thinking harder than PoliSci/History/Liberal Arts, but significantly easier than Engineering/Advanced Math/Hard Sciences.


physics > applied math > chem/engineering > bio/econ > business/accounting > liberal arts

if it were a personal list, I'd probably put chemistry with physics. P-chem is probably the worst undergrad class ever.
Last edited by fortissimo on Mon Feb 01, 2010 8:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby stratocophic » Mon Feb 01, 2010 8:51 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
barrinmb wrote:
boilercat wrote:
QFT. FWIW engineers bitching about their hard GPA-deflating major is just as annoying as humanities majors who bitch about splitters getting into T14s.


I hate to point out that the emperor has no clothes, but the best engineering students still have GPAs on par with liberal arts majors. It's usually just that those of us applying to law school aren't the best :lol: I never should've been an engineering major, given my particular skill set, but I thought it was interesting and it turns out that I [strike]kind of[/strike] totally suck at calculus.


Engineering courses grade on a curve. A harsh curve at most schools. Liberal arts classes give out A's like candy.

The average gpa for a liberal arts major is significantly higher than the average engineering major. That isn't even counting for differences in difficulty.


That's fair. The existence of a difficulty difference is something of which we're not going to convince people who have had no first or second-hand (through a friend or significant other) exposure, though. We've taken both types of classes and seen the difference for ourselves, but the number of English students taking Circuits and Thermodynamics is about what you'd expect it to be. No slight intended, because why would anyone want to take those classes unless they were required for their major?

DanInALionsDen
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby DanInALionsDen » Mon Feb 01, 2010 10:43 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
barrinmb wrote:
boilercat wrote:
QFT. FWIW engineers bitching about their hard GPA-deflating major is just as annoying as humanities majors who bitch about splitters getting into T14s.


I hate to point out that the emperor has no clothes, but the best engineering students still have GPAs on par with liberal arts majors. It's usually just that those of us applying to law school aren't the best :lol: I never should've been an engineering major, given my particular skill set, but I thought it was interesting and it turns out that I [strike]kind of[/strike] totally suck at calculus.


Engineering courses grade on a curve. A harsh curve at most schools. Liberal arts classes give out A's like candy.

The average gpa for a liberal arts major is significantly higher than the average engineering major. That isn't even counting for differences in difficulty.


I'm just going to point out that this is exactly what I was talking about earlier. Why are you trying to put down my major, and a number of other people's because you're not at the top of yours? Your issue is with your own department and their grading standards.

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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby rayiner » Mon Feb 01, 2010 10:49 pm

Aeroplane wrote:All this talk about the "qualification" of splitters makes me want to remind everyone that 1L success is generally achieved by a few months of successful prep for a very small number of high-pressure, time-limited exams.

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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby vanwinkle » Mon Feb 01, 2010 10:51 pm

DanInALionsDen wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Engineering courses grade on a curve. A harsh curve at most schools. Liberal arts classes give out A's like candy.

The average gpa for a liberal arts major is significantly higher than the average engineering major. That isn't even counting for differences in difficulty.


I'm just going to point out that this is exactly what I was talking about earlier. Why are you trying to put down my major, and a number of other people's because you're not at the top of yours? Your issue is with your own department and their grading standards.

He's not putting down your major so much as pointing out a reality in the difference in GPAs. And I think his issue is with your department and how it gives out more A's, not with his and how it gives out less.

There is a lot of grade inflation especially in liberal arts programs these days. Engineering departments resist that, perhaps because being able to tell who's the smartest of the bunch actually has the potential to make a difference and save lives given the work engineers are asked to do. A liberal arts major is never going to be entrusted to make plans that if wrong could kill massive numbers of people, so there's less harm in letting them all have A's.

This has the unfortunate effect of being so much harder on engineering majors that even a 3.0+ GPA can be considered good, while a liberal arts major having less than a 3.5 makes you wonder if they have some kind of disability or impairment they should get tested for.

09042014
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby 09042014 » Mon Feb 01, 2010 10:51 pm

DanInALionsDen wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
barrinmb wrote:
boilercat wrote:
QFT. FWIW engineers bitching about their hard GPA-deflating major is just as annoying as humanities majors who bitch about splitters getting into T14s.


I hate to point out that the emperor has no clothes, but the best engineering students still have GPAs on par with liberal arts majors. It's usually just that those of us applying to law school aren't the best :lol: I never should've been an engineering major, given my particular skill set, but I thought it was interesting and it turns out that I [strike]kind of[/strike] totally suck at calculus.


Engineering courses grade on a curve. A harsh curve at most schools. Liberal arts classes give out A's like candy.

The average gpa for a liberal arts major is significantly higher than the average engineering major. That isn't even counting for differences in difficulty.


I'm just going to point out that this is exactly what I was talking about earlier. Why are you trying to put down my major, and a number of other people's because you're not at the top of yours? Your issue is with your own department and their grading standards.


Because liberal arts degrees didn't use to hand out A's like candy. Grade inflation is a relatively new phenomenon. I'm not attacking your major, but it is easier to get an A. I wasn't bitching about it either, merely responding to other posters.

Stop acting butthurt about it. I'm not saying my 2.8 should be better than your 3.8. Or even anywhere near it.

My main point is GPA is extremely subjective, not objective.

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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby Bosque » Mon Feb 01, 2010 11:23 pm

fortissimo wrote:
insidethetwenty wrote:So where does Accounting fall into this hierarchy of difficult majors? I'm thinking harder than PoliSci/History/Liberal Arts, but significantly easier than Engineering/Advanced Math/Hard Sciences.


physics > applied math > chem/engineering > bio/econ > business/accounting > liberal arts

if it were a personal list, I'd probably put chemistry with physics. P-chem is probably the worst undergrad class ever.


"Engineering" is much to broad a category to stick into a list like that. It would be like have a category that said "science"... or "liberal arts" actually. There is a big difference between the different types.

For example, EE would be up with the physics majors, while IE would be down with the accountants.

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los blancos
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby los blancos » Mon Feb 01, 2010 11:27 pm

Bosque wrote:
fortissimo wrote:
insidethetwenty wrote:So where does Accounting fall into this hierarchy of difficult majors? I'm thinking harder than PoliSci/History/Liberal Arts, but significantly easier than Engineering/Advanced Math/Hard Sciences.


physics > applied math > chem/engineering > bio/econ > business/accounting > liberal arts

if it were a personal list, I'd probably put chemistry with physics. P-chem is probably the worst undergrad class ever.


"Engineering" is much to broad a category to stick into a list like that. It would be like have a category that said "science"... or "liberal arts" actually. There is a big difference between the different types.

For example, EE would be up with the physics majors, while IE would be down with the accountants.


I've heard IE's pretty tough. At least tougher than Econ at my school.

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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby Aeroplane » Mon Feb 01, 2010 11:32 pm

boilercat wrote:
Bosque wrote: "Engineering" is much to broad a category to stick into a list like that. It would be like have a category that said "science"... or "liberal arts" actually. There is a big difference between the different types.

For example, EE would be up with the physics majors, while IE would be down with the accountants.


I've heard IE's pretty tough. At least tougher than Econ at my school.
I'm going to stick up for IE here. I have some basis for comparison, as I completed most of the core comp sci curriculum before bailing to IE. Our curriculum at Cornell was math & theory heavy, and several of the core courses were challenging. OTOH we also had some easy random requirements like Accounting & Org Behavior. We also had to take all the core Engineering classes, just like everyone else. On the whole, it's way less time consuming than comp sci/ee courses because there's very few projects. But it's nothing like accounting.

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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby 09042014 » Mon Feb 01, 2010 11:33 pm

Bosque wrote:
fortissimo wrote:
insidethetwenty wrote:So where does Accounting fall into this hierarchy of difficult majors? I'm thinking harder than PoliSci/History/Liberal Arts, but significantly easier than Engineering/Advanced Math/Hard Sciences.


physics > applied math > chem/engineering > bio/econ > business/accounting > liberal arts

if it were a personal list, I'd probably put chemistry with physics. P-chem is probably the worst undergrad class ever.


"Engineering" is much to broad a category to stick into a list like that. It would be like have a category that said "science"... or "liberal arts" actually. There is a big difference between the different types.

For example, EE would be up with the physics majors, while IE would be down with the accountants.


And general engineering isn't real engineering. Though that might be a UIUC thing.

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5ky
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby 5ky » Mon Feb 01, 2010 11:37 pm

Personally, I have a better GPA in my economics major than in my political science major. Political science is too subjective to consistently pull a 4.0 in.

charlesjd
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby charlesjd » Mon Feb 01, 2010 11:38 pm

PDaddy wrote:1) Yale
1) Harvard
3) Stanford
4) Columbia
5) NYU
6) Chicago
7) Penn
8) UVA
9) Berkeley
10) Michigan
11) Northwestern
12) Duke
13) Georgetown
14) Vanderbilt


The rest of the top-25:
15) Cornell
15) UCLA
17) Texas
18) USC
19) Minnesota
19) WUSTL
21) Illinois

22) N.D.
23) Emory
24) BC
25) BU
25) GWU
25) Fordham

I felt obligated to list the rest since I bumped Cornell from the lineup.


Blatant Indiana trolling

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los blancos
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Re: Top 1-14 US News Predictions

Postby los blancos » Mon Feb 01, 2010 11:43 pm

5ky wrote:Personally, I have a better GPA in my economics major than in my political science major. Political science is too subjective to consistently pull a 4.0 in.


Econ is too damn hard and random and curved to consistently pull a 4.0 in (at least at my school).




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