Top Law Schools

when do the 2010 rankings come out??

April.

From what I can tell, the two quickest ways to provoke the TLS community are to:

1) Try to predict the future USN rankings.

2) Say anything about UVa.

Y
h/s
columbia
C/nyu
b
m
p
UVA
n
Texas/gt
cornell

Y
H
S
C
CN
MVPB
DN
CG

UCLA has to stay out simply because it doesn't have a single letter that works well for it. Maybe La...but I don't like that.

Quite certain m*ch*g*n's fast and furious demise in the college football world is having a spillover effect onto its USNWR ranking. I'd say T30 at best this year

Few clarifying questions:

1. How is everyone so convinced that chicago will be tied with nyu?

2. Why is michigan falling and uva climbing?

3. Why does berkeley fall in virtually all of these?

miamiman wrote:Few clarifying questions:

1. How is everyone so convinced that chicago will be tied with nyu?

2. Why is michigan falling and uva climbing?

3. Why does berkeley fall in virtually all of these?

1. I think that everyone just recognizes that that, at least, is its deserved place.

2. This may have something to due with the UVa slant of the members of this site coupled with the recent decline in the perception of Michigan in all areas (Prestige, state's economy, etc.). I saw Ken explain his thoughts on the decline of Michigan in another thread.

3. This one has more to do with Chicago moving up. I think that any move down that is predicted is magnified by the fact that most people think it is well out of its league being tied with Chicago. It is clearly more of a peer school to MVP than to CCN.

-

miamiman wrote:Few clarifying questions:

1. How is everyone so convinced that chicago will be tied with nyu?

2. Why is michigan falling and uva climbing?

3. Why does berkeley fall in virtually all of these?

(1-3) Everyone is just pulling these things out of their ass. (Except for me, I used an advanced mathematical model based on 1000's of interviews with hiring committees from top law firms)

Oh, ok then. Just glad to establish that all of these purported insights are actually arbitrary opinions with little to no predictive value.

With that said, as a future uofc student, I do love all of the chicago love but I have no idea why this board gives the school so much street cred. I genuinely view ucb and uofc as equals - but if berk's oci was as miserable a bloodbath as some allege, perhaps chicago is the stronger school ite.

Thanks

Rand M. wrote:

miamiman wrote:Few clarifying questions:

1. How is everyone so convinced that chicago will be tied with nyu?

2. Why is michigan falling and uva climbing?

3. Why does berkeley fall in virtually all of these?

1. I think that everyone just recognizes that that, at least, is its deserved place.

Psssh. NYU brought in 3 new IP profs, hired away international law profs from CLS and HLS, and got Epstein to move his official job to NYU from Chicago (even though he'll still be splitting his time both places). They also started a clerkship office to boost those numbers. Chicago might have the more prestigious name, but it's doing nothing to play the rankings game.

miamiman wrote:Oh, ok then. Just glad to establish that all of these purported insights are actually arbitrary opinions with little to no predictive value.

With that said, as a future uofc student, I do love all of the chicago love but I have no idea why this board gives the school so much street cred. I genuinely view ucb and uofc as equals - but if berk's oci was as miserable a bloodbath as some allege, perhaps chicago is the stronger school ite.

Thanks

Chicago is the stronger school in every economy. Most people will tell you that the only way that Chicago suffers in US News is the issue of per capita expenditures. NYU for instance spends way more money, but does not best Chicago in most other respects. For employment prospects Chicago seems to have more in common with Columbia than Berkeley. Outside of HYS I don't think there are any other schools that are "clearly" better than Chicago. Chicago's no. 6 ranking belies its true quality, which can be seen in its reputation scores, elite firm placement, clerkship placement and faculty ratings. Plus, the small size of Chicago gives it a distinct advantage ITE since firms can't afford to cut back on their Chicago grads nearly as much.

Renzo wrote:

Rand M. wrote:

miamiman wrote:Few clarifying questions:

1. How is everyone so convinced that chicago will be tied with nyu?

2. Why is michigan falling and uva climbing?

3. Why does berkeley fall in virtually all of these?

1. I think that everyone just recognizes that that, at least, is its deserved place.

Psssh. NYU brought in 3 new IP profs, hired away international law profs from CLS and HLS, and got Epstein to move his official job to NYU from Chicago (even though he'll still be splitting his time both places). They also started a clerkship office to boost those numbers. Chicago might have the more prestigious name, but it's doing nothing to play the rankings game.

So you think NYU is clearly superior to Chicago? My only point was that it is at least as good. I was pushing it any farther than that, just saying that any argument has to start with them as at least equal. "Gaming" the rankings doesn't really make an institution better does it?

Chicago is the stronger school in every economy. Most people will tell you that the only way that Chicago suffers in US News is the issue of per capita expenditures. NYU for instance spends way more money, but does not best Chicago in most other respects. For employment prospects Chicago seems to have more in common with Columbia than Berkeley. Outside of HYS I don't think there are any other schools that are "clearly" better than Chicago. Chicago's no. 6 ranking belies its true quality, which can be seen in its reputation scores, elite firm placement, clerkship placement and faculty ratings.

Oh, so you have an anecdote and a personal opinion? You must be right, then.

Don't get me wrong, UChi is a great school, and I am the first to argue that the USNWR lists have far less to do with reality than people think. But the discussion was about who is moving up and down the USNWR ranking, not about what schools are your favorite.

Rand M. wrote:Plus, the small size of Chicago gives it a distinct advantage ITE since firms can't afford to cut back on their Chicago grads nearly as much.

This is pretty silly. It assumes firms have some quota/ratio that they have to fill from each school. I generally agree that small classes are a hiring advantage, but not because of your imaginary quota system, but because each individual has more impact on the school's placement numbers and thus gets more attention from OCS.

So the generally held perception is chicago > nyu?

Perception as measured by:

1. Firm placement ITE
2. Student quality
3. Faculty quality

miamiman wrote:So the generally held perception is chicago > nyu?

Perception as measured by:

1. Firm placement ITE
2. Student quality
3. Faculty quality

All but number 2, with number 3 unclear in the future b/c of reshuffling. For now Chicago wins on 1 and 3. NYU has a slight GPA advantage.

Renzo wrote:

Chicago is the stronger school in every economy. Most people will tell you that the only way that Chicago suffers in US News is the issue of per capita expenditures. NYU for instance spends way more money, but does not best Chicago in most other respects. For employment prospects Chicago seems to have more in common with Columbia than Berkeley. Outside of HYS I don't think there are any other schools that are "clearly" better than Chicago. Chicago's no. 6 ranking belies its true quality, which can be seen in its reputation scores, elite firm placement, clerkship placement and faculty ratings.

Oh, so you have an anecdote and a personal opinion? You must be right, then.

Don't get me wrong, UChi is a great school, and I am the first to argue that the USNWR lists have far less to do with reality than people think. But the discussion was about who is moving up and down the USNWR ranking, not about what schools are your favorite.

Rand M. wrote:Plus, the small size of Chicago gives it a distinct advantage ITE since firms can't afford to cut back on their Chicago grads nearly as much.

This is pretty silly. It assumes firms have some quota/ratio that they have to fill from each school. I generally agree that small classes are a hiring advantage, but not because of your imaginary quota system, but because each individual has more impact on the school's placement numbers and thus gets more attention from OCS.

That's strange--- all of the comments he made about Chicago's placement as compared to NYU's/Boalt's placement are facts (rep scores, firm placement, clerkships).

sandy10 wrote:

Renzo wrote:

Chicago is the stronger school in every economy. Most people will tell you that the only way that Chicago suffers in US News is the issue of per capita expenditures. NYU for instance spends way more money, but does not best Chicago in most other respects. For employment prospects Chicago seems to have more in common with Columbia than Berkeley. Outside of HYS I don't think there are any other schools that are "clearly" better than Chicago. Chicago's no. 6 ranking belies its true quality, which can be seen in its reputation scores, elite firm placement, clerkship placement and faculty ratings.

Oh, so you have an anecdote and a personal opinion? You must be right, then.

Don't get me wrong, UChi is a great school, and I am the first to argue that the USNWR lists have far less to do with reality than people think. But the discussion was about who is moving up and down the USNWR ranking, not about what schools are your favorite.

Rand M. wrote:Plus, the small size of Chicago gives it a distinct advantage ITE since firms can't afford to cut back on their Chicago grads nearly as much.

This is pretty silly. It assumes firms have some quota/ratio that they have to fill from each school. I generally agree that small classes are a hiring advantage, but not because of your imaginary quota system, but because each individual has more impact on the school's placement numbers and thus gets more attention from OCS.

That's strange--- all of the comments he made about Chicago's placement as compared to NYU's placement are facts (rep scores, firm placement, clerkships).

Thank you. I really don't think I said anything all that outlandish. Renzo says that I was off-topic, but the post that I was addressing posed the question of why people perceive Chicago>Berkeley. I was trying to show that there is a clear difference between those two; and I am pretty sure I did.

Rand M. wrote:

miamiman wrote:So the generally held perception is chicago > nyu?

Perception as measured by:

1. Firm placement ITE
2. Student quality
3. Faculty quality

All but number 2, with number 3 unclear in the future b/c of reshuffling. For now Chicago wins on 1 and 3. NYU has a slight GPA advantage.

I think you have to parse it a little finer.

Faculty quality is intangible, so there isn't really a way to measure it. I think you could look at individual fields and find one school stronger than the other, but there's no way to compare across the board in any meaningful way.

UChi puts out more academics, and more prestigious clerks. If you want to teach, it's a better choice.

As for biglaw, if you didn't care where you worked, UC would be a better choice. They place a higher percentage of grads in big firms (some of this is self-selection, but that doesn't matter). But, if you had a preference between Chicago and NYC as a permanent home, you'd be a fool not to go to school there.

Even in student quality, it's hard to argue. NYU has slightly better numbers, even with the bigger class. But UC tends to attract very academically-oriented students, so it depends how you define "student quality"

Bottom line is that if you are depending on a list or ranking to help you decide between these schools, you are being foolish. Both are good, but there are differences, so you should pick which you like. As for the list, NYU will continue to come out on top for a few years.

Rand M. wrote:

sandy10 wrote:
That's strange--- all of the comments he made about Chicago's placement as compared to NYU's placement are facts (rep scores, firm placement, clerkships).

Thank you. I really don't think I said anything all that outlandish. Renzo says that I was off-topic, but the post that I was addressing posed the question of why people perceive Chicago>Berkeley. I was trying to show that there is a clear difference between those two; and I am pretty sure I did.

Fair enough. I re-read your post, and there is still a fair amount of personal opinion, but you do make some reasonable and on-topic points about the failing of the USNWR system of rankings.

Top 5:

1. Cooley
2. Valparaiso
3. Phoenix School of Law
4. California Online Law School
5. Yale/Harvard/Stanford

I know it won't take effect in time for this April's rankings, but does anyone think Cornell's 52% increase in apps will cause its medians to rise by enough to jump a few slots?

..

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